Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
I'd rather get relegated.
FA Trophy 1st Round Hornchurch v Dulwich Hamlet Saturday 14th December
- Thread starter Son of Roy
- Start date
I'd rather get relegated.
Al Cunningham
Brockley Hamlet
Very poor today. They could have scored a few more in first 20 mins of second half. We only one chance where which went close which I think Taylor side footed wide. The team is just a group of individuals who all look good for brief moments but dont combine in any effective form. Also Clunis should get more mins ....
StephenMac
Well-Known Member
That wasn't very good. Lucky it wasn't unpleasantly cold or it could have been a cack afternoon.
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
Also, have I missed something: where's Connor Hunte? Is he injured, or is he another one who's been inexplicably banished to the stand?
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
No. I'm not happy, this season is a write off, but a cup defeat against lower division opponents isn't the time for a knee-jerk reaction. League form needs to improve, the league fixtures come thick and fast from Tuesday (at home to Havant) through to the first Saturday in January. Six league matches, 18 points to play for (the total number we've won all season) in the next three weeks. Let's see where we are then. If it looks like a crisis at that point (with another 18 league matches to play) there may be a big decision for someone to take, either the club committee or the manager himself. Personally I don't really care whether we finish 7th or 17th. Obviously I'd like to finish as high as possible, with as many wins as possible. The worst thing about this season so far has been the mediocrity and lack of fire, passion, inspiration in our team's performance. Today was a classic example. Another close game, their goal was a half-chance converted by a deadly finish from a half-cleared attack. Sixty seconds later we had a similar chance at the other end and Taylor miscued it wide of the far post. We can't keep claiming bad luck when it happens every week. But I'm not sure there's a lot to gain by making a big change right now. First of all I'd like to reassess next month. Then I'd like to reassess at the end of the season.
Also I'm fairly certain Gavin signed a 3 year contract last summer. You can't just rip that up. I hope everyone can pull through this together like we have done in the past .
£1.50 each way, same as a home game!
Laurie hill
Active Member
1.50 there from peckham rye! 3.10 back to Clapham Common!
Decent burger, ground better than expecting
performance woeful...messed with the team which was surprisingly given we played full strength versus Chippenham....
agree re clunis - been past player last few games and looked lively when came on
nothing against new striker but signing someone clearly totally unfit....how is that going to help us
I mean seriously...we’re heading for bottom two soon
Decent burger, ground better than expecting
performance woeful...messed with the team which was surprisingly given we played full strength versus Chippenham....
agree re clunis - been past player last few games and looked lively when came on
nothing against new striker but signing someone clearly totally unfit....how is that going to help us
I mean seriously...we’re heading for bottom two soon
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
Wasn't impressed with Kearney. Don't want to write off someone on first sight, but he looks like a blunt instrument to me, lacking subtlety, heavy touch, reminds me of Joe Benjamin.
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
Basically 4-3-3, but with Connors sitting behind two half-backs (Taylor and Ijaha) rather than Vose in a creative role in front of them.
Laurie hill
Active Member
Just think bit naive playing new guy upfront on own when totally unfit - he has a decent record and scored a couple against us pre season but asking for trouble
Honchurch were more up for it and obviously Ricky h would be too - he had a good game to be fair (no love lost there really and not the first time he’s done us over).
I’m not convinced mills is bullet proof but good as we’ve got - prefer to see him with someone else. But then dipo was my favourite player....
Honchurch were more up for it and obviously Ricky h would be too - he had a good game to be fair (no love lost there really and not the first time he’s done us over).
I’m not convinced mills is bullet proof but good as we’ve got - prefer to see him with someone else. But then dipo was my favourite player....
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
I'd normally agree with you, but I think it's wrong to call the idea 'kneejerk': if our form had been bumpy and there'd been ups (plural) and downs, then I'd concur that a change of management after today would be hasty, but we haven't won a league game since August. We're now losing to sides in the division beneath us. We've placed our faith in a striker that is, by all accounts, so unfit that he is a clear target for derision from opposition fans. We have one natural centre half in the entire squad (Quade is a midfielder: I don't care what anyone says). All this despite - and I'm aware that I'm repeating myself - having the biggest budget in the club's history, three training sessions a week, nutrition plans for the players and good training facilities. On top of this we've signed proven players at this level. The squad is disharmonious: every week someone else has been farmed out or has fallen from favour.
There is only one variable that has not been changed and that variable has got everything at his disposal to get a good finish in our division and, at the very least, to beat the likes of Hornchurch.
I cannot agree about not caring about where we finish. If you ask for and are given an improved and highly competitive budget, then you have to justify that expenditure with results. That's the price you pay for being given the means to attract better players. You can't get a good budget and finish fourth from bottom - that's gross underperformance and simply a waste of money.
Sorry, but I think it's time he goes. Enough.
Laurie hill
Active Member
Agree with mr Morocco
we’re very much a form team but....
I think we need a win minimum versus Havant or hungerford minimum
we’re very much a form team but....
I think we need a win minimum versus Havant or hungerford minimum
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
In that case it was "time he goes" this time last week. My main argument is that a cup result should not be the tipping point. If we'd comfortably beaten a lower league side 3-0 that wouldn't have made any difference either, so the defeat doesn't make any difference to me.
It's the league form that's the problem, the next game is in two days, which is the first of six matches in three weeks. I don't really think you could pick a less convenient moment to make a change than right now, it would be a massive gamble.
pitchfork
Well-Known Member
So he hasn’t won game since August, which I imagine is the worst record in all the leagues from Nat South and above, so let’s have another 6 games to find our form!
I don’t think he knows what to do to sort this. He’s tried some many players, formations and tactics. Maybe he’s just run out of ideas and enthusiasm. Why would you give him another 6 games?
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
So there's two days before the next match. Who are you going to put in charge for that?
Why would I give him another 6 games? Why not. I don't like sacking people and I think the beginning of a very intensive period of fixtures is the worst moment to do that anyway. He's already been here for over ten years and more than 500 games. In the very first season we didn't win a home league match until December, then there was a sequence of nine defeats in ten matches with only three goals scored during the new year. We didn't sack him then, and in all of the next 8 seasons we still had a chance of promotion during our final match of the season. If he's run out of ideas and enthusiasm he's probably better placed than anyone else to know that.
Ultimately I trust the directors, committee and management to resolve the issue between them one way or another without me demanding that heads should roll.
gnar182
i am an okay person
I’ve been thinking about this a lot and been critical in the past, also agree something needs to change urgently but realistically who are you bringing in that’s a better manager than Gavin around this level?
I think he’s the best man for the job going forward atleast in the short term, fans need to get behind the team and let him have another roll of the dice, his past success has afforded him that.
I think he’s the best man for the job going forward atleast in the short term, fans need to get behind the team and let him have another roll of the dice, his past success has afforded him that.
Son of Roy
Misses BIG and RMV
Moroccan Sunset why don't you ask Gav if you can do the pre-match team talk? Perhaps shouting and a bit of 'bog washing' will motivate them 
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
Who's better? Well, I'd say the eighteen managers above us in the league, for starters! Gavin was in divisions beneath the Conf South and he's clearly been better than some of the managers above him - there's no reason why there can't be another manager that's good enough in the divisions below.
Gavin has done well, he really has, but for me this run has proved to me that his tenure is over. He's too comfortable, he's stagnated, IMO. The last thing we need to do is feed ourselves this illusion that there is no one better available, that only Gavin can save us from this mess (that he's created). Bar one or two individuals, I don't really know any managers well enough to say whether they are better than Gavin or not. It's almost impossible to say there's no one available that's better than Gavin.
I think there's a problem with the word 'better' too. Football is a very 'horses for courses' sport. At the moment, we look demotivated, out of ideas, tactically confused, shot-shy. It feels to me that we need a motivator to come in, someone a bit old-school (maybe?), to get us organised, back to basics. Does that make someone 'better' than Gavin? No, I don't think so: I think it's just what's needed at this given time.
We're an attractive club, too. We've got an excellent media profile, huge crowds, a healthy budget, a good squad, a decent training schedule. I think we're underestimating ourselves to think that we'd be short of good applications.
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
Moroccan Sunset why don't you ask Gav if you can do the pre-match team talk? Perhaps shouting and a bit of 'bog washing' will motivate them
Shouting at the players is the last thing that would help at the moment. It's not the squad that's the problem.
Pretty sure it only cost £3 from Denmark Hill, but the transaction hasn't fully loaded on my Monzo account detailing the date etc, which means its currently unofficial.
Logging on to my TFL contactless account reveals that I've been charged £1.50 from Denmark Hill to Upminster and £1.50 for the reverse trip. So an unbridled success all in all. Thank you to everyone who made this possible.
Son of Roy
Misses BIG and RMV
Glenn Hoddle & Eileen Drewery?
Blitzwalker
Well-Known Member
It is quite possible that Gavin has run his course as manager and certainly the results, the manner of the defeats, team selection policy and the general demeanour of the players would all suggest this. On the other hand, Gavin is under contract and he can't be sacked without paying off the remainder of his contract and he certainly isn't going to walk and save the club that problem.
I agree that the whole "in Gavin we trust" ship has sailed long ago and that he shouldn't be fireproof. Despite what Gavin has achieved for the club in the past, both on and off the pitch - all football managers, even the very greatest, have a finite tenure and the time comes when players stop listening, the tactics become predictable or the manager just loses his way. But I think it best to wait until the end of the season, reflect on events (where I have just heard that before?) and then let the directors decide what is best for the club rather than dumping the manager now.
Hi everyone. 'ornchurch fan here but not here to gloat or goad (except obvs via my mere presence!). I was just interested in the 'amlet view of the game and on reading through the thread was very surprised at the focus on the manager so thought I'd sign up to the forum. (As an aside I'm also rather disappointed by the demise of the footballwebpages Dulwich forum - though thanks for the crack cocaine online link which I've passed onto Glenn Tamplin).
Anyway. To me Gavin Rose is one of those people that epitomises the benefits of staying loyal to a top-drawer manager who will then deliver sustained progress rather than continually switching for short term gain. Nobody has yet drawn a comparison with Arsene Wenger but both arrived at periods of relative mediocrity and then oversaw a huge improvement. I do think Arsene had had his time - other coaches had caught up, especially with his niche knowledge of European/African undiscovered talent. But Gavin operates in a lower octane world where local knowledge is key - and I'd be amazed if anyone has better local contacts. My advice (FWIW) is think very carefully before jettisoning a manager that will have other clubs queuing around the block to sign up. I'd look at the players... Hornchurch won every second ball (sometimes a little robustly for sure) - which is nothing to do with talent and everything to do with feeling too comfortable/ can't be arsed.
Anyway - hope you stay up as I do like the club and the astonishing progress you've made in the last few years... if only we could replicate it.
All the best
Aghast of 'avering.
Anyway. To me Gavin Rose is one of those people that epitomises the benefits of staying loyal to a top-drawer manager who will then deliver sustained progress rather than continually switching for short term gain. Nobody has yet drawn a comparison with Arsene Wenger but both arrived at periods of relative mediocrity and then oversaw a huge improvement. I do think Arsene had had his time - other coaches had caught up, especially with his niche knowledge of European/African undiscovered talent. But Gavin operates in a lower octane world where local knowledge is key - and I'd be amazed if anyone has better local contacts. My advice (FWIW) is think very carefully before jettisoning a manager that will have other clubs queuing around the block to sign up. I'd look at the players... Hornchurch won every second ball (sometimes a little robustly for sure) - which is nothing to do with talent and everything to do with feeling too comfortable/ can't be arsed.
Anyway - hope you stay up as I do like the club and the astonishing progress you've made in the last few years... if only we could replicate it.
All the best
Aghast of 'avering.
gnar182
i am an okay person
4 paragraphs of shite and you still didn’t manage to name a suitable replacement. Which of the 18 managers above us are we appointing then?
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
Charming. We were on the brink of an actual discussion there, but apparently if I disagree with you it's 'shite'.
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying I know exactly who we should appoint, but given everything going for us, I would be amazed if we didn't receive applications from good managers. Just because we can't name a perfect replacement for Gavin that shouldn't make him completely invincible.
scousedom
Well-Known Member
Chicken and egg here isn’t it? Which came first, the signing every single person in the south east who has ever kicked a ball, or the contacts book?
Fwiw, I’ve a lot of sympathy with the view that change in the short term given the heavy run of fixtures would be pretty risky and probably counterproductive. But I also have no appetite for another summer/autumn of ridiculous player turnover like this one. Does anyone, even the most ardent Gavin supporter? (Genuine question that)
I think as many have said, there is a big risk in changing manager. I remember reading “Pay to Play” by Paul Tomkins a while back. It was an early moneyball style analysis of football transfer success rate. I can’t remember the metrics he used to analyse all the deals but the high level conclusion was that over about 20 years or so roughly 40% of top flight transfers could be deemed a success (so 60% a failure). I have no data to prove it (as he didn’t look at managers) but I would say that I think that’s worth remembering in the managerial context - probably a little more than half of changes don’t work out. Therefore if you change manager you should be happy that you are doing so to get yourself only a 40% chance of success (however you define that). It follows that you would make a change if you thought that your current incumbent has a less than 40% chance of giving you what you want (paying off of three year contracts notwithstanding).
blueheaven
Well-Known Member
Is anything really all that different this season? My impression of Gavin Rose from the last six years of watching Hamlet is that he's always chopped and changed too much, he's always had a tendency to fall out with players, he's always brought in seemingly random new signings at odd moments who go straight into the starting line-up without offering anything more than the players they're replacing, he's always seemed to blame the players for results going wrong despite team selections being odd and tactics being limited. To me, it's not the manager who's suddenly changed or gotten worse: it's the fact that we're playing against a better standard of opponent who have easily worked out how to stop us from playing and are able to punish us when we can't punish them. Last season we were generally pretty poor but pulled together in difficult circumstances and managed to get some good results to keep us up fairly comfortably in the end. This season it feels like there's no excuses and nowhere to hide: decent players have been replaced with inferior players, the team isn't settled, we're toothless up front (and yet got rid of Dipo and Yussuf - baffling!), and we're lacking in leaders/winners who can stand up and be counted and drag us through the harder games - and no amount of extra training, or improved facilities, or sports science is going to significantly improve that.
Despite all of the above I am still of the opinion that he deserves time to turn the situation around. His achievements over the years, continually improving our finishing positions, can't really be argued with, and I also feel he has been a brilliant ambassador for the club during very difficult times. However, he can't be seen to be bullet-proof and really needs to find a long-term formula/strategy that works, other than making constant wholesale changes to the squad (I think perhaps he could get away with that tactic in the leagues below, but now that the club has become more professional and has players on full contracts and working here effectively full-time, that approach just doesn't work and I'd even suggest that it's unfair on the players).
Incidentally: in reference to the discussion above, I do not believe that the question of "who is any better that we would appoint in his place?" is ever a reason to hold onto a failing manager. If the time comes for him to go, then he has to go, and it's up to the club to find that right replacement, regardless of whether us as fans can't agree on who that should be.
Despite all of the above I am still of the opinion that he deserves time to turn the situation around. His achievements over the years, continually improving our finishing positions, can't really be argued with, and I also feel he has been a brilliant ambassador for the club during very difficult times. However, he can't be seen to be bullet-proof and really needs to find a long-term formula/strategy that works, other than making constant wholesale changes to the squad (I think perhaps he could get away with that tactic in the leagues below, but now that the club has become more professional and has players on full contracts and working here effectively full-time, that approach just doesn't work and I'd even suggest that it's unfair on the players).
Incidentally: in reference to the discussion above, I do not believe that the question of "who is any better that we would appoint in his place?" is ever a reason to hold onto a failing manager. If the time comes for him to go, then he has to go, and it's up to the club to find that right replacement, regardless of whether us as fans can't agree on who that should be.
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