Egypt anti-government protests grow

[elbows]

Although not completely impossible to imagine if the situation evolves dramatically, there is little sign that the USA wants to apply pressure to the regime, our governments don't want a proper revolution in Egypt.

As for civil war, at no point have we caught even the merest glimpse of feeling throughout the ranks of the army, save for a small number of individuals who have very occasionally joined the protesters and then been subject to military 'justice'. I would love to know what the next generation within the officer ranks think, as the generation with their hands on real power seem to be a bit old & out of touch. But on the other hand under most scenarios where the military regime lose out, the army as a whole have plenty to lose. And despite hearing how much the masses of Egyptians who aren't protesting love the army, and will vote for the Muslim Brotherhood, we don't seem to have seen this influence events on the ground too much.

These and other factors that are not entirely clear to us seem to have repeatedly confounded common wisdom about what would likely happen in Egypt, and Im none the wiser this time around. A lot of the time it seems like various powers still have no clue what to do when faced with a situation where people have lost their fear.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Will a conscript army be willing to massacre their fellow citizens?
This may become the question on which the revolution stands or falls.

 

[elbows]

The square is packed despite the MB not participating.

And the latest news according to some appears to be that a 'national unity government' has been agreed, and that presidential elections will take place 'before July 2012'.

 

[Random]

Christ, good luck to the protestors. It's far far better that we're seeing protests against the military council now, than they're allowed to erect a facade of elections that just rubber stamps the status quo. But I worry that this is just a few thousand urban liberal and leftists, and that a Cairo Commune could get massacred without the rest of the country rising up.

 

[elbows]

Over the weekend numbers often fell quite low, but right now its gone far beyond a few thousand.

 

[elbows]

 

[Random]

It's Captain haddock under that burka

 

[elbows]

The field marshall has spoken. I don't think people were very impressed when he started going on about how the Egyptian military would never kill even a single Egyptian. The crowd in the square are chanting go, go.

 

[silverfish]

I'll be able to have a look first hand this weekend, I'm catching a train from Alexandria to Cairo as some cunty weevil in an office (in the UK) wants to save a 'plane fare

Edit for clarity

honestly what the fuck do these office dwellers watch on their idiot tellyboxes, cartoons, jeremy Kyle and X-fucking factor....certainly not any pertinent national/international news

 

[elbows]

AJE has just had live images from a street in Alexandria where the tear gas and stones are flying.

 

[silverfish]

added to post above

 

[butchersapron]

Don't know the relevance or use of the above.

Tantawi's 'offer' is to gauge id the country will untie behind 'stability'.

 

[elbows]

Tantawi adjusting the timetable may please quite a number of political groups, so it will be interesting to see how many people continue to protest after today. Some want him to step down and for the army to get out of the way, but its not easy to imagine that happening. If they had not made an arse of the following then it wouldn't have come to this:

The possibility of presidential elections not happening till 2013 (now fixed if tonights words can be believed).
That stupid draft constitutional thing that showed all to clearly how the military could remain in real power.
Failure to sufficiently reform/restrain/rebrand the police.
failure to change the state propaganda model.

The first two were the issue for the political groups that protested on Friday. The last two caused the escalation over the weekend. The regime could not have been expected to achieve all of these perfectly before now, but it wouldn't have been hard to do enough to avoid whats happened.

The next 24 hours seem rather important to me. There is a chance that the rather unusual pattern of events we saw in spring and again in recent days may finally veer off in a different, more typical and soul-destroying direction now, if only a very small minority remain. But such is the strange hope and defying of expectations that Egypt has offered us this year that I am unwilling to proclaim this as a cert.

 

[elbows]

Oops I missed military trials of civilians off my list.

 

[silverfish]

Don't know the relevance or use of the above.

Tantawi's 'offer' is to gauge id the country will untie behind 'stability'.

If that was directed at me, apologies for offending your finely tuned geo-political debate.

It was a personal flash at the fact that people making decisions about my movements don't even realise there is political turmoil in Egypt.

Obviously travelling into central Cairo on public transport this weekend has no relevance to the thread in any shape or form

Back on track (no doubt not to your in-depth level of understanding) All the Egyptians I'm working with seem to think tommorow is the tipping point of the situation either calming right down or blowing up massively and are on the phones organising their families to "weather the storm"

I'll get my coat

 

[Random]

I didn't know you were talking about office workers in Egypt, silverfish. Don't get offended just because people misunderstand, when you post something cryptic. Hope you manage to sort out your travel arrangements.

 

[butchersapron]

I apolgise for missing your finely tuned sense of events. Now that you've pointed it out i just don't know how i missed it.

honestly what the fuck do these office dwellers watch on their idiot tellyboxes, cartoons, jeremy Kyle and X-fucking factor....certainly not any pertinent national/international news

 

[silverfish]

I didn't know you were talking about office workers in Egypt, silverfish. Don't get offended just because people misunderstand, when you post something cryptic. Hope you manage to sort out your travel arrangements.

I'm talking about some one in the UK which I find fuckig shameful TBH

edited two posts together to make more sense

anyhow back on track

 

[elbows]

Sandmonkey Mahmoud Salem

Spoke to many people outside #tahrir , the majority liked the #tantawispeech. Just an fyi.

 

[elbows]

Footage from Alexandria earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=zTn9EW4MHFw

There are some reports of 2 deaths there tonight.

The battle down one particular street off Tahrir square in Cairo has not been caught on video very much in recent days, although we often hear about it. I was able to watch it live for a while one evening over the weekend when the 25 channel had a camera on the ground pointing that way, but every time I've tuned into that channel since then they've been showing stuff unrelated to the current unrest. Most other channels seem to have their cameras firmly pointed at the centre of the square, where we normally see crowds and ambulances, and occasionally some teargas if the wind is blowing in a certain direction or the canisters end up making it much further than usual. This footage is somewhat deceptive since it suggests long periods of relative peace, but reports suggest that the battle down one street has hardly had pause for days now.

As usual rumours have started to flow in recent days. This time the focus has been not he tear gas, as many people think its worse stuff than last time. Some people mentioned CR gas, or a wider array of symptoms, and el blah blah used the word nerve gas or nerve agents in an english tweet, which caused further speculation, but all hard evidence I've seen so far has simply pointed at a few different makes of CS gas.

 

[elbows]

Fireworks made for an interesting blend of imagery earlier.

 

[frogwoman]

anyone catch radio 4 on this today? my dad had it on in the car. an utterly shit piece about how "not everyone wants the protests" and they went on to interview some businessmen.

 

[audiotech]

Footage from Alexandria earlier:

I read a comment from a resident in Alexandria, who stated that it's a lot different to Cairo, in that the security forces are more brutal and use live ammunition as a matter of course, so protesters there understandably 'come out onto the streets "scream loudly" and then run away'.

 

[teqniq]

Video showing spasms caused by teargas (via Sarahcarr on Twitter)



also according to Twitter:

cairowire
MT @Repent11 Gas used in #Jan25 mostly USA manufactured by Combined Tactical Systems. #Nov20 mostly Chinese by Norenco, 'much stronger.'

 

[elbows]

A Guardian story about the teargas:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/23/egyptian-military-teargas-tahrir-square

 

[teqniq]

Someone has put up a comprehensive (with caveats) page of

..... a round-up of arms and ammunition being used against protestors in Tahrir right now.

http://treehugginghoolah.blogspot.com/2011/11/tahrir-ammo.html

 

[teqniq]

A Tahrir doctor is reported to have died from tear gas used against demonstrators.

Eyewitnesses say the police shot teargas directly at the field hospital on Mohamed Mahmoud Street, causing the doctor, Rania Fouad, to faint and enter a coma. They also say the police forbade her colleagues from moving her away from the scene.

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/517749

@HebaFarooq
Heba Farouk Mahfouz
RIP,Dr.Rania. she was suffocated 2death by the odorless gas while volunteering at the makeshift hospital in #Tahrir pic.twitter.com/QQ4ovlCQ

https://twitter.com/#!/HebaFarooq/status/139411247488712704/photo/1

 

[elbows]

It may be the sheer quantity of teargas used & weather conditions that are taking their toll, as much as the substances used. Im still waiting for better confirmation that stuff other than CS has been used.

Here is an article which contains some interesting info about the MB and the protesters. In addition to various other splits I think we see a generational split in these events as much as anything else. Theres a reason superpowers have been fretting about the demographics of the middle east for a very long time, huge percentage of youth within most populations in the region.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/27424.aspx

 

[teqniq]

It may be the sheer quantity of teargas used & weather conditions that are taking their toll, as much as the substances used. Im still waiting for better confirmation that stuff other than CS has been used.....

I saw a tweet earlier which suggested some of it might be this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CR_gas

E2A thanks for article.

 

[nino_savatte]

anyone catch radio 4 on this today? my dad had it on in the car. an utterly shit piece about how "not everyone wants the protests" and they went on to interview some businessmen.

I heard Jeremy Bowen say the same thing earlier on the telly, so probably the same report. It's as if the BBC is trying to suggest that we shouldn't think about emulating the Egyptian occupiers because they don't have a 'mandate' but then nor does our government.