First Sikh Court To Be Established In Britain: London

[Nigel]

I don't know if this is a good or bad thing.
I can see positives and negatives on both sides.

Although Sikhism as far has it's positive enlightened and progressive side, there is also a foundation on social conservatism and reactionary outlook on many issues: An example from the past could be the Kiranjit Ahluwalia case where initially the Sikh and Southern Asian communities closed ranks however under pressure from feminist and secular groups many changed their perspective.

Also with the controversies concerning Kh*l!stan movement and it;s openly,anti progressive liberal critical anti left and petty bourgeois outlook; I've heard those sympathetic and supportive of Kh*l!stan describe liberalism as the grass in which the snake of communism thrives.
There is also chauvinism, if not outright racism towards other ethnic and religious groups by Sikhs, significantly in the Punjab towards Muslims and semi authorisation of caste system, although denounced by Sikh scripture and founding practice such as with landowning farmers The Jatts.

The world is getting its first Sikh court in London. That’s a threat to women’s rights - Europe Solidaire Sans Frontières

With the UK judicial system cut to breaking point, conservative religious forces are moving into a space vacated by the state On 1 June 2024, (…)

www.europe-solidaire.org

https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2007/04/30/changing-times-an-interview-with-kiranjit-ahluwalia-about-domestic-violence-2/​

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There already exist similar Sharia and Jewish courts. Historically, this is a bit of a leftover from a time when the main judicial system was explicitly Christian, so providing minority religions with their own courts for certain affairs made some sense. I would argue that they are anachronistic and would like to see them all abolished.

 

[JimW]

Sikh my lawyers on you

 

[tonysingh]

I don't know if this is a good or bad thing.
I can see positives and negatives on both sides.

Although Sikhism as far has it's positive enlightened and progressive side, there is also a foundation on social conservatism and reactionary outlook on many issues: An example from the past could be the Kiranjit Ahluwalia case where initially the Sikh and Southern Asian communities closed ranks however under pressure from feminist and secular groups many changed their perspective.

Also with the controversies concerning Kh*l!stan movement and it;s openly,anti progressive liberal critical anti left and petty bourgeois outlook; I've heard those sympathetic and supportive of Kh*l!stan describe liberalism as the grass in which the snake of communism thrives.
There is also chauvinism, if not outright racism towards other ethnic and religious groups by Sikhs, significantly in the Punjab towards Muslims and semi authorisation of caste system, although denounced by Sikh scripture and founding practice such as with landowning farmers The Jatts.

The world is getting its first Sikh court in London. That’s a threat to women’s rights - Europe Solidaire Sans Frontières

With the UK judicial system cut to breaking point, conservative religious forces are moving into a space vacated by the state On 1 June 2024, (…)

www.europe-solidaire.org

https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2007/04/30/changing-times-an-interview-with-kiranjit-ahluwalia-about-domestic-violence-2/​

It's a failing of mine that my first reaction here was one of anger. Thankfully humility and coffee have both kicked in and I'd like to offer a Sikh perspective, if that's OK.

Firstly, it's Sikhi, not Sikhism. The former is the proper way, the latter is a holdover from colonial times that has unfortunate overtones. We also do not have a foundation on social conservatism. Ffs, I'm a socialist and a Sikh. What you're reading as social conservatism is our history as warriors and a need to be regimented in order to ensure our survival when various forces have sought to eradicate us.

The article you link to says, several times, that there has been no consultation on what Sikh principles are. Except there has been, most recently over a specific Sikh marriage ceremony. All of our principles are there for anyone to read in the Maryada. I'll send you a copy if you want.

Khalistan is a dream for most Sikhs purely because we got fucked over when India and Pakistan were carved up. We were promised Khalistan then and got nothing, thanks to (mostly) the British. Its a need for an ancestral home but now almost certainly won't happen. The real Khalistan will be the emancipation of the Sikhs from colonial rule which still holds over to this day and I suspect is at the root of your objections here.

When the first gurdwaras were being opened here and the mass exodus of the Sikhs from Punjab happened, the British set certain conditions on us in order to allow us to keep our faith. One of those, and the main driver in much of what holds us back and forms negative opinions of us, is the committee system. The British forced us to accept that our places of worship were to be administered by a committee of Sikhs and not by the Akal Takht, the supreme court of Sikhi that has ultimate authority. We've now had this system for so long that corruption is endemic at almost every gurdwara in the country, certainly so at the larger ones. The more money that flows through, the more can be siphoned off as well as politicians wanting to be seen there, glad handing the committee members etc.

Annoyance at this has moving away from Sikh principles has made the rise of extremist groups much easier (theres your pro Khalistan and anti progressive bhenchods). This doesn't get spoken about anything like enough imho, both within the community and by outsiders too. Thats because avoiding a crap image of Sikhi is more important to those on committees and it's them that control the message going out ultimately, or at least it was until very recently and a movement back towards the Akal Takht/Panj Pyare system. This is also why domestic violence gets hushed up, the committee members are terrified of poor PR hitting their funds.


I am under no illusion about the demons in our closet, they need exposing. I just wanted to counter some points that were wrong and wanted to offer a Sikh view.

Have a good weekend

 

[izz]

Thank you for that post tonysingh, I know nothing about Sikhi and found it useful.

 

[tonysingh]

Thank you for that post tonysingh, I know nothing about Sikhi and found it useful.

I have my uses.

 

[Nigel]

It's a failing of mine that my first reaction here was one of anger. Thankfully humility and coffee have both kicked in and I'd like to offer a Sikh perspective, if that's OK.

Firstly, it's Sikhi, not Sikhism. The former is the proper way, the latter is a holdover from colonial times that has unfortunate overtones. We also do not have a foundation on social conservatism. Ffs, I'm a socialist and a Sikh. What you're reading as social conservatism is our history as warriors and a need to be regimented in order to ensure our survival when various forces have sought to eradicate us.

The article you link to says, several times, that there has been no consultation on what Sikh principles are. Except there has been, most recently over a specific Sikh marriage ceremony. All of our principles are there for anyone to read in the Maryada. I'll send you a copy if you want.

Khalistan is a dream for most Sikhs purely because we got fucked over when India and Pakistan were carved up. We were promised Khalistan then and got nothing, thanks to (mostly) the British. Its a need for an ancestral home but now almost certainly won't happen. The real Khalistan will be the emancipation of the Sikhs from colonial rule which still holds over to this day and I suspect is at the root of your objections here.

When the first gurdwaras were being opened here and the mass exodus of the Sikhs from Punjab happened, the British set certain conditions on us in order to allow us to keep our faith. One of those, and the main driver in much of what holds us back and forms negative opinions of us, is the committee system. The British forced us to accept that our places of worship were to be administered by a committee of Sikhs and not by the Akal Takht, the supreme court of Sikhi that has ultimate authority. We've now had this system for so long that corruption is endemic at almost every gurdwara in the country, certainly so at the larger ones. The more money that flows through, the more can be siphoned off as well as politicians wanting to be seen there, glad handing the committee members etc.

Annoyance at this has moving away from Sikh principles has made the rise of extremist groups much easier (theres your pro Khalistan and anti progressive bhenchods). This doesn't get spoken about anything like enough imho, both within the community and by outsiders too. Thats because avoiding a crap image of Sikhi is more important to those on committees and it's them that control the message going out ultimately, or at least it was until very recently and a movement back towards the Akal Takht/Panj Pyare system. This is also why domestic violence gets hushed up, the committee members are terrified of poor PR hitting their funds.


I am under no illusion about the demons in our closet, they need exposing. I just wanted to counter some points that were wrong and wanted to offer a Sikh view.

Have a good weekend

Thanks Tony very informative.
I get the impression that Sikhs/Sikhi got screwed by Congress Party also after independence, not recognising them as a separate spiritual movement/religion and later Indira Gandhi blocking the Sikh faith in with Hinduism.

Also much of the left, significantly Communist Party Of India (Marxist), while making deals with Muslim League sidelining Sikh interests with recognition of partition and Pakistan and deals concerning land and water rights with neighbouring states, significantly Haryana.

I used to get copies of Congressional Record quite a while back, which I think was/is produced by Council Of Kh@l!stan. It seemed to be quite chauvinistic towards other religious and ethnic groups and also very pro American imperialism, possibly because of India used to be part of non aligned movement and reasonably amiable relationship with the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

From what I gather Sikhism is relatively progressive generally and heterogenic politically and ideologically, with a strong democratic left element, significantly after Amritsar Massacre 1919, with political movements with, for example Ghadar, heavy involvement with General Strike 1931 and Martyrdom of Bhagat Singh, Sukhdev Thapar & Shivaram Rajguru.

Quite recently Sikh communities played a major role in Farmers Strike in Punjab and in England, they played a major role in supporting industrial action with Gate Gourmet et al.,going back to at least Sky Chefs industrial dispute, if not Grunwick

I got the impression that there has been contention with landless peasants and small hold farmers with Jatts and larger landowners depicts class and social contradictions within Sikh and Punjab community itself.

 

[Nigel]

It's good to see that Sikh Court in London has selected a woman- Brinder Khara as their Head Judge!

Brinder Khara Appointed Judge In World's First Skih Court | Setfords

Setfords Consultant Solicitor, Brinder Khara, was appointed judge at the world's first Sikh Court in London by Sikh lawyers who felt courts lacked the religious and cultural expertise and resources to deal with disputes between Sikhs.

www.setfords.co.uk

 

[tonysingh]

The more i read about this Sikh court, the more I realise it's about as anti-Sikh as you're going to get. I've been looking over Sikhi based media these last couple days and there's barely a mention of it and what there is is dripping with disdain.

I suspect this court is nothing more than an excuse for some Sikhs to get the unengaged to proffer up more donations and 'respect' which runs opposite to what SGGS teaches us. I also think it's a reaction to the movement I mentioned towards governing each gurdwara from the Akal Takht via the Panj Pyare as opposed to the current committee system.

 

[Nigel]

The more i read about this Sikh court, the more I realise it's about as anti-Sikh as you're going to get. I've been looking over Sikhi based media these last couple days and there's barely a mention of it and what there is is dripping with disdain.

I suspect this court is nothing more than an excuse for some Sikhs to get the unengaged to proffer up more donations and 'respect' which runs opposite to what SGGS teaches us. I also think it's a reaction to the movement I mentioned towards governing each gurdwara from the Akal Takht via the Panj Pyare as opposed to the current committee system.

I doe come across as part of a western convention in some aspects.
Can you elaborate on criticism within the various elements and parts of the Sikhi Community on this court and the mindset around it.
Also have you got any sources for Sikhi Jurisprudence, Legal Practice etc.
I should imagine this has a lot to do with property relationships & disputes in the Punjab.

 

[tonysingh]

I doe come across as part of a western convention in some aspects.
Can you elaborate on criticism within the various elements and parts of the Sikhi Community on this court and the mindset around it.
Also have you got any sources for Sikhi Jurisprudence, Legal Practice etc.
I should imagine this has a lot to do with property relationships & disputes in the Punjab.

I can do a bit elaborating further, that's easy but I want to do it justice so it'll either tomorrow or the day after.

 

[ID47]

It's a failing of mine that my first reaction here was one of anger. Thankfully humility and coffee have both kicked in and I'd like to offer a Sikh perspective, if that's OK.

Firstly, it's Sikhi, not Sikhism. The former is the proper way, the latter is a holdover from colonial times that has unfortunate overtones. We also do not have a foundation on social conservatism. Ffs, I'm a socialist and a Sikh. What you're reading as social conservatism is our history as warriors and a need to be regimented in order to ensure our survival when various forces have sought to eradicate us.

The article you link to says, several times, that there has been no consultation on what Sikh principles are. Except there has been, most recently over a specific Sikh marriage ceremony. All of our principles are there for anyone to read in the Maryada. I'll send you a copy if you want.

Khalistan is a dream for most Sikhs purely because we got fucked over when India and Pakistan were carved up. We were promised Khalistan then and got nothing, thanks to (mostly) the British. Its a need for an ancestral home but now almost certainly won't happen. The real Khalistan will be the emancipation of the Sikhs from colonial rule which still holds over to this day and I suspect is at the root of your objections here.

When the first gurdwaras were being opened here and the mass exodus of the Sikhs from Punjab happened, the British set certain conditions on us in order to allow us to keep our faith. One of those, and the main driver in much of what holds us back and forms negative opinions of us, is the committee system. The British forced us to accept that our places of worship were to be administered by a committee of Sikhs and not by the Akal Takht, the supreme court of Sikhi that has ultimate authority. We've now had this system for so long that corruption is endemic at almost every gurdwara in the country, certainly so at the larger ones. The more money that flows through, the more can be siphoned off as well as politicians wanting to be seen there, glad handing the committee members etc.

Annoyance at this has moving away from Sikh principles has made the rise of extremist groups much easier (theres your pro Khalistan and anti progressive bhenchods). This doesn't get spoken about anything like enough imho, both within the community and by outsiders too. Thats because avoiding a crap image of Sikhi is more important to those on committees and it's them that control the message going out ultimately, or at least it was until very recently and a movement back towards the Akal Takht/Panj Pyare system. This is also why domestic violence gets hushed up, the committee members are terrified of poor PR hitting their funds.


I am under no illusion about the demons in our closet, they need exposing. I just wanted to counter some points that were wrong and wanted to offer a Sikh view.

Have a good weekend

Sadly the same is true of Christianity, Islam and Judaism with Churches , Mosques and their committees and the Board of Deputies being in their vast majority rotten and corrupt to their core.

Solidarity to you regarding the legacies of the appalling carve up of the sub continent

 

[zahir]

The more i read about this Sikh court, the more I realise it's about as anti-Sikh as you're going to get. I've been looking over Sikhi based media these last couple days and there's barely a mention of it and what there is is dripping with disdain.

I suspect this court is nothing more than an excuse for some Sikhs to get the unengaged to proffer up more donations and 'respect' which runs opposite to what SGGS teaches us. I also think it's a reaction to the movement I mentioned towards governing each gurdwara from the Akal Takht via the Panj Pyare as opposed to the current committee system.

There's a statement about it here from the Council of Ex-Muslims and others. I don't know whether you'd feel that their criticisms are justified.

Joint Statement on the The Sikh Court | Council of Ex-Muslims of

The Sikh Court: Parallel Justice Systems are a Danger to Women We are alarmed by the establishment of a Sikh

ex-muslim.org.uk

 

[zahir]

Also this by Maryam Namazie.

In peril: religious authorities are closing in on minority women’s rights!

The announcement of the world’s first Sikh ‘Court’ in London in April 2024 – and due to open for business on 1 June 2024 – demands our urgent attention. For many years, some of us have campaigned against the growth of Sharia councils and the creation of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal because...

onelawforall.org.uk

 

[tonysingh]

There's a statement about it here from the Council of Ex-Muslims and others. I don't know whether you'd feel that their criticisms are justified.

Joint Statement on the The Sikh Court | Council of Ex-Muslims of

The Sikh Court: Parallel Justice Systems are a Danger to Women We are alarmed by the establishment of a Sikh

ex-muslim.org.uk

I hadn't read the court was presenting itself as doing 'Sewa/Seva' but this is troubling and for the court to say they'll only charge minimal fees for doing the above is a beadbi, or to use a more familiar term, sacrilegious.

One of the absolute cornerstones of Sikhi is the concept of Sewa, which doesn't have a direct translation but as the article says, the nearest you get is selfless service or rather, serving Waheguru through serving others. This is where the concept of Langar, a kitchen in every gurdwara where anyone can come for a meal, regardless of faith or creed etc. For this court to say they're doing Sewa and charging for it is offensive to me as a Sikh.

The article makes a point of saying that members of this court have sworn allegiance to the Akal Takht and Panj Pyare. All Sikhs acknowledge the Akal Takht and Panj Pyare, the latter being central to Vaisakhi. Even corrupt committee members do it, whether they abide by rulings is another thing since the Akal Takht does not directly control gurdwara affairs here.

Overral though, I would consider myself in agreement with the first article. It's considered and raises some good points. There are some laws or rules that pertain purely to Sikhi based things, like the Anand Karaj controversies but then any matters where the law of the land is involved, that must take precedence.

I'll have a butchers at the second article now.

 

[tonysingh]

The second article echoes the first mostly.

Two things stand out for me though. There's no way this court consulted with Sikh charities as they attest. I'd have been aware of them way beforehand, fuck all stays secret! Given there are already charities that work with all the at risk groups mentioned, then I would question why this court should exist. Again, I answer that with corruption and the need for the old guard to assert control over a changing of mood within the faith.

Secondly, the article states that Sikhi does not have a codified list of rules within which to arbitrate. We absolutely do have such a set of rules, it's the Rehat Maryada, which is essentially a code of conduct for each Sikh. Any dispute that falls outside of this should absolutely be the purview of the state. For this nascent Sikh Court to believe they have the right to interpret is troubling.