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Evolutionary strategies/behaviours and culture

I mean, our greed went for the "tusk gene", as it were... Natural? I don't think so. You can't imagine anyone 5000 years ago going for it for shere survival but NOW for greed, status etc. Elephants without us as we are today would not be culled like this and we are not doing it for "natural" needs/purposefuly, as seen in Nature...
 
gorski said:
I mean, our greed went for the "tusk gene", as it were... Natural? I don't think so. You can't imagine anyone 5000 years ago going for it for shere survival but NOW for greed, status etc. Elephants without us as we are today would not be culled like this and we are not doing it for "natural" needs/purposefuly, as seen in Nature...
You are singularly failing to see this from the elephants' point of view.
 
gorski said:
OK, greed in this sense, as I mentioned, is going beyond one's [immediate] needs. Amassing, as it were, money etc. - as seen especially since the advent of Capitalism [see Locke, for instance: one can always have more money, unlike in barter economy, where ammasing grain senslessly is pointless etc. etc.]. Not that I have seen it in nature. One takes as much as necessary for the season, at most...

This is not true. A bacteria culture will grow and grow until it has consumed all resources, with no 'balance' or 'just enough' - likewise, many predator populations get so succesful, their food runs out and they die. Over-consuption, excess, these things happen in 'nauter' all the time.

But that is the point: apparently such "amoral" behaviour is "natural", and hence "normal", therefore "justified"... Which is a long jump.

Nobody said 'justified' - once again, justified is a human term. Nothing is 'justified' in nature, it just happens.

So, we had these "amoral", mere "observations" in a Modern Society [Hobbes, Malthus etc.], then it explained it all in Nature[Darwin/Wallace], then it's coming back from the Nature itself to... bite in the arse [social darwinism]...

Is it really all "natural/normal/justified/not questionable"??

Is it really something we see in Nature?

Or is it distincly ours?

This I don't understand, it's garbled, sorry.
 
You are singularly failing to see this from the elephants' point of view.

LBJ, that is the point - we can't... OK?

And it's interesting you raise this point, as it's silly to 'imagine' that it's all the same to the elephant [or bison], being selectively culled or even exterminated... Not a great effort on your part to 'see it from their point of view' there and yet it's somehow "recommended" to me...:rolleyes: Really silly.

Crispy, just the main, allegedly garbled [read difficult to understand if you never questioned Darwinism] point, as I fail to see any evidence that Nature has a species anywhere near to being as destructive as we are [amassing and killing on such a scale that it's way beyond the immediate needs, moreover capable of destroying its habitat/environment], sorry:

that is the difficult point for the non-critically educated, when it comes to Darwinism, as an omnipresent theory with very little or no opposition - that sort of thinking itself, at its very core, has a very inconvenient methodical problem. I can't be writing it all over again, so...

Darwinism comes [it's type of thinking, its methodology, its categorical apparatus, its notions - as expressly written by Wallace/Darwin]

...from Social Theory [i.e. "everything became clear after reading Malthus": notice eugenics etc. advocated by him, morals not coming into it...], to Science [Wallace/Darwin] and back to Social Theory [Socio-Biology, Social Darwinism, "evolutionary psychology" etc.] but without critically thinking about it - well, that spells disaster to my mind...

Can you understand how we are "primed" to "feel that our society" is "all around us", strangely enough in the Nature itself, how it can be a great comfort to some and an excellent justification for all sorts of social idiocy we call "natural" and hence "justified"...

But can we make an effort not to do this sort of thing? Sure, some are trying but not getting much coverage in the public sphere, it seems. I remember a single BBC programme on the topic, gathering people from both ends of the spectrum - and that's it, when it comes to the general public sphere...:(

A few more things mentioned by me:

...Marx already sees [this approach by W/D] as a methodological problem/fault, since Darwin himself admits he took Malthus' world-view and incorporated it, actually based his "understanding" of nature in it and "explained" everything in "nature" having in mind early Capitalist quagmire of the UK...

This is highly inappropriate and even dangerous [as I wrote earlier, re. eugenics, the Nazis etc.], as the alleged "insight" into Nature [that was formed by/based in "Social Science" - but that was conveniently forgotten (a highly embarrassing episode for Darwinians)] was then re-used to come back to Human Society to allegedly "firmly ground everything in timeless, Natural Laws that Darwin and co. have now understood"!

As Marx speaks of bourgeois apologists/ideologues: it's funny, he said, as now they look to have become just like the religious dogmatics they deposed, because all that happened before Capitalism was totally unjust and flawed, artificial and un-natural but the newly established [by them] society is now perfectly 'in tune' with Nature itself, so "no more changes, please"! History used to be but NO MORE!!

Interesting, don't you think? One uses a picture/model that one has in front of him, from the early Capitalist phase, shoves it into Nature and then, after Nature has been so beautifully "explained" comes back to Social Sciences to declare the new society "magically and even mystically" perfect and timeless... Bliss....:rolleyes:

In effect, many here don't even see anything wrong with this sort of methodical sliding from our very own, new Epoch, rampant, early Capitalist Society to Nature and then triumphally back to Society to show how "Nature and Society actually correspond, strangely"... but "beautifully", as "we" [who "can see this"] now feel much better, since "we see that it can't be any other way", hence "we better not even try changing anything", since "we have reached the Natural Principles" and "all else is actually impossible, un-natural, Utopian" and so forth...

Some comfort this may be to those afraid of life as open-ness, a creative kind of an effort into the New, who [the scared Cons] are yearning for "absolute, immovable, solid ground" from which they don't need to make any serious critical effort to think for themselves...:D
 
It's hard to pick the meaning out I'm afraid, your sentances ramble on and on.

Are you saying that you reject Darwin's theory because it came from a rather shady area of social theory?

Because, despite its origins, there is an overwhelming body of evidence for it. Talk to Phildwyer about this one, he's got a bee in his bonnet about social darwinism too.
 
gorski said:
Btw, that, to my mind, is ... selective breeding, not evolution...
Uhh, evolution *is* selective breeding -- selection of inheritable attributes by reproductive success.
 
@ Gorski

Like Lamarck, Darwin thought acquired characteristics could be passed on along with inherited ones.

He was, of course, wrong about this.

To attack Darwin the man, or his beliefs, is idiotic.

If you wish to attack evolutionary theory, attack it as it stands today, not as it stood 150 years ago.
 
Whom did I attack personally first?!?

littlebabyjesus said:
To attack Darwin the man, or his beliefs, is idiotic.

If you wish to attack evolutionary theory, attack it as it stands today, not as it stood 150 years ago.

Actually, it is idiotic to keep going on regardless of many a serious difficulty in it, warned by so many but not given any credence...:rolleyes:

Who is attacking Darwin personally? That "insight" into what I have written is idiotic, indeed!!! It is also a proof that people do not read what one writes but ramble on as if they do know and care. If you don't care then at least have the decency not to allow yourself to try to be mean to the other who acknowledged Darwin/Wallace's great contribution to Mankind but... That really is idiotic because people make really bad pricks out of themselves!:confused:

Here you are lazybones, written by me: :rolleyes:

Darwin's paradigm is the least crappy one we have, m8. Doesn't mean we should take it uncritically or mythologise it or make it into another religion. He tried and succeeded, with our thanx, to depose religious dogmas by his and Wallace's effort. Not to be forgotten. However, as it frequently happens, not so great an effort comes after a great pioneer and then the "establishing" of those "authorities" comes first and never mind the pushing of the boundaries and actually trying to think for ourselves, so we frequently end up with another dogma instead of the previous dogma it deposed. Much easier that way...

Whom am I attacking personally here, you disrespectful, blooming idiot?!?

I already said it many times but: people frequently take things out of context, take a bit and not the whole sentence and wilfully neglect the rest etc. Not the way to treat this serious set of issues, I'm afraid...

On the other hand, most of the time I have treated your uncritical ramblings one by one and in depth, dealing with the issues, trying to show you the difficulties of the paradigm of thinking built into Darwinism and not attacking a person... But oh no...

Besides, what's in regurgitating other people’s arguments ad nauseam - how come you never get tired of that, how come you never have the need to think beyond what you've been "given" as "truth"?!?

The whole point of this is to think deeper than what we have today, most of which is regurgitating something they never thought of seriously, as they have no necessary education in philosophy to do so... And then piss and moan when somebody makes an effort, tries to share some of one's knowledge in the area, keeps putting things into context etc. Nope, here start the labels throwing, as their "arguments" suddenly holds no water, so they attack me personally instead of dealing with the arguments open-mindedly and with a critical approach...

But boy, is that difficult or what...:rolleyes:
 
Jonti said:
Uhh, evolution *is* selective breeding -- selection of inheritable attributes by reproductive success.

Nope, not with heavy, laser-guided guns, for sheer greed [not "hunger/immediate need" but money and status driven - how natural is that?], genetic experiments pushing fish genes into tomatoes via viruses, extermination of a species for "sport", potential nuclear holocaust and so on and on and on... - it ain't... Not from a living species, it ain't...

We are NOT [just] animals, we are much more and hence we better start thinking about it seriously. It [nature] does not seem to oblige us anymore and we have the duty to critically re-think this theory behind it, methinx!

It does seem to easily justify just about any kind of narcissistic, sociopathic behaviour as "natural", as in Nature there's no morals...:eek:

How cool is that to a sociopath?:rolleyes: Anyone seen "The Corporation"? You should. Very "natural" these corporate types...:rolleyes:
 
Your posts give me a headache. Any chance you could summarise your position as if it were a published essay or something? Just a paragraph or two. Cos I'm confused - you keep going off on tangents.
 
Crispy said:
1) It's hard to pick the meaning out I'm afraid, your sentances ramble on and on.

2) Are you saying that you reject Darwin's theory because it came from a rather shady area of social theory?

3) Because, despite its origins, there is an overwhelming body of evidence for it. Talk to Phildwyer about this one, he's got a bee in his bonnet about social darwinism too.

1) Stick with me, don't get too easily distracted/downhearted, m8... Nothing valuable is so easy/simple one doesn't need to make an effort... I wish we lived in a transparent world - alas... It still is quite complex and things are expressed in "Sein-Schein" manner. We do need to keep trying to see through the appearance...

2) Please see my previous, considered [if I may say so] posts on Darwin. This is no place for fan-like cheering on, I'm afraid. One has to dig deep and regardless what one might find at the end. If we do - then we have became dogmatic and believers. Not good enough for me.

3) There is a great alternative that preserves the best from Darwin/Wallace great effort but it doesn't allow itself to be stuck in time, bravely pushing forward, questioning various "tenets" and presumptions, seeing things in Darwinism that are not typical... Well, not in terms of Neo-Con, simple, one-dimensional "all against all", "survival of the fittest" [ill gotten and uncritically pushed into Biology from Social Sciences] specific paradigm that is so dominant today it hurts, just how widely it has sunk in with not much critical effort... sadly!

I wrote about it but... Here it is again, a bit more explained:

In nature, one could argue, there are other possibilities, as Jonti's link to Love2Know encyclopaedia shows, and one can pick on various ones to paint a picture as one chooses.

If one sees "us" only as combatants/competitors then a specific picture might emerge.

Or perhaps, at least all the higher organisms, as amalgamations between many different parts and all interacting, hence interdependent, therefore co-operating etc. - a very different picture might emerge...

So, it depends on many factors what we shall see in nature. But, as Kant-Hegel development teaches us, not much more than we put in it...

The last part I insist on. We, being limited beings, rather than Gods, can only see what we put into an object...;)

It doesn't prevent us from trying to see as much as possible, of course...:cool:
 
gorski said:
1) Nothing valuable is so easy/simple one doesn't need to make an effort...
Boastful statements such as this won't endear you to many people.

The most valuable ideas, I find, are usually the simplest.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
To examine another aspect of the russian take on darwinism, check out Trofim Lysenko.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko

You could have done something like this, maybe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_theory_and_the_political_left

The majority of those on the left do not oppose Darwinism per se, but are critical of interpretations of evolutionary theory that, in their view, overemphasize the role of competition and ignore elements of co-operation in nature such as symbiosis.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Boastful statements such as this won't endear you to many people.

The most valuable ideas, I find, are usually the simplest.

Tells me a man who wilfully neglects what I really think and openly write about it, quite directly, distorts it without any conscience, calls me names, then has the audacity to say something like this...:eek: Marvellous!:rolleyes:

Nope, that's just for simple-minds like you!:p :D
 
Ok, good, I agree - 'survival of the fittest' is a poor way to explain or excuse human social behaviour. Especially when 'fittest' is interpreted as 'most powerful' or' strongest'

But the true meaning of fittest is 'most suited to its environment'

'Environment' is the complete sum of external factors that affect an organism. That includes other organisms and their physical works in the world. Sometimes to be fit, you have to be weaker or smaller or more cooperative or more aggressive or bright red in colour. And these changes influence further changes in other organisms.

The whole thing is a massive, complex system, with multiple overlapping scales - from competition between bacteria in my gut all the way up to herd animals cropping North Africa into desert.
 
Gorski, here's an exercise that Einstein recommends.

Explain to me in a short paragraph the theory of evolution in terms an eight-year-old would understand. Imagine you are writing an entry for a children's encyclopedia.

Einstein said, and I quote: 'Any scientific theory which cannot be understood by an eight-year-old is probably wrong.'

Please indulge me and take the time to do this. It will clarify your position for the rest of us.:)
 
Brainaddict said:
According to Dawkins and the standard evolutionary model

Dawkins does not espouse anything close to 'the standard evolutionary model.' Any attempt to apply Darwinian theory to human society is doomed to disastrous failure, and bound to produce reactionary politics.
 
Crispy said:
Are you saying that you reject Darwin's theory because it came from a rather shady area of social theory?

Because, despite its origins, there is an overwhelming body of evidence for it. Talk to Phildwyer about this one, he's got a bee in his bonnet about social darwinism too.

There's no single interpretation of Darwin though. If you want to hang a label on me, I broadly agree with SJ Gould's later work, although I don't think he was fully aware of the theist implications of his positions. Or perhaps more likely he was afraid to enunciate them.
 
phildwyer said:
Any attempt to apply Darwinian theory to human society is doomed to disastrous failure, and bound to produce reactionary politics.
I agree with this, sort of.

But evolutionary theory does not make judgements - evolution just happens, there is no right or wrong to it. I think it is very difficult for us to study our own society without thinking in terms of right and wrong, because we ourselves are an active component in the making of that society, and we have to base our decisions on something.

In other words, Darwinian theory is of no use to us if we wish to understand the internal dynamics of human society.
 
A question to all the participants:

do you think that now, having left the early, nasty, simple stages of Capitalism behind, having developed infinitely more complex, fairer and much more demanding societal structures, institutions and processes, having built our democratic culture/awareness/emotional attachment to those -

we might be ready for some more considered view of "Nature" and what is "Natural", at least for Humans?!?


Maybe a very different picture of what is actually going on in Nature itself might emerge from that, too?:cool:
 
gorski said:


do you think that now, having left the early, nasty, simple stages of Capitalism behind,

Try telling Bolivian miners that we've left these stages behind.

This post is terribly naive, and your question is based on a false premise, so it cannot meaningfully be answered.
 
gorski said:
do you think that now, having left the early, nasty, simple stages of Capitalism behind, having developed infinitely more complex, fairer and much more demanding societal structures, institutions and processes


Surely you jest?
 
Guys, get serious, if only for a little while, please...:D

I mean especially Scandinavia and most of the EU, at least the developed member states. I explained that earlier [the Giddens book, for instance].

It does not mean that Bolivia or China or Cuba or Gambia or Liberia [one could go on but what's the point of choosing the worst cases when we are talking about the best possible or at least the least crappy model on Earth we have?!?] are in the same lague but it means that those countries might start learning much more from EU, rather than US, for instance...;) :cool:
 
gorski said:
Guys, get serious, if only for a little while, please...:D

I mean especially Scandinavia and most of the EU, at least the developed member states. I explained that earlier [the Giddens book, for instance].

It does not mean that Bolivia or China or Cuba or Gambia or Liberia [one could go on but what's the point of choosing the worst cases when we are talking about the best possible or at least the least crappy model on Earth we have?!?] are in the same lague but it means that those countries might start learning much more from EU, rather than US, for instance...;) :cool:

Most of those countries are the way they are because the 'advanced' capitalist countries run them through neo-imperialism.
 
no, I see what you mean - the social conditions in western countries have changed since Darwin's time, therefore let's see if there's an alternate theory for the devlopment of life that can be influenced by today's society.
 
Crispy said:
no, I see what you mean - the social conditions in western countries have changed since Darwin's time, therefore let's see if there's an alternate theory for the devlopment of life that can be influenced by today's society.

...just as Darwin was influenced by his time and place, societal structures and mores etc.

Phil, at the very least partly that's right [the neo-colonialism via economics etc.] but when it comes to the EU it's nowhere as bad as the US model, I think... A legitimate debate, of course - but the point I'm trying to make is precisely that: abolishing of such economic, financial etc. structures/institutions/processes, seeing those countries as much more than "competitors" and "fair game":cool: in terms of exploitation and domination. Such behaviour in Human terms is not "natural" and hence "perfectly justified"....:eek:
 
phildwyer said:
Most of those countries are the way they are because the 'advanced' capitalist countries run them through neo-imperialism.
Exactly. You cannot separate the prosperity of, say, Europe from the poverty of the countries that supply Europe with most of its raw materials, which are systematically pillaged.
 
Crispy said:
no, I see what you mean - the social conditions in western countries have changed since Darwin's time, therefore let's see if there's an alternate theory for the devlopment of life that can be influenced by today's society.
*has a look*

*doesn't find one*
 
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