Disruption at Book Fairs

[smokedout]

But blaming others aside, it shouldnt be so easy for a handful of people to upset the ecosystem to such an extent.

Just picking up on this. I think the London situation was pretty unique and one problem was that a very large and difficult event had been organised for a long time by an ever shrinking group of people who in retrospect were not given the support that was necessary for the event to be robust enough to weather things like this, particularly as personal relationships were also very much a factor. A more broadly organised bookfair, with more people putting in some graft, would probably have survived.

 

[Thimble Queen]

A guy called Jacob Joyce made the complaint, very publically so no problem naming him here (open letter, much shared social media post) - he's not in any way an anarchist it turns out, on being asked. So no big surprise. A problem is the actions of people with no particular commitments to anarchism and no investment in its success, or care in their actions helping to bring it down. That Jen Isaacson tweet above represents it perfectly.

But blaming others aside, it shouldnt be so easy for a handful of people to upset the ecosystem to such an extent. What about anarchist/community 'policing'? The trans supporters at the London fair said they were acting in that spirit, and its a fair point. If anyone has thought out ideas on that Id be interested to hear them.

What is a traditional anarchist response to (potentially violent) disagreements? Anarchist FAQ mentions a book called Returning to the Teachings: Exploring Aboriginal Justice as a source of ideas. God knows. The Anarcho Feminist group set out clear lines and positions, on paper, for their event, but when people wilfully break those guidelines, what happens next? A more open united clear response is needed.

Ah 're Jacob Joyce I was under the impression they are an anarchist. Not doubting what you say but would deffo be interested to see where they clarified this.

 

[LDC]

Just picking up on this. I think the London situation was pretty unique and one problem was that a very large and difficult event had been organised for a long time by an ever shrinking group of people who in retrospect were not given the support that was necessary for the event to be robust enough to weather things like this, particularly as personal relationships were also very much a factor. A more broadly organised bookfair, with more people putting in some graft, would probably have survived.

I think that's an optimistic take on it seeing as many other events and groups have imploded along similar lines, I think the London Bookfair was more spectacular as it was bigger and is more of a established event, rather than it being unique.

 

[co-op]

And there it is, trans equal paedo, based on one creepy weirdo, one very strange eccentric and an unconfirmed and probably made up tabloid story youve managed to find by searching the worlds media. Interesting how the boundaries keep edging outwards to include the wider LGBT community and kink as well. Are you going to go full loon and claim its all some giant paedo conspiracy next?

But anyway, there's another thread for this, this thread is for anarchists discussing bookfairs.

Why don’t you address the very specific examples of dodginess raised by qwerty rather than just throwing up your usual smokescreen of “transphobia!”? You’re such a fraud - you pretend that you’re this impeccable liberal all concerned with the rights of an oppressed minority but the minute you get real feedback about people’s fears and experiences of real life you just start the parrot chant of “bigot” and all the rest of it. You don’t give a shit about anyone outside of your little club.

 

[ska invita]

Ah 're Jacob Joyce I was under the impression they are an anarchist. Not doubting what you say but would deffo be interested to see where they clarified this.

Was asked online Are You An Anarchist and said something about queer theory - sounded like a clear No to me. The thread has since been deleted.

I think that's an optimistic take on it seeing as many other events and groups have imploded along similar lines, I think the London Bookfair was more spectacular as it was bigger and is more of a established event, rather than it being unique.

agree. Its not about numbers/relations of organisers but about how to deal with irreconcilable conflict IMO

 

[co-op]

I wouldnt go to anarchist bookfairs. Since the kick off with Occupy in 2012, and now this "terf war", I feel like I wouldnt be safe attending them, physically safe probably, but not psychologically safe.

I am not a radical feminist, I'm a Marxist feminist...so I'm not a TERF by those who use the term accurately, but I am most definately a TERF to those who would use it as a slur. I am becoming frightened at some aspects of the trans movement. I have seen cis women assaulted, hounded online, lost employment, lost reputation, been excluded from their faith community, kicked out of events and suffer the serious emotional illhealth through of this.

I dont think that "woman" is a synonym for "adult human female". But I knew for damn sure that some of the people who were male assigned at birth who have uttered the magic words "I am a woman" are men. Not all, definitely not all, but a number of them....and that number is growing.

Who can seriously think that the child murderer Huntley is a woman (and a lesbian no less).
Who can seriously think that Wolsht is anything other than a creepy man with an unhealthy obsession with children.
Who can seriously think that Yaniv (who appears to have extensive power over major publishing platforms) is not simply seeking out "acceptable" ways to abuse young girls.

Back in the 1970s, the Gay Rights movement (as it was then) was infiltrated by the pedophile information network, before finally kicking them to the kerb in the early 80s. Ignoring of the dangers of this organisation, dangers that women had been pointing out to them, cost them dearly. The 80s backlash which conflated gay men and child abusers severely impacted their health, wellbeing and lives, in the face of the AIDS crisis. I believe that there will be a horrible backlash against trans people unless the trans community acts to root out the creepy, rapey cis men in their midst who are piggybacking on their legitimate struggle.

These are exactly and specifically the type of men that I dont want to be around....ever ....and they are exactly and specifically the men that are now demanding access to those areas designed to keep them the fuck away from us.

Trans women's boundaries are by definition blurred, there are different modesty rules for female and male children for example. Trans women have used public facilities with men pre-transition. Trans women have not been targetted in the same way by creepy rapey men (they may well have been targetted, but the tactics used to victimise children who are AFAB and AMAB differs). Trans people's creep radar is different....and the transphobia of trans people being seen as freaks leads them to a level of empathy with other AMAB people who are also seen as freaks. Just like in the 1970s Gay Rights movement, many older gay men remembered a frustrated gay youth and wanted the next generation to be proud in their sexuality. But there needs to be an awareness that there are bad men out there, who groom people to accept the unacceptable.

This conversation needs to start happening urgently in the trans community. Cis women are highlighting it because it is being ignored, and that is taking a massive toll on the feminist community. The feminist community is fighting shitload of issues - universal credit, housing crisis, child poverty, NHS services, WASPI, spycops, gender paygap, metoo, sexual harassment, vaginal mesh, school cuts - all of which disproportionately affect women. This whole thing takes up so so much energy - the endless highlighting of the issues, the hounding, the psychic field hospitals that have to be set up around some women who are taking absolute psychological batterings online....those who disappear never to speak about it again, because speaking is too risky.

I dont feel safe any more in any environment where the term "TERF" is not seen as hate-speech.

I dont feel safe writing this.

Spot on. Absolutely spot on. There are so many people on here who are afraid to say what they think because they know that the repercussions on their lives are real and dangerous. People who can’t post because they can’t quite remember who knows who they are from some U75 offline gig 15 years ago and might get their job fucked up now for saying something forbidden by the trans police. Fuck you smokedout you’re a dishonest arsehole, weeping about your oppression while demanding that I “name names”.

Fuck you.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Was asked online Are You An Anarchist and said something about queer theory - sounded like a clear No to me. The thread has since been deleted.


agree. Its not about numbers/relations of organisers but about how to deal with irreconcilable conflict IMO

I do wonder then, why they give a shit about what goes on at bookfair

 

[smokedout]

I think that's an optimistic take on it seeing as many other events and groups have imploded along similar lines, I think the London Bookfair was more spectacular as it was bigger and is more of a established event, rather than it being unique.

Maybe you're right, but I got the impression the organisers were pretty burnt out before this even started and the row and aftermath was enough to make them call it a day. Manchester seems to have weathered the storm so far, as did the Radical Bookfair in London.

 

[ska invita]

I do wonder then, why they give a shit about what goes on at bookfair

because he pracitices an african religion and Its Not Stupid. Open letter incoming >>>>>>>>>>

(in case that wasnt clear, he was arguing about the Religion Is Stupid banner, and it was the soruce of his open letter and social media attack postings)

 

[Sea Star]

I wouldnt go to anarchist bookfairs. Since the kick off with Occupy in 2012, and now this "terf war", I feel like I wouldnt be safe attending them, physically safe probably, but not psychologically safe.

I am not a radical feminist, I'm a Marxist feminist...so I'm not a TERF by those who use the term accurately, but I am most definately a TERF to those who would use it as a slur. I am becoming frightened at some aspects of the trans movement. I have seen cis women assaulted, hounded online, lost employment, lost reputation, been excluded from their faith community, kicked out of events and suffer the serious emotional illhealth through of this.

I dont think that "woman" is a synonym for "adult human female". But I knew for damn sure that some of the people who were male assigned at birth who have uttered the magic words "I am a woman" are men. Not all, definitely not all, but a number of them....and that number is growing.

Who can seriously think that the child murderer Huntley is a woman (and a lesbian no less).
Who can seriously think that Wolsht is anything other than a creepy man with an unhealthy obsession with children.
Who can seriously think that Yaniv (who appears to have extensive power over major publishing platforms) is not simply seeking out "acceptable" ways to abuse young girls.

Back in the 1970s, the Gay Rights movement (as it was then) was infiltrated by the pedophile information network, before finally kicking them to the kerb in the early 80s. Ignoring of the dangers of this organisation, dangers that women had been pointing out to them, cost them dearly. The 80s backlash which conflated gay men and child abusers severely impacted their health, wellbeing and lives, in the face of the AIDS crisis. I believe that there will be a horrible backlash against trans people unless the trans community acts to root out the creepy, rapey cis men in their midst who are piggybacking on their legitimate struggle.

These are exactly and specifically the type of men that I dont want to be around....ever ....and they are exactly and specifically the men that are now demanding access to those areas designed to keep them the fuck away from us.

Trans women's boundaries are by definition blurred, there are different modesty rules for female and male children for example. Trans women have used public facilities with men pre-transition. Trans women have not been targetted in the same way by creepy rapey men (they may well have been targetted, but the tactics used to victimise children who are AFAB and AMAB differs). Trans people's creep radar is different....and the transphobia of trans people being seen as freaks leads them to a level of empathy with other AMAB people who are also seen as freaks. Just like in the 1970s Gay Rights movement, many older gay men remembered a frustrated gay youth and wanted the next generation to be proud in their sexuality. But there needs to be an awareness that there are bad men out there, who groom people to accept the unacceptable.

This conversation needs to start happening urgently in the trans community. Cis women are highlighting it because it is being ignored, and that is taking a massive toll on the feminist community. The feminist community is fighting shitload of issues - universal credit, housing crisis, child poverty, NHS services, WASPI, spycops, gender paygap, metoo, sexual harassment, vaginal mesh, school cuts - all of which disproportionately affect women. This whole thing takes up so so much energy - the endless highlighting of the issues, the hounding, the psychic field hospitals that have to be set up around some women who are taking absolute psychological batterings online....those who disappear never to speak about it again, because speaking is too risky.

I dont feel safe any more in any environment where the term "TERF" is not seen as hate-speech.

I dont feel safe writing this.

This is one of the most bigoted and disusting diatribes I've ever read on Urban -or anywhere. Full of bullshit and stitched together from smears, lies and innuendo. Not an ounce of evidence. It's fucking appalling and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[co-op]

This is one of the most bigoted and disusting diatribes I've ever read on Urban -or anywhere. Full of bullshit and stitched together from smears, lies and innuendo. Not an ounce of evidence. It's fucking appalling and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I hope people read it and compare it with this post of yours.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

This is one of the most bigoted and disusting diatribes I've ever read on Urban -or anywhere. Full of bullshit and stitched together from smears, lies and innuendo. Not an ounce of evidence. It's fucking appalling and you should be ashamed of yourself.

As someone who wants to find out more about the issues here, you've completely lost me as an interested listener with this attack on what seemed to me to be a well written post. If you think it's bullshit - set out why, with a reasoned argument and some evidence to back it up. Otherwise, you are the one that comes over as a bigot.

 

[Athos]

As someone who wants to find out more about the issues here, you've completely lost me as an interested listener with this attack on what seemed to me to be a well written post. If you think it's bullshit - set out why, with a reasoned argument and some evidence to back it up. Otherwise, you are the one that comes over as a bigot.

Good luck with that. Lol.

 

[Sea Star]

As someone who wants to find out more about the issues here, you've completely lost me as an interested listener with this attack on what seemed to me to be a well written post. If you think it's bullshit - set out why, with a reasoned argument and some evidence to back it up. Otherwise, you are the one that comes over as a bigot.

the post i criticised contained no evidence - why are you not asking them to provide evidence for what they said? I don't really take kindly to having to prove i'm not a paedo or a paedo apologist - how about you?

 

[Sea Star]

honestly if you want a reasoned debate about trans issues then it has to be lifted out of the gutter. The claims of child abuse and rape, etc has been addressed to death on Urban but people keep going there.If you want to learn stop pissing everyone else off with unsubstantiated and bigoted claims.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

honestly if you want a reasoned debate about trans issues then it has to be lifted out of the gutter. The claims of child abuse and rape, etc has been addressed to death on Urban but people keep going there.If you want to learn stop pissing everyone else off with unsubstantiated and bigoted claims.

I've not made any claims - I'm ignorant in this, I'll admit. But your attitude has turned me off wanting to learn more of your side of the argument. I am prejudiced about loud screamy types who want to shut down discussion (on both sides), but since you are louder and screamier, you've lost me. Now, I'll just keep out of this whole issue and probably continue in my ignorance and in your view bigotry. I expect you'll chalk that up as a win.

 

[PeterTCA]

Maybe you're right, but I got the impression the organisers were pretty burnt out before this even started and the row and aftermath was enough to make them call it a day. Manchester seems to have weathered the storm so far, as did the Radical Bookfair in London.

The constant de-railing of this post reflects the intrusions of Book Fairs over the past few years. Nothing at all is said about the
20-odd stallholders, the speakers and the networking at Manchester. To gain publicity all you have to do is disrupt an event.

Book fairs are only one part of the movement. They are organised by small groups of activists. Securing city-centre premises
is not always easy. Venues come with T&Cs (no smoking, no alcohol, or as was the case with Partisan, no trans-phobes).

I would be happy to see many more Book Fairs, arranged around the country, by a variety of people. You do not need
permission. You just take on responsibility.

All you need to do is spend a few months working on the idea, investing some money, drumming up publicity, and inviting stallholders and speakers.
It's thankless work. And as an organiser, you end up branded as a Fascist (London) or a Stalinist (Manchester).

 

[Riklet]

I still feel very stuck between both the sides on the whole trans stuff. And the vitriolic posts online only make me less sure. I think that's a good post from qwerty to some extent but I can also see the other side - to deny that many trans people dont suffer and arent seriously oppressed is to have your head in the sand.

When so many shit things happen to women daily around the world often pretty much unchallenged, focusing on trans people as a particularly risk seems pretty loony.

But it's the risk of identity politics and only viewing people as a little happy homogenous collective group - criticism of a few scumbags is taken as an insult to all. Which community or society around the world doesnt have people making mistakes? fucking up? or worse, doing horrendous things.

The feeling for me is that this can now no longer be discussed or approached fully at left/anarchist events because someone might take it as an affront to their identity, their rights etc.

 

[Sea Star]

And as an organiser, you end up branded as a Fascist (London) or a Stalinist (Manchester).

still way better than being branded a perverted,misogynist child rapist.

 

[Sea Star]

I think that's a good post from qwerty to some extent

But why? Was it the bit that said weirdo trans people assigned male at birth like me were more likely to sympathise with child rapists?

 

[Riklet]

But why? Was it the bit that said weirdo trans people assigned male at birth like me were more likely to sympathise with child rapists?

I think as a post it's coherent and honest and sincere and attempts to address some of the issues in a rational manner. You have consistently failed to do exactly that. This is not to attack you as a person or to invalidate the struggles you have faced or to act out of spite - I think all of those things have happened in this thread btw - but merely my perception of a difficult issue where there is a lot of grey areas.

FWIW I didn't interpret their post as saying that or being written out of biggotry and I dont agree with everything they said anyway. And I definitely wouldn't agree with what youve written. I feel sad and angry to see the hate coming out towards trans people, even though I think it's just more out in the open now, more messy. More public than before. I do have hope that with dialogue and communication at least some of the issues can be addressed and lives can be made better as a result. I don't however believe these complicated challenging issues can be solved by magic though, just by blindly accepting gender self-definition and "shutting down" anyone who might cause offense to some group in society. Critically analyzing whether any 40 year old man can expect to just suddenly "become" a lesbian woman and have everyone accept that as in some way positive is perfectly valid, even without mentioning Ian Huntley at all.

The growing perception all across society right now is that people cannot really express themselves freely, cannot say what they want, or that debate must be censored. I think this is often exaggerated but there is some truth in it. The behaviour by activists on both sides does seem to contribute to this at the moment. The physical assaults, abuse and insults, shit behaviour on social media, stalking, pressuring people's workplaces, cancelling events etc. I am not saying there is never a time and a place for these things, I think they are all appropriate in certain situations of gravity - but not in a debate about fucking unisex toilets or what's best for teenagers. People have to be listened to and included in a free and fair debate - education cannot happen if people are not free to participate, to challenge or even to reject.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

the post i criticised contained no evidence - why are you not asking them to provide evidence for what they said? I don't really take kindly to having to prove i'm not a paedo or a paedo apologist - how about you?

But nobody has called you a paedo or a paedo apologist. So you don't have to prove anything.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not sure exactly what you mean? perhaps worth considering and remembering what happened at the anarchafeminist all-dayer in 2014

I wasnt there so cant tell you exactly what happened but my recollection is
.. The organisers got badly burned by the fighting on the day and aftermath storm and won't be organising another one (such a shame and waste that, gutting, i think it was a really useful initiative)
.. have a guess what issue it was that created all the stress
.. some of the same names cropped up there as other events under discussion here. Pretty sure Helen Steel was one of those involved (apologies if i got that wrong)

Heres a write up with one of the people involved on a practical level, written in the immediate aftermath

"A group of trans exclusionary radical feminists (known as TERFs for short) tried to undermine the event. Someone who had been on the organiser list from the start lied about their willingness to uphold the inclusion policy to other organisers. They then positioned themselves to help present the Introduction to Anarcha-Feminism where they went off the presentation planned with the co-facilitator in order to spout some transphobic bile. At the same time they were seen conferring with other terfs before they dispersed into each session and parrot the same transphobic talking points, and appeared to be using the quiet space to regroup and plan.

Attempts were made to remove the TERFs by some of the organisers but this unity was undermined and they used the confusion caused by sabotage of the consensus we had otherwise forged for the event to hang about. Despite this betrayal and sabotage, everyone I talked with found that any move towards transphobic discussion was quickly shut down and made unwelcome, and that the issue was handled better than most events. However, there was still a lack of consistency on how those breaking with the safer spaces agreement were dealt with."

That account basically matches what a friend who was there says happened.
"Betrayal and sabotage", too strong? Hard to disagree with that. I think thats what it amounts to.

A reminder of their publicly stated inclusion policy

It's interesting that the author states "Attempts were made to remove the TERFs by some of the organisers but this unity was undermined...".

Attempts by "some of the organisers" kind of contradicts the talk of "unity", doesn't it.? As for the self-backpatting about dealing with transphobia, that is kind of "ew!", given that a predicate of anarchism is equality, and that means a forum for both sides of the trans argument, or none at all, not a taking of sides, as appears to have happened.

Apols for late response.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It really isnt about free speech at this point. Its about how to stop/avoid fights (verbal and physical) breaking out, disrupting peaceful events, again and again and again and again and again and again.

A "crime" that both sides of the argument are guilty of.

Freedom of speech is an enlightenment ideal, and who would be against that? But the notion of debating in a reasoned manner to find a deeper truth needs to be set out with that goal in mind. A debating chamber has rules and expectations of behaviour. These restraining rules and expectations are out the window in whats happening at public meetings.

IF your meeting has a policy of ruling out a particular subject, or a particular group of people, then it's not so much a public meeting, as a private endeavour.

Funnily enough the likes of radio, tv and print media bring back some of those rules of conduct, which is partly why the debate can be had fairly safely and reasonably within those spaces.

In a free for all space of a corridor or hall or toilet or speakers corner its gloves off, take no prisoners and no backing down from either side. Its fuck the organisers requests, fuck the organisers guidelines, fuck any attempts to defuse confrontation, fuck the other side, fuck who ever gets caught in the fray, and fuck the long term consequences for others, maximum upset for retweets. <<<what has any of that got to do with freedom of speech? (other than as a figleaf of martyrdom to guilt trip with in the aftermath)

I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. Have you ever been in a "free-for-all" melee? They usually end in serious injury at the least, not just bruises and bloody noses. As for the suggestion that either side is deliberately provoking conflict in order to garner material for social media, grow the fuck up.[/quote]

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not really because the people they are protesting are people who are willing to listen to their nonsense and the idea that all women are oppressed all the time by all men is nonsense of the worst kind.

No such idea really exists in feminisms. The "all men" refers to male-dominated institutional and structural inequality being an oppressive force on women all of the time. It's called patriarchy.

 

[mojo pixy]

it's an oppressive force on men all of the time, too, which is why men should all be feminists and not ''MRAs''.

i'm only saying because I meet men all the time who do not get this simple fact (probably not here at Urban but elsewhere definitely).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wow...they actually published that.

It's Pink News. They're pretty much the sine qua non of anti-lesbian publishing, at the moment.

 

[ViolentPanda]

it's an oppressive force on men all of the time, too, which is why men should all be feminists and not ''MRAs''.

i'm only saying because I meet men all the time who do not get this simple fact (probably not here at Urban but elsewhere definitely).

It's an oppressive force mainly via class for men, in a much more asymmetrical way than it is for women though, IMO. That is, the higher up the class hierarchy a man ascends, the exponentially less influence patriarchy exerts. Women further up the class hierarchy still have the overarching expectations of their supposedly-primary gender role - to produce and rear offspring.

 

[smokedout]

It's Pink News. They're pretty much the sine qua non of anti-lesbian publishing, at the moment.

Do you feel the same about Diva who have been equally trans supportive?

Are you going to join the ranks of straight men currently carefully explaining to trans supportive lesbians why they aren't proper lesbians? I thought you were better than this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck off kabbes, if you want to discuss the latest fantastical smear about paedophile infiltrating transgender then take it to the other thread and let it be exposed for the nasty bigoted shit it is I'm not going to respond to any of this crap further on this thread.

Or better still fuck off to mumsnet.

The problem is that paedophiles infiltrate anywhere that provides them an opportunity to access children. We know this from the sheer diversity of situations in which paedophiles have been found, including political, ideological and philosophical movements.