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Energy Return on Investment

kabbes

First intersubjective, then internalised
I subscribe to the Institute of Actuaries' Resource and Environment Group. This was set up to investigate the effect on growth and the environment of resource usage.

The most recent newsletter has an interesting piece about Energy Return on Investment, which I thought some might be interested in. I reproduce it below.

**

EROI is defined to be the ratio of energy returned from energy extraction and
production compared to the energy invested in those energy gathering processes.
Historically, energy sources like oil have provided a massive return on energy invested,
but this is now reducing as more difficult sites are being tackled. This clearly increases
energy costs and constrains economic growth. A recent preliminary report by the State
University of New York, College of Environmental Science and Forestry, (sponsored by
the UK Department for International Development - DFID) assesses EROI for various
global energy resources. See: http://tiny.cc/a4eqrw

As a statistic, it will be appreciated that EROI involves extensive data, a number of
assumptions and complex calculations, so a range of results is considered. Also, “EROI
analysis does not assess the complex combination of physical, technical, environmental,
economic, and social attributes that determine a fuel’s usefulness to society.” Such
factors could possibly be worked into even more comprehensive EROIs.
The report states that if the trend towards higher cost extraction continues, and
non-conventional sources do not provide sufficiently high EROIs, “we may be moving
toward the ‘net energy cliff.”:

net energy cliff.gif

The low EROI from corn-based ethanol, and the loss of land for food production
which results from the increased use for biofuels, shows why these policies are
being questioned. The report notes that, while wind and photovoltaic energy are
argued to have substantial environmental benefits, factors such as the fossil fuels
used in the creation, transport and construction of turbines and panels need to be
adequately represented in the analysis. Additionally, the energy costs pertaining to
intermittency of the resource need to be considered (the need for back up energy
generation or storage mechanisms). The report does not appear to contain any
significant analysis of shale gas and oil (from fracking ) which has already made a
huge impact on the US energy position.
 
There's nothing quite as portable and energy dence as oil. I'm not sure what the current state of synthetic oil technology is other than being a long, long way from commercially scaleable.
 
I am a bit bamboozled by that graph, actually. Is the x-axis scale not just the reciprocal of 1 minus the y-axis scale? Which means that shape of the graph is a bit irrelevant really, existing only so that you can point arrows at bits of it.
 
EROI is defined to be the ratio of energy returned from energy extraction and
production compared to the energy invested in those energy gathering processes.

Surely as long as EROI is greater than 1, it doesn't matter? If my special free energy machine produces 100 power units for every 99 consumed it's still free energy

"EROI analysis does not assess the complex combination of physical, technical, environmental,
economic, and social attributes that determine a fuel’s usefulness to society.” Such
factors could possibly be worked into even more comprehensive EROIs.

These are things that do matter, but they didn't get around to implementing yet.

So basically this EROI report is an excuse for accountants to get paid for saying "energy sources should provide more energy than is required to utilise them, otherwise they're not viable energy sources"
 
Nobody is being paid for this. It's all voluntary, done in peoples' free time.

It's not accountants, neither.

Other than that...
 
Nobody is being paid for this. It's all voluntary, done in peoples' free time.

It's not accountants, neither.

Other than that...

ok, I see it was written by Environment Policy students, and merely reported on by accountants.

Still don't see how EROI is useful without including at least some of all the factors they excluded.
 
Nope, not reported on by accountants either.

The clue's in the name.

It is also worth stressing that all work done by working parties for the Institute of Actuaries is entirely voluntary, done by individuals off their own back in their own free time. It comes out of a sense of duty to the profession and wider public, not because anybody is paying for it.
 
Have they included how useful the energy is?

Only 30% of the energy in a gallon of petrol is converted into energy used to drive a car forward.

In electric vehicles the figure is 90%.
 
Still don't see how EROI is useful without including at least some of all the factors they excluded.

Looking at it briefly does the EROI of for example Nuclear power include the costs of decommissioning nuclear power stations, the storage of the spent fuel and environmental impact?
 
Dunno if they are useful right now or not, but I can see that a fully fledged version would be. At least, it would provide a way of assessing these things beyond sheer financial cost.
 
Read your link. Damned if I can see what data they're using for calculating cost of extraction of shales, and I'm pretty sceptical that it'd be recent enough to reflect the actual cost. Shale extraction is a rapidly developing tech, and the figures I've seen show a lower cost per production than quite a few conventional reservoirs.
 
Have they included how useful the energy is?

Only 30% of the energy in a gallon of petrol is converted into energy used to drive a car forward.

In electric vehicles the figure is 90%.

Under the section 'Extended EROI', they get from 100MJ in the oil well to 20.5MJ in 'Consumer ready fuel' but fail to take the next step which is 'useful work done'. Approx. 6.5MJ
 
We need billions of windmills. Now.
We need a Thorium nuclear program which should have started 30 years ago, which plugs into the existing distribution system.

Better than pissing about with windmills. They might be fine for lighting your caravan or narrowboat, but building the infrastructure with dwindling resources for grid-connected wind power is bonkers.

Talking of actuaries, Gail The Actuary has a blog:

Our Finite World

and an illuminating post here:

Our Energy Supply: Some Basics
 
A recent preliminary report by the State
University of New York, College of Environmental Science and Forestry, (sponsored by
the UK Department for International Development - DFID) assesses EROI for various
global energy resources. See: http://tiny.cc/a4eqrw
from the linked pdf
While EROI analyses generate numerical assessments using quantitative data that include many production factors, they do not include other important data such as climate change, air quality, health benefits, and other environmental qualities that are considered “externalities” to these analyses. These could, with difficulty, be worked into more comprehensive EROIs the future.
Understanding all of the externalities is the issue.
 
I subscribe to the Institute of Actuaries' Resource and Environment Group. This was set up to investigate the effect on growth and the environment of resource usage.

The most recent newsletter has an interesting piece about Energy Return on Investment, which I thought some might be interested in. I reproduce it below.
View attachment 29596
I don't know if you've seen them or not, but I've had a few fairly detailed debates on this on here with Falcon and others.

Just to give you an idea of problems I have with the analysis presented in that paper, it compares apples with pears when comparing coal with renewables, as the vast majority of coal is burned in ~35% efficient power stations to produce electricity, which means that the actual EROEI figure for coal produced energy is nothing like the figures they give, and renewables stack up far better against it and gas than the raw EROEI figures show.

Also with renewables a hell of a lot of it depends on the length of time given for their operation - solar PV typically is given a 20 year lifespan in the calculations, which is nuts - the panels are guaranteed to still produce 80% of their output after 25 years, and will mostly still be giving very useful contributions in 50 years time, with many probably still operating at reduced outputs in 100 years time. I know one array installed in the 70's was recently shown to be still operating at around 92% of it's initial output for example.

I notice Hydro is missing from that graph, probably because it and tidal should have EROEI figures of something like 75:1 or higher depending again on the lifespan used.

I see the report does go into some of this though to some extent.

Another factor that's often missed in all this is the counter point to EROEI, namely the efficiency with which we use the energy, which is on a rapid upward trajectory in most fields eg MPG figures doubling in the last couple of decades at the top end, LED lights using around 10-15% of the energy of a halogen etc.

too late to go into it now, but that's a quick idea of some of the aspects of this situation that IMO tend to get missed, and lead people to view the situation as being much worse than it really is.
 
Just seen that Charlie Hall has a new book out:

Spain's Photovoltaic Revolution: The Energy Return on Investment

...
The authors’ comprehensive analysis of energy inputs, which assigns energy cost estimates to all financial expenditures, yields EROI values that are less than half of those claimed by other investigators and by the solar industry. Sensitivity analysis is used to test various assumptions in deriving these EROI estimates. The results imply that the EROI of current, large-scale PV systems may be too low to seamlessly support an energy and economic transition away from fossil fuels.
 
Have they included how useful the energy is?

Only 30% of the energy in a gallon of petrol is converted into energy used to drive a car forward.

In electric vehicles the figure is 90%.

But surely in electric vehicles you've already lost loads of energy before you turn it on because the power stations that produce the electricity are only around 30% efficient?
 
We need billions of windmills. Now.
It does not take large solutions, just local solutions on a large scale.

EROI is a huge iceberg underneath resource constraints, that number like global all liquids include double counting and some interesting accounting (refinery gain is the change in volume as crudes are converted into lighter fractions, its not more energy, just the same energy in a larger volume. We are still living on the surplus of the 40s, 50 and 60s when the super giants were being discovered so regularly, fields like Burgan complex, Prudhoe and Ghawar. Shallow, great rock porosity, huge volumes so cheap to build the infrastructure to and extract. Most of the new oil and gas is

The new oil is largely from fields that are much deeper so have to have much more lift to overcome gravity, smaller (biggest fields found first), in deep waters or with really bad porosity (tight as a gnats chuff). It takes a huge investment in steel and diesel to build the pipelines, the wells and then lift the viscous oil out through tight rocks, like sucking a milkshake with a very thing long straw (Daniel Plainview being fond of straw analogies).

We have a much bigger challenge than people realize. But that said when people ask me about solutions its not a lack of them I suffer from. There are so many to chose from. But it means change, changing what we demand and changing our expectations.
 
But surely in electric vehicles you've already lost loads of energy before you turn it on because the power stations that produce the electricity are only around 30% efficient?

Yes that's true but if you are comparing different fuel sources you have to make a 'well to wheel' comparison and not just stop at the wellhead as in this report.

On Page 6, Fig. 3 of the report they do show the energy at the wellhead, 100MJ, being converted to energy in a petrol tank, 20.5MJ. The next step is energy used to drive the wheels 7MJ. So a loss of 93%.

In comparison a Solar PV panel installed on a garage roof has losses of maybe 20%.
 
Yes that's true but if you are comparing different fuel sources you have to make a 'well to wheel' comparison and not just stop at the wellhead as in this report.

On Page 6, Fig. 3 of the report they do show the energy at the wellhead, 100MJ, being converted to energy in a petrol tank, 20.5MJ. The next step is energy used to drive the wheels 7MJ. So a loss of 93%.

In comparison a Solar PV panel installed on a garage roof has losses of maybe 20%.

I'm skeptical as to whether a solar panel on a garage roof would generate sufficient power to run a car. IIRC free spirit is a bit of an expert on this stuff.
 
A 5KW system produces about 4000kwh a year in England enough to drive a Nissan Leaf about 12,000 miles per year.

Or 250,000 miles over the 25 year lifespan of the panels (including 1% per year degradation)
 
I have received the following from The Resource and Environment Group. It's not directly related to this thread, but I can't be arsed to start a new one and those most likely to have suggestions are probably already on this thread.

Any suggestions:

****

Dear REG member

As a key project for 2013, the REG Management Committee is to undertake a third literature review. Whilst it is intended that the review will touch on issues of both climate science and resource constraint, providing an update to previous reviews, the principal focus of this project will be to consider the impact of the current financial system on the economy and to explore the potential implications for resource constraint and sustainability.

We are pleased to have secured the help of Professor Richard Werner, Chair in International Banking at Southampton University, as a co-editor for this review alongside Hugh McNeill, Nico Aspinall and myself.

The editors are now seeking help from REG members in identifying suitable papers to focus on as part of this project.

We would be grateful for details (links, copies or titles) of papers/texts that fall within the following broad topic areas:

· The history and role of monetary theory, money systems and credit in our current economy ;
· The suitability or otherwise of GDP as a measure of economic success;
· The role of conventional (neo-classical) economic theory on our financial system and possible alternative economic models (focussing particularly on equilibrium and disequilibrium in economics);
· The role of domestic and international financial structures, systems and institutions in managing economic stability and possible alternative approaches.

We would also be pleased to receive details of any more recent papers/texts that address the potential impacts of climate change and resource constraint on economic growth and the possible implications for actuaries.
 
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