Egypt anti-government protests grow

[sihhi]

Sihhi - the guardian tonight::

That's confusing because Tamarod (Rebellion) is not really a youth organisation at all it's secularist parties getting together to impose elections.
11 Shura council members resigned to push the demands - saying that they've signed the Tamarod petition too and the parliament is a joke - FJP + Al-Nour with 168 out of 270 just rubber stamps Morsi's will.

 

[butchersapron]

That's confusing because Tamarod (Rebellion) is not really a youth organisation at all it's secularist parties getting together to impose elections.

Indeed, was laughing at whoever took over at 12 and the attitude that this will do - some guff i've just read - it's really really insulting.

 

[butchersapron]

Reuters says 14 million.The guardian, who had to burn all last nights papers because they had a story from a loon: hundreds of thousands.

 

[sihhi]

A military source said as many as 14 million people

Perhaps care with that - that would suggest over 16% of the total population one in six

Bearing in mind the not insignificant pro-Morsi crowds and the rural population that seems a very high number. Obviously absolutely massive far, far bigger than either the middle or the end of the anti-Mubarak protests.

Turkey's protests in total had only 3 million.

 

[sihhi]

Having said that apparently CNN are calling it 17 million. So perhaps 14 million one in six is not so ludicrous after all.

Apparently traffic clogged up within the protests had led to more people counted as protestors. Probably the largest single purpose demonstration by numbers since the pre-Iraq war global Saturday 15 February 2003.

 

[petee]

but from the reuters article:

Liberal leaders say nearly half the voting population - 22 million people - has signed a petition calling for new elections

no accounting is given of how they can say that, but all the numbers are astounding
but the NYT also says 100,000s
but more:

In an outpouring of rage late Sunday night, a breakaway group set fire to the headquarters of Mr. Morsi’s Muslim Brotherhood movement in Cairo. Hundreds of attackers with Molotov cocktails vowed to kill anyone inside, and used green pen lasers to search for figures in the windows.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/world/middleeast/egypt.html?hp
edit: i see this was indicated on the previous page
edit2: pix and texts:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/video-and-images-of-anti-morsi-protests/?_r=0

 

[audiotech]

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I wish what is happening in Egypt to happen in Britain

 

[Casually Red]

seen a report of some cops downing batons and joining the demonstrations . A senior police cheif has explained he simply doesnt have the resources to protect various Muslim brotherhood head quarters, which seems like a thinly veiled green light to go ahead and torch them .

http://rt.com/news/cairo-protesters-brotherhood-hq-454/

Police, who have persistently feuded with Morsi, and have mostly ignored his instructions in recent weeks (news reports showed some police officers joining anti-government demonstrations on Sunday) said they had no intention of safeguarding Brotherhood buildings, due to “a lack of manpower.”

 

[teqniq]

I wish what is happening in Egypt to happen in Britain

I sometimes wonder how bad it will have to get here for something similar to happen but maybe that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I sometimes wonder how bad it will have to get here for something similar to happen but maybe that's a discussion for another thread.

It was a thought that struck me after following the events in Egypt last night and then turning on the radio to listen to the news this morning

 

[Divisive Cotton]

seen a report of some cops downing batons and joining the demonstrations . A senior police cheif has explained he simply doesnt have the resources to protect various Muslim brotherhood head quarters, which seems like a thinly veiled green light to go ahead and torch them .

http://rt.com/news/cairo-protesters-brotherhood-hq-454/

Police, who have persistently feuded with Morsi, and have mostly ignored his instructions in recent weeks (news reports showed some police officers joining anti-government demonstrations on Sunday) said they had no intention of safeguarding Brotherhood buildings, due to “a lack of manpower.”

The Muslim Brotherhood are now protecting their own property with their own armed units.

 

[Casually Red]

I sometimes wonder how bad it will have to get here for something similar to happen but maybe that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[teqniq]

Uncomfortably close to the truth I fear.

 

[teqniq]

This is from a site that translates MB articles into English

maginary protests in Downtown Cairo and the streets of Giza

Imaginary protests in Downtown Cairo and the streets of Giza

30/6/2013

Reda Abdel-Wodoud

In an attempt to persuade citizens to take to the streets and participate in protests, a number of cars with microphones attached to them sporadically moved round the streets of Downtown Cairo and some streets in Giza playing recordings of protests. The loud noise caused annoyance to shop owners and residents.

A number of citizens sitting in coffee shops expressed their anger and astonishment at this attempt to rile up the street and delude citizens who preferred to stay at home because of the scenes of violence we are witnessing on television screens into thinking that protests have reached his street and house.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

It has now been reported that the Muslim Brotherhood HQ in Cairo has been ransacked and burnt out after an all-night seige

 

[sihhi]

It has now been reported that the Muslim Brotherhood HQ in Cairo has been ransacked and burnt out after an all-night seige

Happened in the early hours, I think liberals above were trying to prevent it but it happened nonetheless.

Collapsing support:

Collapsing Morsi support.

 

[butchersapron]

Figures for deaths rising rapidly - hearing 17-20 now. The polarisation looks set to continue but possibly now armed.

 

[butchersapron]

I wrote months, maybe years ago, on this thread, that how the brotherhood reacts when it loses power is going to be key to how this plays out in the longer term. I think we are now finding out.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Headline: "The people demand the fall of the Brotherhood"

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Figures for deaths rising rapidly - hearing 17-20 now. The polarisation looks set to continue but possibly now armed.

It's clear that they don't have the support of the security apparatus - and we know how quickly Ben Ali reacted when that was clear in Tunisia

It's only a matter of time - perhaps hours - before they are pushed aside

 

[teqniq]

Hmmm yes there is no doubt that the MB have handled things very badly but the 'uneasy alliance' of liberals, with elements of pro Mubarak supporters and other dodgy types has me wondering how this will all pan out. there are pix of the police taking part in the demo and they have made it very clear that they would not be mobilising officers to protect MB premises due to 'manpower shortages'.

This kinda sums up my feelings of unease:

Sarahcarr: +1 RT @patrickgaley: If the police are on your side in Egypt, you're doing something wrong.

 

[butchersapron]

It's clear that they don't have the support of the security apparatus - and we know how quickly Ben Ali reacted when that was clear in Tunisia

It's only a matter of time - perhaps hours - before they are pushed aside

How are they going to react to that though? They waited in prison (and within the state) for 60 years. What will they do? Who with? Against who? This is really serious stuff, that is about to get seriously messy.

Summary of the Egyptian papers headlines:

State-owned:
al-Ahram: "Egypt abandoned to fear"
al-Akhbar: "Egypt on fire"
al-Gomhoureya: "The longest day in the history of Egypt"
Rose al-Youssef: "The people wants to decide its own fate"

Private press (mostly anti-Morsi):
al-Masri al-Youm: "Revolutionaries to Morsi: one year was enough"
al-Shorouk al-Jadid: "30 June: Egypt delivered to its fate"
Youm al-Saba3e: "Red card for the president: 22 million signatures for Tamarrod"
Al-Tahrir: "Leave!"
al-Destour: "Today is the end of Morsi and of his gang"

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Do you think it could end in an Algerian-style civil war? It's one possibility. It's too early to tell yet how they will react

 

[butchersapron]

Have to say that this all sounds likely

The army will wait it out to the last minute (possibly disastrously so as early intervention might be better in cases of large-scale violence) and may be internally divided about how to proceed (hence the hesitation).

Should Morsi be toppled, it will create an enormous problem with the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamists for years to come. They will feel cheated of legitimately gained power and Egyptian politics will only grow more divisive and violent.

Whatever alliance came together behind the Tamarrod protests will fall apart the day after its successful, because its components are as incompatible as the alliance that toppled Hosni Mubarak.

The leadership around the NSF (ElBaradei, Moussa, Sabahi etc.) has followed rather than led Tamarrod and will not be able to provide effective leadership in the coming days. Only the army can.

If Morsi remains and the protests are repressed or simply die out, the country will nonetheless remain as difficult to govern considering Morsi's lack of engagement with the opposition.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

They are now blaming the gutting of their headquarters on Mubarak loyalists. Well they would say that wouldn't they

 

[sihhi]

Hmmm yes there is no doubt that the MB have handled things very badly but the 'uneasy alliance' of liberals, with elements of pro Mubarak supporters and other dodgy types has me wondering how this will all pan out. there are pix of the police taking part in the demo and they have made it very clear that they would not be mobilising officers to protect MB premises due to 'manpower shortages'.

This kinda sums up my feelings of unease:

Handled things "badly"? They've let the army chiefs and police chiefs off the hook even after they'd killed hundreds and instead gone after journalists and NGOs, let the military keep a hold of their military territory, imposed a constitution to cement their rule rendering all Morsi decisions immune from judicial review, replaced the flag of Egypt in the cabinet chamber with the flag of Islam, started sex segregating the schools, ramped up their anti-Shiite anti-Copt messages to lead to street confrontations and murders and started a wave of privatisations to enrich themselves and to top it all urged action for the Islamists in Syria.

Elements are just that elements not the broad mass.

 

[sihhi]

Have to say that this all sounds likely

Comparisons are often no good but I suppose there are some similarities to Algeria in 1991-1992 which led to civil war, in Turkey the Islamist-centre-right coalition was brought down in 1997-1998 which fed a degree of bitterness such that the AKP was able to gather up liberals, centre-right and Islamists to secure and cement power in a much more careful fashion.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Surely morsi and the MB's only option is to call elections?

 

[teqniq]

sihhi Well ok it was an understatement...

But the army was never going to let them have their chance at power unless they agreed to leave the army be, simple as. That was probably their most major mistake; they might have gotten a lot more people onside if they had held out against them but in any event they have shown their true colours so maybe it was all for the best. What a mess.