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Greece. The inconvenient referendum...

weltweit

weltweit

Well-Known Member
So it seems Sarkozy and Merkel are furious with Greece for promising this referendum and no one knows yet what the question on the voting paper will be.

Will it be "do you approve of this final bailout and all that it entails?"

Or will it be "do you want to remain in the Euro Zone?"
 
Apparently Papandreou is calling a vote of confidence which could scupper the whole thing ...
bbc said:
He has called a confidence motion in parliament on Friday. With a majority of just two MPs since the defection of Ms Apostolaki, any victory would be on a knife edge. If he loses the vote, the government would break down and no referendum would take place at all.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15561153
Click to expand...
 
Not getting bailed out will fuck them big time. It's shit, but they're fucked if they don't get bailed out.
 
China is officially out of the bailout, which makes choosing the Euro option that less a proposition - where's the money for this euro bailout coming from?

I was thinking about this, don't know if this is right, but first off on Friday (tomorrow) theres a vote of confidence. If the vote goes No Confidence then the IMF step in and run a program more in tune with the EU plans.

That means if you're anti EU in the Greek parliament you'll vote Yes to a confidence vote in order to get out of the EU at the Referendum.

The Referendum manages to achieve two things for the Papandreou's party: it encourages anti EU politicians to vote Yes to a Confidence vote <thats good for Papanderou.

Then secondly when it comes to the Referendum (if it get thats far) whatever happens its going to hurt Greece. By passing the decision on to the public it means they have to shoulder the responsibility for what happens. Both options are looking like a disaster. So it looks like a really shrewed political move on a national level, in that it gets him and his party off the hook a bit, and also defuses just a little of the explosive nature of the outcome (because a referendum makes the public share the responsibility).

Thats my take for what its worth.
 
euro is fucked , and the eu with it .

Papandreou summoned to Sarkozys court like a naughty schoolboy . The tyrannical little cunt will probably bomb greece next .
 
Yep, the people of Greece are fucked whatever happens.

At the same time, all this has been useful at stipping bare what the euro is really all about; the lack of democracy or regard for democracy, the imperialism, the plain greed and arrogance of Merkel and Sarkozy and the interests they represent - few illusions left concerning the 'euro project' now.
 
It's the right thing to do i reckon.

Greece seems incapacitated with civil unrest at the moment- quite rightly, people have to fork out for the excess of bankers, and he doesn't have a mandate to govern (majority only 2).

The Greek people should be empowered to determine which course they would like their country to take.

Sure France and Germany are concerned about the markets, but their attitude towards the position Papandreu is in is quite a shocker.

Germany seems to enjoy putting the Greeks in such a tight financial squeeze.

Seems quite ironic when you consider how they kicked off at Britain and France over a similar squeeze in the 1920-30s.
 
Also, from The Guardian:

But the democratic deficit has now tipped over into a democratic crisis. To protect the banks that lent to Greece and protected its elite from unwelcome tax demands, the country is being systematically stripped of its sovereignty, as EU and IMF officials swarm over its ministries drafting budgets, setting policy deadlines, "advising" on tax and pushing through state selloffs.
No wonder nationalist anger is growing.
Click to expand...
They're flying in from all over Europe to takeover Greek Ministries. Extraordinary.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/02/elite-europe-model-failed
 
151 mps now, one more mrs Kaili just announced that she resigns. This government will not last until Friday and it seems there is no referendum.
 
It certainly looks as if Greece is going to be leaving the Euro and possibly the EU. Maybe Turkey would be a good replacement.
 
PASOK is asking for a grand coalition yes the question is if the conservative party will accept it. Other parties like the far right LAOS and the neoliberal Dimokratiki Symaxia have already said that they want this coalition but it cannot happen without the conservatives.

There are rumors that within an hour the prime minister while he will be in meeting with his ministers that he will announce that he resigns and he will ask for all the ministers to resign as well and a new government will be formed.

Mate Turkey will be the next Greece in 10 or 15 years time, you will see it coming. They are a much bigger country with a much bigger economy than Greece, if a greek default may even crash the Eurozone imagine what a turkish default may mean .
 
Paul Mason's report on Newsnight was fascinating last night. One of the fallouts from 'Greece', whichever way it plays out, it that de-globalisation is now firmly back on the agenda with national governments (and peoples) beginning to look to national rather than global solutions to their debt crises. The neo liberal plan - we'll bale you out in return for a generation of austerity, cuts, poverty, youth unemployment - is being comprehnsively rejected. It clearly can't be sold to the Greek people.

Whilst posing obvious threats (Mason's film compared events now to the 1930's and the eventual rise of fascism and world war) it could also represent the beginning of the end for the neo liberal project. We could be entering a new period of currency wars, trade barriers - British Jobs for British Workers style, Government owned banks being made to focus on domestic rather than global matters and in short an end of the neo liberal hegemony.

As Paul Mason puts it "anybody with even remote knowledge of the early 1930s knows that the moment street politics within a nation start dictating its stance at international summits is the moment you have to worry about the global system fragmenting".
 
kabbes said:
What's fascinating is the way certain individuals and institutions have reacted with unbridled and untrammeled horror at the mere idea that a country may make its decisions democratically, rather than having them decided by a neoliberal elite from other countries.
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What's fascinating for me is that a decision that that affects a large community is being made by only a small fraction of the population of that community and being held up as a glowing example of democracy.
 
Will the centre right parties win a General Election in Greece?
Is their a possibilitiy of the a more radical left party doing well?
 
kabbes said:
What's fascinating is the way certain individuals and institutions have reacted with unbridled and untrammeled horror at the mere idea that a country may make its decisions democratically, rather than having them decided by a neoliberal elite from other countries.
Click to expand...

Indeed - because they know where this could lead and end.
 
Fuchs66 said:
What's fascinating for me is that a decision that that affects a large community is being made by only a small fraction of the population of that community and being held up as a glowing example of democracy.
Click to expand...
That large community knew what it was doing when it decided it wanted to own the debt of the smaller community. It wants the benefits of the neoliberal dream without having to deal with its risks. Well tough.
 
Wrong. And why, given the results didn't endorse austerity (nor have the polls since) is it being imposed? Have you a tinyurl to explain that?
 
kabbes said:
That large community knew what it was doing when it decided it wanted to own the debt of the smaller community. It wants the benefits of the neoliberal dream without having to deal with its risks. Well tough.
Click to expand...
TBH I fear it will be tough, but the Greeks will find it tougher than most if they vote against the Euro. Despite the wet dreams some of you are having I see them slipping more in the direction of Nationalism and the far right rather than Socialism.
 
Fuchs66 said:
TBH I fear it will be tough, but the Greeks will find it tougher than most if they vote against the Euro. Despite the wet dreams some of you are having I see them slipping more in the direction of Nationalism and the far right rather than Socialism.
Click to expand...
That's up to them to decide though.
 
kabbes said:
That's up to them to decide though.
Click to expand...
True and good luck to them but I see the future being less pleasant for the Greeks outside the Euro (even though inside wont be much better but at least may be able to provide some stability). Anyway from the German news thats on in the background here looks like in the next couple of hours Papandreou will be throwing the towel in.
 
Kaka Tim said:
Will the centre right parties win a General Election in Greece?
Is their a possibilitiy of the a more radical left party doing well?
Click to expand...

They will get first party in votes but not manage to form a government by themselves.

SYRIZA (reformist left) and KKE (stalinist) may get more votes yes, but it seems that the majority of the people will not vote at all as they are fed up will all political parties. Anyway there are a lot of developments happening in very short time so lets wait a bit for political estimations
 
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