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Hands up all the profiteering, reformist, anti-capitalist, Anarchists out there?!!

Jonezy

Tell 'em to fuck off
Easy everyone,

I come here, today, confused. Y'see I've just stepped out of the student bubble of living in Leeds student central, sitting around chatting theory, charity, and making a few changes and then I finish my degree and attempt to slip back into Derby life without caving in to the pressures of social conformity, blinkered consumption and the amoral routine of handling ones business.

So, I've been thinking quite alot about illegitimate authority and the process of decentralising power, the importance of the means reflecting the virtue of the ends they're attaining towards and the problems involved in attempting to escape systems of oppression and exploitation, whilst simultaneously attempting to maintain working social relationships - friendship, kinship, etc - with those who aren't necessarily motivated with regard to the plight of escaping, or changing the shape of such systems. This isn't a question of tolerance, I dont think, as I'm more than comfortable with disagreeing with others with regard to the differences of our opinion. This is more about the dilemma of actively supporting the hobbies and interests of those I care about, when their hobbies or interests may include attempting to make a little money in order to make ends meet.

In order to decentralise power do we make steady reforms so that we're steadily moving towards a more just society or do we wait until the climate of consciousness is ripe and rip shit up from the roots and start again? Do I support my independent trader in order to help readdress the concentration of power or do I do my all to be as self-sufficient as possible and thus withdraw my support from my independent trader? If someone I care about deeply is struggling to make ends meet, do I help them set up shop so that they can make themselves a few extra quid, feed their family and all the rest of it? Juicy ethical dilemmas, I'm currently feeling.

So, if we want to decentralise power from the hands of the state and into the hands of the people what do we do? What is possible, what is probable, what potential is there for change? Do we wait for a climate of revolution or do we attempt to make changes in the here and now, within the existing frameworks, with the hope that these structures of oppression shall make concessions, reform and shift shape, steadily becoming fairer and more legitimate until we reach a place we want to be? I think it would be a good idea to campaign for a more inclusive democracy, a deeper democracy that includes the electorate more regularly and on more decisions which affect their lives and their communities (all). This wouldn't be ideal but it would be more just than what we currently have.

The same question must be asked with regard to capitalism. Do we withdraw entirely from its logic or do we attempt to make it more ethical, working within the existing frameworks, attempting to transform it with the collective power we have as both producers and consumers? I think about this with regard to promoting ethical alternatives to the major capitalist centres of power, such as supporting small, local, independent, fairly traded, ethically produced goods. In doing so we're supporting capitalism but also encouraging more just alternatives which are founded on more humane principles than just capital accumulation. Something which is better to do than not do, obviously. Or is it?

Another point is that I've done my all to avoid selling my labour to the private sector and thus ironically find myself working for the state (Social Services), I also intend to become a teacher working for the state. A teacher of Sociology attempting to encourage the youth of the future to question the legitimacy of authority, the nature of the media, the motives of capital, the potential we all hold as social beings to flourish in cooperation with each other rather than competition. What dya reckon about that cheeky paradox? Working for the state, against the state?

So that's it really. I guess I'm starting to think that our political perspectives - Anarchist, Socialist, etc - provide us with a critique of existing problems plus the principles and ideals from which we can proceed, a benchmark to which we can hold up and compare our current position to our ideal position. What do you think?

I would imagine that some people really relate to how I'm feeling and that some people would be highly critical of how I'm feeling. I'm trying to find myself in this puzzling existence, aspiring to act with regard to my sense of what is right and wrong, whilst carefully treading that fine line between pragmatism and principle.

Please share your thoughts with me, point out the pitfalls with what I'm discussing and express anything else that's on your mind. Dont be nasty though, that aint the way to win people over to different ideas and is generally unnecessary.

Peace & Progress
Jonezy
 
"... Likewise, the demise of the noble anarchist, once huzzahed by the proletariat and feared by the ruling classes, working their mysterious ways, wearing their mysterious clothes, sidling to their mysterious meetings. Today's anarchist appears to be a well-to-do student, yet one who has chosen not to blow mama and papa's fortune on vintage port and single malt whisky, but on having mud and ordure smeared in their hair and rings places in their noses, leading one to believe that their natural habitat should be the farmyard. Their devotion to anarchy involves standing outside American eateries shouting rowdily and disturbing the peace, before sneaking off to a different American eatery for a bucket of greasy batter masquerading as chicken, then retreating to the Halls Of Residence to brag about how they so nearly brought down the Government, usually to a response of utter apathy from their fellow students."

"Anachronist In The UK" by Torquil Arbuthnot and Nathanial Slipper, The Chap Issue 20.
 
Jonezy said:
In order to decentralise power do we make steady reforms so that we're steadily moving towards a more just society or do we wait until the climate of consciousness is ripe and rip shit up from the roots and start again?

All the best reforms have been made by revolutioanaries. Discuss.

Jonezy said:
Do I support my independent trader in order to help readdress the concentration of power or do I do my all to be as self-sufficient as possible and thus withdraw my support from my independent trader? If someone I care about deeply is struggling to make ends meet, do I help them set up shop so that they can make themselves a few extra quid, feed their family and all the rest of it? Juicy ethical dilemmas, I'm currently feeling.

I think you're going all abstract about a very concrete decision that you may or may not want to talk about. If you detail it some will rip the shit out of you; if you don't you'll get no useful feedback.

Jonezy said:
capitalism: do we withdraw entirely from its logic...

You know a good spaceship manufacturer?

Jonezy said:
or do we attempt to make it more ethical, working within the existing frameworks, attempting to transform it with the collective power we have as both producers and consumers? I think about this with regard to promoting ethical alternatives to the major capitalist centres of power, such as supporting small, local, independent, fairly traded, ethically produced goods.

Fair trading and co-operatives and such are, of course, fairly rapidly recuperated.

The bit you leave out of what appears to be a kick-it-over / reform dichotomy you've set up, though, is the possible rôles of such activities - as well as well-conducted oppositionary campaigns - as big fat signs that there are other social relations beyond those imposed by capital, that another way is possible; as examplars perhaps; and even just as spaces of respite from capitalist relations.
 
laptop said:
Fair trading and co-operatives and such are, of course, fairly rapidly recuperated.

I'm a bit off-thread (I think :confused: ) but don't you think it's strange that nowadays we associate free trade with socially responsible ethical trading - rather than smuggling? Just a passing observation.
 
Derian said:
I'm a bit off-thread (I think :confused: ) but don't you think it's strange that nowadays we associate free trade with socially responsible ethical trading - rather than smuggling? Just a passing observation.
Did you mean free or fair?
 
pilchardman said:
Did you mean free or fair?

Oooer - you're so right.

Smuggling used to be known as fair-trading especially in Cornwall in the last century. Where did I come in with "free" trade?? *Scurries off to investigate*
 
pilchardman said:
Ah. Cheers for the history. I didn't know that.

I don't know if I'm right or not tbh. I'm just in the middle of reading "Vanishing Cornwall" by Daphne du Maurier - and laptop's post just coincided with the chapter I was reading on "Fair-Traders". Just happened to be in front of the pc at the time, impulsive post. But I'm still a bit freaked by my morphing it to free trade.
 
Jonezy said:
Easy everyone,

I come here, today, confused. Y'see I've just stepped out of the student bubble of living in Leeds student central, sitting around chatting theory, charity, and making a few changes and then I finish my degree and attempt to slip back into Derby life without caving in to the pressures of social conformity, blinkered consumption and the amoral routine of handling ones business.

So, I've been thinking quite alot about illegitimate authority and the process of decentralising power, the importance of the means reflecting the virtue of the ends they're attaining towards and the problems involved in attempting to escape systems of oppression and exploitation, whilst simultaneously attempting to maintain working social relationships - friendship, kinship, etc - with those who aren't necessarily motivated with regard to the plight of escaping, or changing the shape of such systems. This isn't a question of tolerance, I dont think, as I'm more than comfortable with disagreeing with others with regard to the differences of our opinion. This is more about the dilemma of actively supporting the hobbies and interests of those I care about, when their hobbies or interests may include attempting to make a little money in order to make ends meet.

In order to decentralise power do we make steady reforms so that we're steadily moving towards a more just society or do we wait until the climate of consciousness is ripe and rip shit up from the roots and start again? Do I support my independent trader in order to help readdress the concentration of power or do I do my all to be as self-sufficient as possible and thus withdraw my support from my independent trader? If someone I care about deeply is struggling to make ends meet, do I help them set up shop so that they can make themselves a few extra quid, feed their family and all the rest of it? Juicy ethical dilemmas, I'm currently feeling.

So, if we want to decentralise power from the hands of the state and into the hands of the people what do we do? What is possible, what is probable, what potential is there for change? Do we wait for a climate of revolution or do we attempt to make changes in the here and now, within the existing frameworks, with the hope that these structures of oppression shall make concessions, reform and shift shape, steadily becoming fairer and more legitimate until we reach a place we want to be? I think it would be a good idea to campaign for a more inclusive democracy, a deeper democracy that includes the electorate more regularly and on more decisions which affect their lives and their communities (all). This wouldn't be ideal but it would be more just than what we currently have.

The same question must be asked with regard to capitalism. Do we withdraw entirely from its logic or do we attempt to make it more ethical, working within the existing frameworks, attempting to transform it with the collective power we have as both producers and consumers? I think about this with regard to promoting ethical alternatives to the major capitalist centres of power, such as supporting small, local, independent, fairly traded, ethically produced goods. In doing so we're supporting capitalism but also encouraging more just alternatives which are founded on more humane principles than just capital accumulation. Something which is better to do than not do, obviously. Or is it?

Another point is that I've done my all to avoid selling my labour to the private sector and thus ironically find myself working for the state (Social Services), I also intend to become a teacher working for the state. A teacher of Sociology attempting to encourage the youth of the future to question the legitimacy of authority, the nature of the media, the motives of capital, the potential we all hold as social beings to flourish in cooperation with each other rather than competition. What dya reckon about that cheeky paradox? Working for the state, against the state?

So that's it really. I guess I'm starting to think that our political perspectives - Anarchist, Socialist, etc - provide us with a critique of existing problems plus the principles and ideals from which we can proceed, a benchmark to which we can hold up and compare our current position to our ideal position. What do you think?

I would imagine that some people really relate to how I'm feeling and that some people would be highly critical of how I'm feeling. I'm trying to find myself in this puzzling existence, aspiring to act with regard to my sense of what is right and wrong, whilst carefully treading that fine line between pragmatism and principle.

Please share your thoughts with me, point out the pitfalls with what I'm discussing and express anything else that's on your mind. Dont be nasty though, that aint the way to win people over to different ideas and is generally unnecessary.

Peace & Progress
Jonezy
Get a life, eh :rolleyes:
 
It's difficult not to be a bit hypocritical in this life if you're a good person.
There's precious little chance of achieving any major change in the way things work these days in this country.

Never thought I'd hear myself say, you can't change the system, but that's the way it looks. The country's out to rent. The system is genius,

Only way you can change the system is to win an election. The government's not going to stop being the government, and enforcing privilege of its own accord And given the general climate of cynicism, and manipulation of people by the media by whoever, there's not much chance of that. (Though there's nothing to stop it in principle.) YBut people tink they have to vote for Labour to stop the Tories getting back in . They've got us both ways. Older people just don't believe anything can be done about it, so they say, just get on with it.

Hope you can hold on to some of your idealism. It's good to see it.
Wait till the end of the world, and pray for the beginning of a new one,.

:)
 
lizzieloo said:
They attended my first wedding. I lived in the same block of flats. I somewhat upset them once by pointing out it's pronounced Zoonds, as in God's wounds which it is a contraction of.

off topic, but as there's been mention of smuggling and days of yore I thought I could slip it in.....
 
Derian said:
I'm a bit off-thread (I think :confused: ) but don't you think it's strange that nowadays we associate free trade with socially responsible ethical trading - rather than smuggling? Just a passing observation.

Smuggling is more fair than giving money to the state. Saying that, I'd prefer free distribution of all goods rather than trade.
 
Unlucky Jonezy, you're guilty of giving a shit, but you have choices available to you. No salt of the earth hod carrying for you, so your concerns are seen as "angst".

You're also guilty of using some flowery language - so you come across as a bit poncey - which hasn't helped you to get serious answers.....

(am on me lunch break, and only have about 2 minutes left, so that's all the answers I can give - no internet access at work for me :( )
 
the above related more to the thread in protest than this one - seems there have been a few serious attempts here :oops:

the way i see it, life's an ongoing struggle - assessing how what you do is useful, how it fits with your ethics, what wider benefits come from it, etc, are questions that you'll always struggle with if the choices available to you are wide.

the wider the choices the more decisions.

everyone needs to make ends meet. unless you're incredibly priviledged, then you need money for rent or a mortgage, money to pay bills, money for food, clothes, transport, socialising and entertainment.

the rent can be got round if you're prepared to set yourself against the authorities by, eg, squatting - but this comes at the risk of potentially alienating the very people you want to maintain and enhance social relationships with.

so, for the bulk of people, getting a job is a given.

because you have an education, you have a wider choice of ways of earning money. because you have a conscience, this choice becomes complex.

it's always worth keeping a sense of perspective about all of this though. none of your individual choices are going to produce the revolution, nor are they likely to make capital screw people over (more that it already does).

blah, sorry, not got much else to say.
 
Jonezy said:
Please share your thoughts with me, point out the pitfalls with what I'm discussing and express anything else that's on your mind. Dont be nasty though, that aint the way to win people over to different ideas and is generally unnecessary.

Why don't you just work out what you'd be good at and would enjoy doing, and then try and do it. If you manage this, you'll soon stop worrying about the ideological implications.
 
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