Egypt anti-government protests grow

[elbows]

So the military have started making noises about the dark tunnel that a failure for people to indulge in dialogue will lead to. Rumours are rampant that there will soon be martial law and that the military will be given the right to arrest civilians.

Morsi made some very bad mistakes, and the narrow margin by which he won the election has not been sufficiently reflected in the way he has acted. But this is typical of the kind of 'democracy' we are used to as well, and the opposition should not be immune from criticism. I suspect they have very little confidence that they can win elections, so they choose to attack his legitimacy and disrupt or boycott the referendum rather than have it tested at the polls. I am also under the impression that most of the deaths the other day were of MB members, not the opposition. I havent found a good article about this sort of thing yet though, will post one when I do.

In the meantime here are articles about what the military has said and the rumours about military being allowed to arrest people:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/12/20121285565110739.html

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/60034.aspx

 

[elbows]

It's been slated as being pro-MB by some of the anti-MB protestors

Yeah AlJazeera Arabic has been accused of being pro-MB by some for a long time now. I obviously cant really analyse that myself, but the AlJazeera english coverage is certainly a shadow of its former self, its not been very exciting or refreshing since Mubarak fell. Its still better than the crap BBC coverage that lacks depth, but thats not saying much really.

 

[elbows]

The Mahalla stuff is rather interesting and has given some a considerable morale boost, but there isnt very much detail when I try to look today. Some people are taking it at face value and the actual realities as opposed to the symbolism are lost.

 

[elbows]

OK there was a Guardian piece yesterday that covers what I was saying earlier about the opposition, and the deaths were indeed mostly of MB people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/07/egypt-tug-of-war-editorial

 

[elbows]

The Guardian article is going down badly on twitter, not surprising really. Shame I cant judge the reality of the deaths etc for myself.

 

[elbows]

Also I am reminded that liberals are such poor losers. Lazily accusing people of being pro-MB and being rather quiet about their own solutions. Thank fuck they arent the only people in opposition or I'd have lost interest by now.

 

[dennisr]

Protesters in Egyptian industrial capital eject city boss, announce independence – reports
http://rt.com/news/egypt-protesters-announce-independence-572

Claims and counter-claims on the situation in Mahalla. Its hard to know what is going on.

RT reports that: "Meanwhile, unconfirmed reports circulating on Twitter suggest that protesters in four more Egyptian cities – Alexandria, Kafr Sheikh, Sharqaya and Sohag – have declared independence" ... "When protesters went down to the streets, their main demand was to cancel this constitutional declaration,” Osman said. “But today if you see the footage of Egyptians you can hear them asking Morsi to quit, asking him to leave just like they asked Mubarak.”

 

[Divisive Cotton]

The Guardian article is going down badly on twitter, not surprising really. Shame I cant judge the reality of the deaths etc for myself.

The Guardian correspondent in Cairo has put out the following Tweet:

Jack Shenker ‏@hackneylad
Let me say once again, I totally disassociate myself from this @Guardian editorial on #Egypt - it's offensive & wrong: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/07/egypt-tug-of-war-editorial …

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Vice magazine: An Interview with an Egyptian Streetfighter

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/an-interview-with-an-egyptian-streetfighter?utm_source=vicetwitter

So that was an MB guy with a pistol?



Fuck 

yeah.

I also saw some videos of anti-Morsi guys with guns. What do you think of that?



Yes, we had shotguns too, but we didn't have them untill 10/11PM because we couldn't resist without them. It was a last-minute decision



.

Okay, so you felt the need to defend yourselves?

Yes





 

[elbows]

Well in the absence of fine articles that manage to walk a tight line rather than veering off to one side, its probably easier to stick to facts such as the MB elements attacking the protest outside the palace first, rather than the weapons and deaths that came a bit later. And dont get me wrong, I dont have sympathy with the MB, but nor do I have sympathy with those who use the language of elected democracy but only mean it if its their idea that wins. Luckily my own personal preference is for people who struggle on a different level to the religious, liberal or old regime shit, and the missteps by others only further demonstrates the futility of certain 'solutions'. I should probably attempt to find new ways to express myself about this stuff though as I'm not sure I'm doing any justice to the realities with my rants today.

I should probably point out that some of my frustration is due to a notable silence about any of the stuff in the proposed constitution that actually makes dictatorship a tad trickier, such as reducing presidential terms to 4 years and stopping anyone serving more than two consecutive terms. If thats not the sort of thing people were looking for them they should have pushed for a wider-ranging revolution, rather than getting stuck in a pattern of protesting in Tahrir square and having a double-think attitude towards elements of power such as the army back in the first phase of the uprising. I know not all groups were content with that but the disconnection between expectations and what exactly people were prepared to do about it is rather large.

Meanwhile it sounds like before the weekend is out we will find out to what extent Morsi is willing to backtrack. There have been some words about this in recent days, and the overseas voting on the referendum has been delayed, but its sounds like there is more on the way:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...docId=CNG.d150ee82f83e65643e58aa7330b8e91c.21

​

CAIRO — Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi is preparing to amend a controversial decree in which he assumed sweeping powers, Prime Minister Hisham Qandil said on Saturday.​

Morsi tasked six officials who met on Saturday with elements of the opposition to "modify the constitutional declaration" he issued on November 22, Qandil said on private Al-Mihwar television.​

They met to draft a new decree and could finalise it late on Saturday or on Sunday morning, he added.​

Morsi also said he wished to discuss the possibility of postponing a referendum on a draft constitution that the opposition said was rushed through by a panel dominated by Islamists.​

​

 

[elbows]

Sounds like he has rescinded his decree, but I'm still trying to get a clear view of the devilish details.

 

[dylans]

Looks like he blinked.

But referendum on constitution to still go ahead on the 15th

 

[butchersapron]

Sounds like he has rescinded his decree, but I'm still trying to get a clear view of the devilish details.

I think the most compelling interpretation is this one - both of the decree and the 'retreat':

2) Ironically, in fact, Mursi’s speech today was reminiscent not so much of Mubarak’s swan songs in January-February 2011 as of the time-buying proclamations of the SCAF’s Field Marshal Husayn Tantawi over the next year. He’s throwing dissenters a few tiny bones to squabble over while preparing for a referendum that he is confident will render all the contention moot.

That piece also makes the crucial point that this situation has been engineered by the transition structure that the SCAF left in place to protect the military and military linked interests, they managed to manouvere their favoured successor into this position where he is forced to protect them whilst being weakened by the street/left/secular opposition to any moves away from offering that protection or challenging this set up. Another brilliant bit of politics from them.

 

[butchersapron]

General pieces from the last couple of days worth reading:

Morsi Past the Point of No Return

The decline and fall of the Muslim Brotherhood

Why the Anti-Mursi Protesters Are Right

Death Knell for an Old Political Style

 

[Delroy Booth]

good articles there butchers.

Add this one to the list also.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/mariz-tadros/signs-of-islamist-fascism-in-egypt

 

[elbows]

Cheers, those were very good.

I'm not sure why I chose yesterday to go off on an ill-timed rant about the liberals, perhaps I overdosed on one-liners on twitter and got my knickers in a twist about some trying to hype up the strength of the MB on the streets and ignore the losses they suffered in recent days.

I remain frustrated by some of the rather superficial cheering & hyperbole about Mahalla, because I've still read nothing of substance since the initial 'declaration' and its tempting to write it off as nothing more than an excuse for 'revolutionary socialists' to knock out the usual articles in the usual publications. This, and my reaction to it, probably does a great injustice to the struggles taking place there and elsewhere, which I still feel largely starved of english language writing of substance about.

 

[frogwoman]

good articles there butchers.

Add this one to the list also.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/mariz-tadros/signs-of-islamist-fascism-in-egypt

Cheers for that delroy.

 

[elbows]

good articles there butchers.

Add this one to the list also.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/mariz-tadros/signs-of-islamist-fascism-in-egypt

I didnt like that one so much, its left wanting by all the things it misses out (eg deep state) compared to the others.

I also dislike articles that raise the spectre of fascism without exploring whether such tactics are actually working. The fact the MB got their arses kicked and many of their buildings got twatted seem curiously absent in that article, and as I'm writing this I'm getting a flashback to a very similar complaint I made during the 'overthrow Mubarak' stage of proceedings, where articles that were similar in many ways to that one were keen on hyping the power of the security apparatus and thugs despite the fact they were failing to own the streets at the time.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Cheers for that delroy.

Tbf his definition of fascist is all over the place

 

[elbows]

Does anyone elses brain melt at the fact that we've been able to witness a state where people overcame fear and intimidation for getting on for 2 years now, and yet never actually stormed key locations, even when their numbers were huge and violence was in the air? People gather in a few key locations, and will attack buildings associated with particular political factions, security services will at times appear completely absent, and yet there is substantial restraint when it comes to attacking state institutions. Throw in the ambivalent attitude towards the military and I sometimes scratch my head, left wondering whether it is genius or stupid.

 

[elbows]

I'm not sure why I chose yesterday to go off on an ill-timed rant about the liberals, perhaps I overdosed on one-liners on twitter and got my knickers in a twist about some trying to hype up the strength of the MB on the streets and ignore the losses they suffered in recent days.

Think I figured out one of my complaints. I was getting annoyed with people on twitter going 'Why are the Guardian writing a pro-MB article?' Ffs, they are not being pro-MB per se, they are being pro-state, pro shabby electoral democracy. But I suppose I should go easy on people who've lived under a dictatorship for decades making these sorts of errors, they have yet to learn first hand of the 'joys' of wepwesentwative democracy.

 

[elbows]

Just trying to catch up with recent events. Have only just begun, but saw this piece by Mahmoud Salem (Sandmonkey). Worth a read as usual, I will just quote the last bit here as the latter part of it sort of fits as the next chapter of some of the stuff I was ranting about days ago:

http://dailynewsegypt.com/2012/12/10/imagine/

Imagine that with this referendum being 4 days away, and the presidency has no judges to supervise it, doesn’t have the schools to host it, did not open the door for journalists or observers to go in and observe the process, and gave no way for the voters to find out where they are supposed to vote. Your country’s constitution.
Imagine.
Imagine that the secular side is the majority for the first time, with people in the streets all over Egypt viewing this as a referendum on the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsy and want to vote No on both and teach them a lesson.

Imagine them finally rallying behind a unified opposition front, called the National Salvation council, who just yesterday issued that they will boycott the first referendum they actually have a great shot of winning, because they think it’s an illegitimate referendum and we shouldn’t dignify it with our votes, despite it being the country’s constitution and everything.

Just freakin’ Imagine.

 

[elbows]

Ha ha, the other day I was intrigued by news of imminent tax rises on stuff like alcohol and tobacco, said to be part of the IMF deal, and then a quick u-turn postponing the rises.

Well now they have asked for the IMF loan request to be delayed!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324024004578173164103122962.html

​

Egypt's government asked the International Monetary Fund to postpone the country's request for a $4.8 billion loan, as widening social unrest saps the president's ability to impose harsh reforms on Egypt's fragile economy.​

​

Egypt's government requested the delay "in light of the unfolding developments on the ground," the IMF said in a statement Tuesday as thousands of anti-government protesters descended on downtown Cairo.​

​

The request, along with mounting street-level tensions and abortive government efforts to appease protesters, once again pushes Egypt's economy to the brink of collapse.​

​

 

[butchersapron]

Interesting little look at what a lot of people seem to think is a real and growing gap between the MB and their traditional urban support: In Cairo Crisis, the Poor Find Dashed Hopes.

 

[dylans]

Both pro and anti constitution demonstrations taking place today. Reports of heavy clashes, gunshots, burning cars and "men with beards waving swords along the corniche" in Alex

 

[elbows]

This week’s meeting between Defense Minister Abdel Fattah al-Sisi and political forces was cancelled due to pressure from President Mohamed Morsy’s administration, informed sources told Al-Masry Al-Youm on Friday. The Morsy administration denies the claims.

"The administration and President Mohamed Morsy pressed the Armed Forces to cancel the dialogue which was planned for last Wednesday because the Muslim Brotherhood and its [Freedom and Justice] Party refused to attend the meeting, considering it an intervention on part of the Armed Forces in political life," the sources said.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/brotherhood-refused-meeting-defense-minister-sources-say

 

[elbows]

السيد مانكي
‏@Sandmonkey
#Egyptupdate: Salafi leaders yesterday on the salafi hafez channels were urging Mosque imams to get poeple to vote yes. It didn't work well.
@Sandmonkey
#Egyptupdate In NasrCity, an Imam was kicked out, clashes errupted in alexandria because of another Imam who did the same thing. CLASHES!

​

​

 

[elbows]

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/60480.aspx

Clashes have erupted in Alexandria in front of the Qaed Ibrahim mosque and along the nearby corniche between several thousand opponents and supporters of the draft constitution.

The fight extended to the surrounding Azareeta neighbourhood with anti and pro constitution groups exchange slogans and rock throwing.
Stones are being exchanged between the two groups and cars parked on the corniche have been torched. Central Security Forces (CSF) are attempting to end the fighting.

Fighting erupted following Friday prayers at the Qaed Ibrahim mosque where prominent preacher Ahmed El-Mahalawy had urged worshippers to vote 'Yes' in the constitutional referendum on Saturday, stating it would bring stability.

A man with his head wrapped in bandages, told Ahram Online that after the preacher's statement he had started chanting "down with the rule of the Supreme Guide" from inside the mosque. Five sheikhs then beat him up and two of his friends were being detained inside the mosque by members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The early skirmishes halted then erupted again when anti-constitution protesters were attacked by bearded men, an eyewitness told Ahram Online. Many knives were found inside the men's cars so protesters set the cars on fire, the eyewitness added.

 

[dylans]

Some seriously tooled up MB supporters in Alex

 

[butchersapron]

Have you link that shows this is from today?