Fitna the movie

[Dhimmi]

NSFW!

Geert Wilders’ film about the Quran ;Removed from Youtube, taken down from live leak after threats against their staff, but still on google video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2949546475561399959&hl=en

Free Speech? Fair Comment? Or incitement to hatred?

I've only watched a bit so far and it does seem fairly emotive...

 

[frogwoman]

They should just leave them alone for fuck's sake. I'd be pretty pissed off about if some fucker made a film about how "evil" the Torah and Talmud were. Some people seem to be interested in creating "news" and controversy for the sake of it ...

 

[krow]

Fitna is the Zionist's 'The Eternal Jew'. You have to understand that 'Free speech' is Zionists criticising anyone they like, and 'Hate speech' is anyone criticising Zionists.

 

[Poi E]

Two prominent murders in the Netherlands by muslim nutters means that Wilders is far from alone in his feelings in the Netherlands. I'm surprised there is not more forthright condemnation of Islam in NL.

I'll definately check this out.

edit: I stand corrected when it comes to the murder of Fortuyn. He was killed by a Dutchman. Mea culpa..should get my facts right before shooting off.

 

[Lock&Light]

Two prominent murders in the Netherlands by muslim nutters means that Wilders is far from alone in his feelings in the Netherlands. I'm surprised there is not more forthright condemnation of Islam in NL.

I'll definately check this out.

edit: I stand corrected when it comes to the murder of Fortuyn. He was killed by a Dutchman. Mea culpa..should get my facts right before shooting off.

Theo Van Gogh was also murdered by a Dutchman.

 

[Fictionist]

NSFW!

Geert Wilders’ film about the Quran ;Removed from Youtube, taken down from live leak after threats against their staff, but still on google video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2949546475561399959&hl=en

Free Speech? Fair Comment? Or incitement to hatred?

I've only watched a bit so far and it does seem fairly emotive...

The film isn't about the Koran, it makes only five direct references to the text (8,60 /4,56 / 47,4 / 4,89 / 8,39), It is rather an interpretation of what those specific points can lead to.

Should it be available to view? Yes. Without question.

 

[Poi E]

Theo Van Gogh was also murdered by a Dutchman.

Yeah, but a muslim one.

 

[selamlar]

Some people seem to be interested in creating "news" and controversy for the sake of it ...

Quite. Its the same as the recurring story of Denmark and the cartoons, although Wilder's attempts to big up his own dirty little film by linking it to the Danish thing didn't exactly go down very well.

http://www.ambottawa.um.dk/en/servicemenu/News/DanishgovernmentsreactionstoMrWildersfilmFitna.htm

http://nizars.com/2008/03/28/danish-cartoonist-to-sue-over-fitna-film/

In the spirit of repeating old stories, I will repeat what I said at the time.

Its not a serious attempt to provoke discussion, its a deliberate and calculated attempt to offend.
The best simile I can think of off the top of my head is my old chemistry teacher, who never wore a watch. When he turned his back on us to write on the board, we would change the time on the classroom clock. Eventually, and without fail, he would fly off the handle in a proper, arm waving, saliva spraying wobber. Seems like great fun, until you grow up. They know it will get a reaction. They know what that reaction will be. They know there will be some flag burning and some good photos of angry darkies for the evening news. Its a bullshit attempt at shit stirring, and should be treated as such

(PS. Not that I would wish to equate anyone in the world with Mr F. Some things are beyond the pale)

 

[Poi E]

Flyingplanes into buildings is a more effective way to offend.

 

[Fictionist]

Quite. Its the same as the recurring story of Denmark and the cartoons, although Wilder's attempts to big up his own dirty little film by linking it to the Danish thing didn't exactly go down very well.

http://www.ambottawa.um.dk/en/servicemenu/News/DanishgovernmentsreactionstoMrWildersfilmFitna.htm

http://nizars.com/2008/03/28/danish-cartoonist-to-sue-over-fitna-film/

In the spirit of repeating old stories, I will repeat what I said at the time.

If we accept that it was designed to provoke - does that make any questions which arise from the film any less valid for consideration?

 

[Aldebaran]

If we accept that it was designed to provoke - does that make any questions which arise from the film any less valid for consideration?

mm... Which questions?

All this overcalled fool did was making himself look like a greater fool he was already taken for. In fact, the whole thing is an enormous anticlimax after the pre-launch hype he managed to create about it in the Dutch government and among the public.(There is a reason why I always say that The Netherlands is the USA of Europe when it comes to creating much drama over nothing and gullability up to government echelon.)

Anyone can make a collage of existing images (and I think he risks to be sued by both the cartoon artist and by a Dutch (?) singer he wrongly portrayed in the film as someone with connections to terrorists)
His "references" to Al Qur'an are the usual one can find in any Islamophobic publication.
Fragmented incomplete and completely out of context and then linked to what he wants people to see in them.

I couldn't help myself to waste 15 minutes of my life to look at this ridiculous cheap rubbish. Sometimes my common sense gets overruled

If you want to discuss Islam, please do. But do your intellect a favour and don't take the Great Wilders Nonsense for anything else than what it is: zero below zero in the infinite.
Well... the music was not all that bad.

salaam.

 

[Lock&Light]

If you want to discuss Islam, please do. But do your intellect a favour and don't take the Great Wilders Nonsense for anything else than what it is: zero below zero in the infinite.
Well... the music was not all that bad.

salaam.

Do you want to discuss the many examples portrayed of Islamists screaming for the death of disbelievers?

 

[Dhimmi]

Fitna is the Zionist's 'The Eternal Jew'. You have to understand that 'Free speech' is Zionists criticising anyone they like, and 'Hate speech' is anyone criticising Zionists.

Hmmm you're playing the same card you suggest Zionists do.

How is a Catholic a zionist?

If you want to discuss Islam, please do. But do your intellect a favour and don't take the Great Wilders Nonsense for anything else than what it is: zero below zero in the infinite.

Well thanks for the tips on how to think, tbh the film was nothing special, the threats of violence against it and especially those against liveleak for daring to host it were much more informative.

 

[Aldebaran]

Well thanks for the tips on how to think, tbh the film was nothing special, the threats of violence against it and especially those against liveleak for daring to host it were much more informative.

Informative on or about what?

salaam.

 

[Fictionist]

mm... Which questions?


His "references" to Al Qur'an are the usual one can find in any Islamophobic publication.
Fragmented incomplete and completely out of context and then linked to what he wants people to see in them.

If you want to discuss Islam, please do. But do your intellect a favour and don't take the Great Wilders Nonsense for anything else than what it is: zero below zero in the infinite.
Well... the music was not all that bad.

salaam.

I try not to make any assumptions but I would imagine that your answer indicates that you might possibly be Muslim? The reason I ask this is because you mention the fact that they have been taken completely out of context - presumably you are referring to the Islamic framework which seeks to explain the context and circumstances in which each verse was revealed - and from which a meaning or analogy can be inferred?

 

[Aldebaran]

Do you want to discuss the many examples portrayed of Islamists screaming for the death of disbelievers?

You mean those copied and pasted in the Wilders nonsense or those portrayed as such in the general Western media or those portrayed elswhere and without cutting and editing (including eventual mistranslating) of what exactly is being said and/or referred to?

By the way, the Wilders nonsense had also scenes of ashura, the Shia day of remembrance of imam Hussain. You know, those cleverly inserted scenes with blood covered sword wealding men, women, children (and one woman smiling at her son covered in blood). The same type of pictures taken at ashura festivities popped up in the Western media right after the 9/11 attacks.
Both Wilders and those Western media knew exactly what was going on when those pictures were taken.
Do you want to discuss that too, or is that a tad inconvenient?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

I try not to make any assumptions but I would imagine that your answer indicates that you might possibly be Muslim?

Yes and Islam was my first academic discipline too.

salaam.

 

[Fictionist]

Yes and Islam was my first academic discipline too.

salaam.

I thought so.

For the moment can we concentrate on the issue of the verses having been taken out of context? By this do you believe that the verses are rooted to a particular and quite specific set of historical circumstances and conditions? And do you also believe that the explanations provided within an Islamic framework are accurate and contemporary to that which they purport to explain?

 

[likesfish]

behead anyone who claims islam isn't a religion of peace

ffs its not like its real or anything

 

[Aldebaran]

By this do you believe that the verses are rooted to a particular and quite specific set of historical circumstances and conditions? And do you also believe that the explanations provided within an Islamic framework are accurate and contemporary to that which they purport to explain?

Every single verse in Al Qur'an inevitably has its historical context.
Of course any exegesis (Ar. tafsir) needs to have the text itself in the centre of attention, holding it against its context and historical reference, the tafsir of the Prophet himself and the tafsir of a variety of earlier scholars.

When for example I'm asked to explain a certain passage (or even one word) I need to have all that in mind and above all must carefully examine what my idea of the meaning looks like when held against the central message of the whole of Al Qur'an (= what God's Message is).
Any explanation that goes against that core issue is invalid. That is why the interpretations of Radicals are easily disarmed. Which doesn't mean those who follow such ideas would be easily convinced they are in fact violating the command they claim to follow. Every text you think of can be given a twisted meaning or interpretation to serve a certain specific goal.

salaam.

 

[Lock&Light]

You mean those copied and pasted in the Wilders nonsense or those portrayed as such in the general Western media or those portrayed elswhere and without cutting and editing (including eventual mistranslating) of what exactly is being said and/or referred to?

By the way, the Wilders nonsense had also scenes of ashura, the Shia day of remembrance of imam Hussain. You know, those cleverly inserted scenes with blood covered sword wealding men, women, children (and one woman smiling at her son covered in blood). The same type of pictures taken at ashura festivities popped up in the Western media right after the 9/11 attacks.
Both Wilders and those Western media knew exactly what was going on when those pictures were taken.
Do you want to discuss that too, or is that a tad inconvenient?

salaam.

I'm no Wilders supporter, but such wilful blindness as you are displaying is reflected by the pro-Islam factions and is going to inevitably lead to Wilders electoral success.

Something must be done!

 

[Lock&Light]

That is why the interpretations of Radicals are easily disarmed.

Where it but so.

 

[Aldebaran]

Where it but so.

It is. The difficult part is to make them listen. A minor detail.

salaam.

 

[Lock&Light]

Every text you think of can be given a twisted meaning or interpretation to serve a certain specific goal.

And that's what makes such texts exceedingly unsuitable for dogmatic declarations.

 

[Aldebaran]

And that's what makes such texts exceedingly unsuitable for dogmatic declarations.

Depends which dogma you declare.

salaam.

 

[Lock&Light]

It is. The difficult part is to make them listen. A minor detail.

That's no different to what dogmatic communists said even while their ship was sinking.

 

[Lock&Light]

Depends which dogma you declare.

So the answer to my question has proved to be 'no'.

 

[Aldebaran]

Of course it is no. In the end every dogma comes to rely on text, be it transferred oral or in writing.
By the way, the ship of Islam isn't sinking. It is actually getting wings instead.

salaam.

 

[Fictionist]

Every single verse in Al Qur'an inevitably has its historical context.
Of course any exegesis (Ar. tafsir) needs to have the text itself in the centre of attention, holding it against its context and historical reference, the tafsir of the Prophet himself and the tafsir of a variety of earlier scholars.

When for example I'm asked to explain a certain passage (or even one word) I need to have all that in mind and above all must carefully examine what my idea of the meaning looks like when held against the central message of the whole of Al Qur'an (= what God's Message is).
Any explanation that goes against that core issue is invalid. That is why the interpretations of Radicals are easily disarmed. Which doesn't mean those who follow such ideas would be easily convinced they are in fact violating the command they claim to follow. Every text you think of can be given a twisted meaning or interpretation to serve a certain specific goal.

salaam.

So if I understand you correctly, you accept that the revelation of the Koran, and the text as it now exists, are one and the same thing. You also accept that the Islamic framework which exists to explain the circumstances and details pertaining to each verse are valid and accurate, that each verse can be fully explained by reference to the ahadith and the works of scholars?

 

[Aldebaran]

So if I understand you correctly, you accept that the revelation of the Koran, and the text as it now exists, are one and the same thing. You also accept that the Islamic framework which exists to explain the circumstances and details pertaining to each verse are valid and accurate, that each verse can be fully explained by reference to the ahadith and the works of scholars?

mmm... No. You jump to conclusions, which isn't all that original nor is it something I didn't expect to happen. You are a new member, so you can't know better
I am a scholar. I am also historian, among others. (hint: My first doctoral research & thesis had as subject the history of Al Qur'an as text.)

salaam.