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Fountain pen - recommendations

Cid said:
It could just as easily be that the fresh change of ink when you retested your pens fixed any of the flow problems from neglect etc though...
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This really isn't a one-off experience; I've switched back and forth between Diamine and Noodlers several times in some of the pens; that doesn't explain why my pens write 'fatter' if they're filled with Noodlers; and it also doesn't explain why that's my consistent experience with my dip pen, too.

It also strikes me as quite unremarkable that different inks might have different properties...
 
Nah, I agree - I'm sure they do. Just be interesting to do some tests as to what they are, whether different inks work better on different papers etc. Few interesting noodler-related things on ebay, this bloke sells from the US: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/greenman508/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686 and you can get samples in the UK from here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/INK-SAMPL...ent_SM&var=&hash=item7219a58daa#ht_859wt_1396, at 1.50 for 2ml they're not exactly cheap mind you.

e2a: Also know what you mean about Diamine seeming quite watery, although I suspect they'd call it tonal variation or something.
 
Well the Esterbrook (not quite far gone enough to call them 'Esties' yet) turned up - 1948 double jewel with a 9128 nib (same as Athos I think - EF flex). It's fine for general writing, you need to put a decent pressure on it to get the flex - perhaps a little scratchy. I've been playing with roundhand style calligraphy, but it's a bit counter-intuitive so far - with Chancery all the variation in thickness is based on a fairly normal grip - the pen nib is always around 4 or 5 o'clock and variation in thickness comes from the width of the nib. Roundhand seems all wrong - the thick strokes are on leftward-slanting 'uprights', so you'd have to hold your pen with nib at 7ish, which is clearly insane. This is presumably why cranked nibs are used. You're also limited by where you can apply the flex as the extra pressure does not make a good bedfellow with fibrous paper - only really like flexing with a downward stroke. Still, nice pen and I'm sure I'll find my way with a bit of practice.
 
Cid said:
Well the Esterbrook (not quite far gone enough to call them 'Esties' yet) turned up - 1948 double jewel with a 9128 nib (same as Athos I think - EF flex). It's fine for general writing, you need to put a decent pressure on it to get the flex - perhaps a little scratchy. I've been playing with roundhand style calligraphy, but it's a bit counter-intuitive so far - with Chancery all the variation in thickness is based on a fairly normal grip - the pen nib is always around 4 or 5 o'clock and variation in thickness comes from the width of the nib. Roundhand seems all wrong - the thick strokes are on leftward-slanting 'uprights', so you'd have to hold your pen with nib at 7ish, which is clearly insane. This is presumably why cranked nibs are used. You're also limited by where you can apply the flex as the extra pressure does not make a good bedfellow with fibrous paper - only really like flexing with a downward stroke. Still, nice pen and I'm sure I'll find my way with a bit of practice.
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Surprised that you should need a lot of pressure. Do the numbers run up (rather than across) the nib? I've heard they're stiffer.
 
mrs quoad said:
On the other hand, Noodlers look a lot thicker. As if they have a whole lot more pigment in them. Like liquid pigment, rather than pigmented / dyed water, IYSWIM. But they seem to flow a lot more readily. That may be down to surfactants, as Fridgey said, IIRC...?
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They do have a lot more pigment in them, as well as some surfactants - they are very thick. It's a deliberate decision to result in them giving a very dense, even colour, which is something that not all people like.

One result of this is that you can easily dilute them without changing the colour much - this reduces the amount that they spread on the paper, too, and also the drying time (which can be absurd with some of them). I usually mix Bulletproof Black with about 50% tapwater.

Diamine inks are generally a lot more "trad" in manufacture, which is why they're recommended for vintage pens by many restorers etc. (There are some Diamines which are pen-cloggers, though - their Blue Black always does it for me - but they aren't going to ruin the actual pen, just make it need de-clogging.)

In general, though, problems with _flow_, skipping and starting, are more likely to be pen than ink. Some are finicky, but Safaris, I wouldn't think so. If I'm having trouble I test with Waterman Blue or Blue Black, which are notoriously even and pen-friendly, and if there are still issues I look at the pen. Most of the time one or more soapy flushes fixes it. Sometimes the nib needs to be taken out and reseated because it's out of alignment and not letting ink through properly. Occasionally it's just that the pen has a "sweet spot" that's awkward to find.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
They do have a lot more pigment in them, as well as some surfactants - they are very thick.

...

In general, though, problems with _flow_, skipping and starting, are more likely to be pen than ink. Some are finicky, but Safaris, I wouldn't think so. If I'm having trouble I test with Waterman Blue or Blue Black, which are notoriously even and pen-friendly, and if there are still issues I look at the pen. Most of the time one or more soapy flushes fixes it. Sometimes the nib needs to be taken out and reseated because it's out of alignment and not letting ink through properly. Occasionally it's just that the pen has a "sweet spot" that's awkward to find.
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So thickness doesn't affect flow?

I'd gladly bet that if I refilled my Safari with either oxblood, that brown or sapphire blue (all Diamine) the problems with ink flow would reappear.

That's an experience that's consistently borne out by my glass dipping pen - I can't see how that could conceivably be due to e.g. the fixed nib needing reseating. Yet when I first started writing with thinner inks, it was profoundly difficult and, yep, had a sweet spot. Or just scratched a lot. Dip it in Noodlers, and WHOOSH. 2-3 sentences per dip of lush, phat, consistent lines.
 
Cid said:
http://www.andys-pens.co.uk/index.shtml

Crap website, but very good service (well, not used him myself, but others have) and some more obscure/vintage stuff - lots of Parkers.
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I appreciate Andy as a vintage seller & one man band, but've found him quite slow & unresponsive. Iirc, it took him several days to a week post-payment (which itself was after an email exchange about what i wanted to order, bc email exchanges are THE only way to order) to come back to me & say "oops, we don't have any Sailor EF nibs, and won't have any for 2-3 months."

Whilst the writing desk were incredibly responsive, & delivered the same pen in 1-2 days including a non-standard / Sailor-disapproved nib / body combination. (iirc, Andy wasn't keen on doing that, but I might be mistaken.)
 
mrs quoad said:
Different inks really do write differently. Erm, I don't understand quite what's going on or how to describe it (FM or VP almost certainly can), but despite looking thinner / more watery, Diamine inks don't seem to flow as well in my pens. So, like, they're absolutely fine with my favourite nibs (Sailor, Platinum Carbon, Nakaya, all F->EF) but some of the others seem to struggle a bit. IIRC the Lamy 2000 wasn't getting on well with them, and both the Cross and Safari really struggled to put down anything like a nice / consistent line (see the pic above).

On the other hand, Noodlers look a lot thicker. As if they have a whole lot more pigment in them. Like liquid pigment, rather than pigmented / dyed water, IYSWIM. But they seem to flow a lot more readily. That may be down to surfactants, as Fridgey said, IIRC...?

I try to avoid them where possible, because they 'fatten' the line put down by my nibs, too. So an EF with Noodlers writes more like an F with Diamine. But, irritatingly, they do seem to work far better for my more awkward / less stonking pens.
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Surfactants in the ink act like emulsifiers in food - they help keep everything blended together. The physical properties of surfactants are such that they would to some degree, faciltate the "cleaning" or clearing of the feeder and/or pen nib, too.
 
mrs quoad said:
So thickness doesn't affect flow?
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It isn't necessarily that they are thick and gloopy, just have a high concentration of whatever dyes or Soylent Green actually go into the ink, as well as whatever else goes into the stuff to keep it flowing. (This is all complicated by the fact that Nathan doesn't really tell people what he does to make the inks beyond the bare minimum, and sometimes not even that. They also vary between colours and types IME.)

One thing I do know is that Noodler's inks aren't pigment-in-suspension inks in the same way as, say, the carbon inks. Those can be awful for pens if they start to get dry. I have some old Kiwa-Guro that I suspect needs a little water added to it now, because where it used to give an incredibly smooth flow, now it can be quite spotty.
 
OK... so... you DO think... that properties of an ink (if not the 'thickness')... can have an impact on how it writes?
 
I don't think there's a perfect pen, ink or paper. The results of writing depends upon how they work together. But, if I had to pick a consistently reliable setup (on a budget) it would be Diamine ink in a Lamy Safari, on Rhodia paper.
 
Cid said:
Well the Esterbrook (not quite far gone enough to call them 'Esties' yet) turned up - 1948 double jewel with a 9128 nib (same as Athos I think - EF flex). It's fine for general writing, you need to put a decent pressure on it to get the flex - perhaps a little scratchy. I've been playing with roundhand style calligraphy, but it's a bit counter-intuitive so far - with Chancery all the variation in thickness is based on a fairly normal grip - the pen nib is always around 4 or 5 o'clock and variation in thickness comes from the width of the nib. Roundhand seems all wrong - the thick strokes are on leftward-slanting 'uprights', so you'd have to hold your pen with nib at 7ish, which is clearly insane. This is presumably why cranked nibs are used. You're also limited by where you can apply the flex as the extra pressure does not make a good bedfellow with fibrous paper - only really like flexing with a downward stroke. Still, nice pen and I'm sure I'll find my way with a bit of practice.
Click to expand...

Surprised that you should need a lot of pressure. Do the numbers run up (rather than across) the nib? I've heard they're stiffer. And you could also use a bit of 12000 micro mesh to take any scratch of the nib.
 
Ah experts...

I just had to write 35 letters on some kind of parchment paper with a cheap Lamy (about 16 quids worth) for work. Man, my hands hurt. Should have read this thread recently and got a Safari.

Anyway, what's a quick way to unclog fibres from the nib? I was doing the old upside down drag and to run it under the tap occasionally, any other tricks? I've another 40 on Tuesday. I think my nib is too fine for the paper to be honest - it's an F. ..

Pen_is.jpg
 
Athos said:
Surprised that you should need a lot of pressure. Do the numbers run up (rather than across) the nib? I've heard they're stiffer.
Click to expand...

Yeah they do. Might look at making some tweaks... Flow rate when flexed could be better too really. Actually I think one side of the nib is riding up slightly, might have to take it into work for closer inspection under my magnifying lamp (yeah, see how I can just drop my ownership of a magnifying lamp into conversation... sliiick).
 
Cid said:
Yeah they do. Might look at making some tweaks... Flow rate when flexed could be better too really. Actually I think one side of the nib is riding up slightly, might have to take it into work for closer inspection under my magnifying lamp (yeah, see how I can just drop my ownership of a magnifying lamp into conversation... sliiick).
Click to expand...

That explains wh it is a little more stiff, I suppose.

One beauty of the Esties is that they're cheap enough to tinker with. Often, though, it's hard to adjust the flow by repositioning the nib on the feed: look for a little dent where they have been crimped together; if there isn't one, you're in luck, as it's much easier.

Magnifying lamp. Cool!

I very nearly bought another Estie today. It was a single jewelled J series, in lovely condition, with a 9550 nib.

It was in a thrift store, where it was marked up for $46, but, by the end the woman was offering it for $30, and I reckon I'd have got it for $25 cash (keeping tax out of it!). That's about £15.

Didn't go for it as I'd already bought a lovely vintage Sheaffer, today. But, I'm kicking myself already!
 
mrs quoad said:
I've spent a large portion of this afternoon writing in Nakaya F and Sailor EF, alternate paragraphs, trying to work out which I prefer :D

It's kinda come down to actually, genuinely preferring the EF. Largely for practical reasons. I just don't smudge anything, ever with an EF. And apart from that, the writing's pretty similar. (F looks more... conventional... but I kinda prefer EF writing :hmm: )
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After 2 weeks & 3 emails, it turns out they don't do an EF soft flex, only an elastic flex. Which involves nibbling bits out of the side, creates LOADS of flex, and is +$100.

Ms Kono also offered to make an F flex nib a bit thinner, so I've gone for that. Delivery still expected in June :D
 
mrs quoad said:
After 2 weeks & 3 emails, it turns out they don't do an EF soft flex, only an elastic flex. Which involves nibbling bits out of the side, creates LOADS of flex, and is +$100.

Ms Kono also offered to make an F flex nib a bit thinner, so I've gone for that. Delivery still expected in June :D
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I'm excited on your behalf!
 
Athos said:
I'm excited on your behalf!
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Don't get too excited - it's still 6-8 weeks, at an optimistic guess :D

Must say, though, I haven't stopped using the Briar wood pen... The nib is just stonking. Just lays out a beautiful, consistent line with a luvverly bit of feedback from the paper.

If the rolled string 'un is anything like that nice, I might end up thinning my pen collection because the others'll just be going unused.
 
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