Extinction Rebellion

[kabbes]

I think people get that though. But it's the logic of Hamas isn't it? "I am enraged and I have an absolute right to express and vent my rage, because the things causing my rage are objective facts."

Yes. And, just as with Hamas, he presents you with a fissure in the social order that you are forced to confront. You can just tut, which won’t stop the resistance you are having to deal with. Or you can react violently, which means you have adopted the very same means that you are also saying have no worth. And that means he has succeeded in changing the way you are making sense of the world. Or you can attempt to resolve the thing he doesn’t like. Far from being naïve or “mad”, the logic works perfectly from within the epistemological framework it is elaborated within.

 

[Brainaddict]

Yes. And, just as with Hamas, he presents you with a fissure in the social order that you are forced to confront. You can just tut, which won’t stop the resistance you are having to deal with. Or you can react violently, which means you have adopted the very same means that you are also saying have no worth. And that means he has succeeded in changing the way you are making sense of the world. Or you can attempt to resolve the thing he doesn’t like. Far from being naïve or “mad”, the logic works perfectly from within the epistemological framework it is elaborated within.

It doesn't work though, because people see 'violence' by individuals and state violence as fundamentally different things. They've had lifelong indoctrination to see them as different things. So they don't feel that they are adopting the same means as him, since state violence is legitimate and his is not, and so no rupture occurs and everyone carries on their merry way. If he could actually come up with a strategy to delegitimise the state violence he might be onto something, but when he has tried that (by creating mass arrest situations) he has utterly failed to do it. Despite this obvious failure he has still not rethought his position, so rather than 'rupturing' anyone's worldview he just looks pigheaded.

 

[lazythursday]

I'm not a fan of Hallam or JSO's tactics, but I do sort of get his point. Arguably the only people really behaving like this is a genuine emergency are the protesters. What else is there to do, in the face of an existential threat that is being studiously ignored and minimised by most institutions, other than act a bit crazy?

I work in this field and it's really hard not to end up in utter despair. All that's happening is tinkering around the edges. Even those who genuinely want to take action seem increasingly paralysed to act or trapped in old ways of thinking that would be fine if we still had leisurely time to act. The daily cognitive dissonance is really hard to bear.

 

[Dystopiary]

He looks old enough to know that using "cunt" as a term of abuse is very misogynistic.

Yes, the worse thing in the world that you can be is a vagina, for the vagina has a mind of its own and will not allow a penis enter it whenever the owner of the penis wants it to do so.

Ash Sarker used the word in the video as well, maybe she needs a man to tell her not to.

 

[platinumsage]

What's so special about the climate emergency though? Where were the road gluers for the millions of preventable malaria deaths over the past decade? Or the numerous other "millions of deaths" causes that could be prevented by human action? I guess Hallam doesn't actually care about preventing deaths, otherwise he would have already tackled the low-hanging fruit of kids with typhoid or something.

 

[lazythursday]

What's so special about the climate emergency though? Where were the road gluers for the millions of preventable malaria deaths over the past decade? Or the numerous other "millions of deaths" causes that could be prevented by human action? I guess Hallam doesn't actually care about preventing deaths, otherwise he would have already tackled the low-hanging fruit of kids with typhoid or something.

This is such bullshit. Preventing millions of people dying of malaria - enraging as that is, thanks to our savage economic system - is not the same thing as stopping a process that is inexorably leading to a chaotic world where not only will there be millions of deaths but our very civilisation seems unlikely to survive, along with a whole host of the natural world. It's a ticking timebomb. There is no adapting to 3-4 degrees and we're heading there within the lifetimes of people born today.

 

[Brainaddict]

What's so special about the climate emergency though? Where were the road gluers for the millions of preventable malaria deaths over the past decade? Or the numerous other "millions of deaths" causes that could be prevented by human action? I guess Hallam doesn't actually care about preventing deaths, otherwise he would have already tackled the low-hanging fruit of kids with typhoid or something.

I wish you wouldn't say things where you don't even believe what you're saying and are just trying to chalk up debating club points. It makes you look a worse person than I suspect you are.

 

[platinumsage]

This is such bullshit. Preventing millions of people dying of malaria - enraging as that is, thanks to our savage economic system - is not the same thing as stopping a process that is inexorably leading to a chaotic world where not only will there be millions of deaths but our very civilisation seems unlikely to survive, along with a whole host of the natural world. It's a ticking timebomb. There is no adapting to 3-4 degrees and we're heading there within the lifetimes of people born today.

I’m not sure he likes our civilisation very much, and he keeps going on about deaths so I don’t think it’s bullshit to judge him on the things he says.

 

[lazythursday]

I’m not sure he likes our civilisation very much, and he keeps going on about deaths so I don’t think it’s bullshit to judge him on the things he says.

why don't you stick your whataboutery up your SUV exhaust pipe and reflect on how we could develop a better strategy than Hallam, that genuinely responds to the crisis that we are in.

 

[LDC]

As whataboutery goes it was a pretty incredible one! Shut up about climate change until you've sorted malaria and typhoid!

 

[lazythursday]

As whataboutery goes it was a pretty incredible one! Shut up about climate change until you've sorted malaria and typhoid!

Of course, this is a genuine argument made by some - that there is more benefit in focusing exclusively on issues such as poverty and disease, because climate can be dealt with through some sort of magical combination of technological development and adaptation to higher temperatures. A lot of that is based on really very outdated understandings of the science though, particularly poorly designed economic models that are now thoroughly discredited.

 

[platinumsage]

why don't you stick your whataboutery up your SUV exhaust pipe and reflect on how we could develop a better strategy than Hallam, that genuinely responds to the crisis that we are in.

I don't know why you're looking to me to devise an effective protest strategy, when no one else on this famous internet forum full of wizened protesters has come up with one yet either

I just don't see any benefit to pulling punches when talking about ineffective protests, what's that going to achieve apart from safeguard people's egos?

 

[redcogs]

We are all in a despairing situation with no easy answers about how to respond. But respond we must because sure as eggs is eggs the fuckers responsible for slow incineration of the earth will not stop voluntarily. Hallams great strength is to recognise this and to make it the central thrust of his agressive 'appeal' to the Left. We are all failing, and we all need reminding of that in the slight hope that we can wake up before closing time..

 

[redcogs]

Does not lack courage? Perhaps that is so, but he's only speaking to a handful of people who are largely on their side, even if they don't like being called cunts.

He ignores the reasons why people don't just get out on the roads and doesn't seem to understand that there might be reasons. Just as he didn't understand why his previous, failed, strategy of mass arrests didn't and wouldn't work. He has to build a narrative and not asume people understand the existential threat ahead of them, one that might not even directly (despite the weather we've had). Instead he just insults people.

His comment that good people shoudln't tolerate evil is clearly true, but it's just abstract. Tell that to the young woman JSO blocked who was driving her baby to a hospital appointment. Do you think she would like to be called a fucking cunt for facilitating, in small part, the climate apocalyupse? What is his solution to her situation, ignore her child's needs? Of course not that would be completely unreasonable.

I agree with the trhust of his points but I think he remains utterly naive.

i cant see that we are in fundamental disagreement really . Hallam, like all of us, has failed to deliver an alternative plan that works. But it ought surely to be recognised that XR are trying, however inadequately, to confront the issue head on. He lambasts the Left for not engaging properly with the dominant crisis of our times. And he has a fucking point.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbh I don't think hallam's vaunted great study of protest that works has really paid dividends of the sort claimed but has raised a fuck ton of money that I wonder what happened to

 

[redcogs]

i've become a bit cynical too over the years, but wow that is some question to pose Pickmans model. You think money has been misused in some corrupt manner? Is Hallam driving from meeting to meeting in a Bentley plus chauffuer (sp) while swigging decent bottles of champers?

 

[Pickman's model]

i've become a bit cynical too over the years, but wow that is some question to pose Pickmans model. You think money has been misused in some corrupt manner? Is Hallam driving from meeting to meeting in a Bentley plus chauffuer (sp) while swigging decent bottles of champers?

I honestly don't know what's happened to the £1m plus xr raised. I do know it hasn't gone to pay fines or towards legal support for the vast majority of people nicked on xr demonstrations, where xr didn't even deign to send support even of the moral kind

 

[redcogs]

I honestly don't know what's happened to the £1m plus xr raised. I do know it hasn't gone to pay fines or towards legal support for the vast majority of people nicked on xr demonstrations, where xr didn't even deign to send support even of the moral kind

Sounds like you are just throwing shit about then, which surprises me. Obviously a careful eye must always be kept on accounting inside 'anti establishment' political organisations, and it is also desirable that every penny of funds raised has or will go towards supporting people who have faced or are facing turmoil for demonstrating what they believe in. Maybe XR are simply inexperienced and suffering the inevitable chaos and growing pains of building a new organisation? If so they will need to get their act together sharpish. Certainly, as a priority, such problems need taking up internally and resolved. Few will want to give money to a body that cant properly account for its finances.

 

[newme]

Sounds like you are just throwing shit about then, which surprises me. Obviously a careful eye must always be kept on accounting inside 'anti establishment' political organisations, and it is also desirable that every penny of funds raised has or will go towards supporting people who have faced or are facing turmoil for demonstrating what they believe in. Maybe XR are simply inexperienced and suffering the inevitable chaos and growing pains of building a new organisation? If so they will need to get their act together sharpish. Certainly, as a priority, such problems need taking up internally and resolved. Few will want to give money to a body that cant properly account for its finances.

Where has the money gone?

 

[Karl Masks]

i cant see that we are in fundamental disagreement really . Hallam, like all of us, has failed to deliver an alternative plan that works. But it ought surely to be recognised that XR are trying, however inadequately, to confront the issue head on. He lambasts the Left for not engaging properly with the dominant crisis of our times. And he has a fucking point.

He has a point, but what Im saying is that point isn't rooted in reality. It's just conceptual. How does he intend to apply this in real life with real people living their real problems? If he inconveniences me on the road with JSO I can agree it isn't as bad as flooding in Libya killing thousands. But that isn't the reality I'm experiencing and expecting people to make that conneftion on an emotional level, to set aside their own relative privilege, isn't realistic. He increasingly sounds like a cult leader and that's a shame. I can accept that he's trying to do stuff, but he really needs to examine the whys and wherefores rather than just tell peopel they are fucking cunts. The people at TWT might laugh, they are sympathetic to him, but if he tries that in the MSM they'll cut him off, and if he tries that on the streets he'll get punched. I just don't see how he thinks he can achieve anything​

 

[Pickman's model]

Sounds like you are just throwing shit about then, which surprises me. Obviously a careful eye must always be kept on accounting inside 'anti establishment' political organisations, and it is also desirable that every penny of funds raised has or will go towards supporting people who have faced or are facing turmoil for demonstrating what they believe in. Maybe XR are simply inexperienced and suffering the inevitable chaos and growing pains of building a new organisation? If so they will need to get their act together sharpish. Certainly, as a priority, such problems need taking up internally and resolved. Few will want to give money to a body that cant properly account for its finances.

Is wondering now throwing shit round? I know xr have had more money than all the anarchist groups in the country have had, this entire century. That's a simple fact: assuming the national @ groups have had as much each as cw did in a good year, we're talking no more than £100k tops. Then you get a group which gets reported figures of more than £1m, where's it gone? I don't know. I don't know if anyone here knows. But I do know I'd be very reluctant to give money to any group which doesn't look after the people it gets out on the streets

 

[Brainaddict]

Where has the money gone?

They did some interesting/chaotic open application for funds within the organisation, with a big spreadsheet that was visible to a lot of people at one point. Some good uses, some questionable uses got requested, I never saw the follow-up. Tbh I wouldn't expect an organisation like XR to be super careful with money, and it isn't their expertise. I hope there's been no open corruption, but they've made more impact than some charities with a £100m budget. If some of it got pissed up the wall I wouldn't really care. Would I give money to XR? No, but other people chose to, knowing that it was a chaotic organisation out to make a big splash, not some careful charity counting every penny. I think they'd be silly to feel hard done by if some money went on nonsense.

 

[redcogs]

WTF. Some of the tone on here in relation to XR is not disimilar to that put about by the Daily Scum and its 2022 claim that Hallam had some £3000 a month gaff and was lavishing while everyone else suffers the cost of living crisis. From Just Stop Oil's website:

"Why did the Sun lie about Roger Hallam?​

Press / November 11, 2022

The Sun has admitted that its claim that Just Stop Oil supporter Roger Hallam lives in a “£3000 per month” flat was a flat-out lie. It has agreed to publish a correction, that it’s actually a £250 per week flat. [1][2]
The details of someone’s living arrangements seem trivial when set against the threat we face from climate heating, but it’s worth asking “Why would the Sun risk contempt of court proceedings by publishing obvious lies about someone facing criminal charges?”
Rupert Murdoch, the owner of the Sun (and countless other titles through News Corp) sits on the Board of Genie Oil & Gas. He has for decades used his media empire to deceive the public about the threat from climate breakdown. His own son, James Murdoch, left News Corp, giving as his reason the continuing misinformation about climate.
When Sir David King was the Government’s special representative on climate change in the run up to the Paris Agreement in 2015, he wanted to publicise a report that would have revealed to the public the extreme danger from climate breakdown. But he was blocked from doing so by a special adviser at 10 Downing Street, who didn’t want to upset Rupert Murdoch.
The Sun wants you to believe that Roger Hallam is living the life of Riley, because people who work to expose the extreme danger we face are a direct threat to Rupert Murdoch’s business interests. It’s classic divide and rule. That’s why the Sun lied about Roger Hallam. That’s why it monsters and misrepresents the young people, mothers, grandmothers, builders, engineers and doctors, the everyday people of this country who are working to protect our rights and freedoms.
Now Roger Hallam and many supporters of Just Stop Oil are in prison, the Sun keeps on lying, the Government is licensing more oil and gas, contrary to all the scientific and expert advice and we will all pay the price.
That’s why those who support Just Stop Oil will continue to work in civil resistance, for those they love, for those you love".

 

[redcogs]

He has a point, but what Im saying is that point isn't rooted in reality. It's just conceptual. How does he intend to apply this in real life with real people living their real problems? If he inconveniences me on the road with JSO I can agree it isn't as bad as flooding in Libya killing thousands. But that isn't the reality I'm experiencing and expecting people to make that conneftion on an emotional level, to set aside their own relative privilege, isn't realistic. He increasingly sounds like a cult leader and that's a shame. I can accept that he's trying to do stuff, but he really needs to examine the whys and wherefores rather than just tell peopel they are fucking cunts. The people at TWT might laugh, they are sympathetic to him, but if he tries that in the MSM they'll cut him off, and if he tries that on the streets he'll get punched. I just don't see how he thinks he can achieve anything​

Same can be said of all Left politics can't it? i've heard similar criticisms a thousand times, 'if changing the world were so easy why are people not voting for it in their millions', or 'such ideas are too abstract', or 'pie in the sky impractical'. Despite such objections i reckon it is worth trying to keep the faith (even for a tired bugger like me) and hope to see some serious challenge to the fuckers dragging us into hell. XR Hallam may have deficiencies and be strategically/tactically inept, and may well not be the vehicle needed to take us forward to a brighter future. But if so they have simply joined a big club of triers and failers, as any honest appraiser of Left politics in the UK would attest. Its still important to try though.

 

[Karl Masks]

Same can be said of all Left politics can't it? i've heard similar criticisms a thousand times, 'if changing the world were so easy why are people not voting for it in their millions', or 'such ideas are too abstract', or 'pie in the sky impractical'. Despite such objections i reckon it is worth trying to keep the faith (even for a tired bugger like me) and hope to see some serious challenge to the fuckers dragging us into hell. XR Hallam may have deficiencies and be strategically/tactically inept, and may well not be the vehicle needed to take us forward to a brighter future. But if so they have simply joined a big club of triers and failers, as any honest appraiser of Left politics in the UK would attest. Its still important to try though.

perhaps it could. I don't know. If that's the case, then ok.

I don't disagree with his core point I just don't think he has a scooby about how to bring it about. JSO is, IMO, a joke

 

[redcogs]

Where has the money gone?

i'm not an XR member, so i have no clue about where the money has gone, or if indeed it has gone anywhere at all. Maybe it has been channelled towards its stated purpose of confronting a system that is hell bent on killing millions of innocents? Pickmans Model complains it isn't transparent and that its funds are not appropriately used to support XR/JSO members being persecuted by the state. He may have a point, idk whatever is the case its an issue they ought to address quickly. i have never given them a penny, but im sympathetic to their aims and objectives. my guess is that Pickman's wouldn't become a sympathiser of XR even if it had done all the things he claims they have not. Thats fair enough of course. Its politics when alls said and done.

 

[PTK]

I ask the following of those who support Extinction Rebellion

What is to be done about human-generated climate change?

What measures must be implemented to combat climate change?

Will these measures stop climate change altogether?

If not, then what measures are needed to minimise the effects of climate change?

 

[lazythursday]

I ask the following of those who support Extinction Rebellion

What is to be done about human-generated climate change?

What measures must be implemented to combat climate change?

Will these measures stop climate change altogether?

If not, then what measures are needed to minimise the effects of climate change?

Are you serious? Why are you so poorly informed on this topic?

Globally we stop burning fossil fuels, or to be more precise, reduce to a very small percentage of today's level. That means a complete reconfiguration of our energy system.

You can adapt to some level of climate change, through measures to cope better with extreme weather, floods, heating, depending where you are in the world. You might struggle to adapt to some possible outcomes, such as widespread crop failures.

 

[Pickman's model]

Let's just hope the methane hydrates under the Arctic ocean don't start to melt as the permafrost has. For me, it's all far too late what's happening, that events are beyond human ability to control.

 

[PTK]

Are you serious? Why are you so poorly informed on this topic?

Globally we stop burning fossil fuels, or to be more precise, reduce to a very small percentage of today's level. That means a complete reconfiguration of our energy system.

You can adapt to some level of climate change, through measures to cope better with extreme weather, floods, heating, depending where you are in the world. You might struggle to adapt to some possible outcomes, such as widespread crop failures.

How do we stop the emission of greenhouse gases?

Will stopping the emission of greenhouse gases stop climate change?

Why are the government’s plans to go net zero carbon inadequate?