Death following arrest: Sean Rigg

[detective-boy]

If you are sitting alone in the cage why might you stop breathing? Can it happen as a result of excited delirium even when nobody is manhandling you?

You can certainly stop breathing without anyone manhandling you - people collapse and stop breathing with no-one near them at the point of collapse in all sorts of situations (perhaps sports collapses would be the best equivalent - lots of exertion and then collapse and breathing stops a little while later).

The whole excited delirium thing is not at all well understood. There used to also be something called SADS (Sudden Adult Death syndrome - an equivalent of Sudden Infant Death syndrome where there is collapse / death for no apparent reason) but I don't know whether that is still seen as a specific syndrome in it's own right or whether things have moved on.

There ARE some statistical things becoming apparent about excited delirium - it appears to affect black males disproportionately, there seems to be some correlation with drug and / or alcohol use and there seems to be some correlation with mental illness ... but I have not seen specific, peer-reviewed research establishing any of these things for sure and there are, of course, lots of other reasons why some or all of these features may co-occur without there being any actual link.

As I have said before, whilst we go into all these types of cases with a "the police have beaten him to death" conclusion in our minds from the outset we will never actually get to the bottom of what the causes actuallyare so that we can help make sure they don't happen again. In any particular case the police may have actually killed a prisoner by excessive use of force ... but that is only one of a number of explanations and, on the basis of the outcome of the enquiries which take place, a very unlikely one. More likely is that a careless or slightly excessive use of force in restraint has caused / contributed to death, or that lack of care and attention has controbuted to it, even though all use of force has been lawful and justifiable. Campaigners who immediately encourage families to go down the "beaten to death" route are not helpful.

 

[Pickman's model]

You can certainly stop breathing without anyone manhandling you - people collapse and stop breathing with no-one near them at the point of collapse in all sorts of situations (perhaps sports collapses would be the best equivalent - lots of exertion and then collapse and breathing stops a little while later).

it just seems to happen far more often to people in the good hands of the police than it does to, for example, the police themselves.

 

[detective-boy]

As for the CCTV, it is a bit odd - on the one hand people here appear to be suggesting its missing, on the other the Grauniad are saying that there is footage (albeit obscured) of Rigg in the cage:

I think there is no footage from the camera(s) which have clear sight of the cage (if I remember rightly there was one on an external wall of the station pointed at the cage). The footage referred to would seem to refer to cameras inside the custody suite and around it's door, which wouldn't have full, clear views of the cage (but, judging by the description of what was seen, sufficient to see that he was definitely not have seven bells of shit kicked out of him as seems to be being alleged ...). If this is the case, and there is some footage but not all the footage because a camera was defective, would also explain why the Chief Inspector confirmed there was footage from the outset - her comments are not precise enough to know whether or not she meant all cameras were working 100% or just that there was some footage which had been viewed / secured.

 

[agricola]

I think there is no footage from the camera(s) which have clear sight of the cage (if I remember rightly there was one on an external wall of the station pointed at the cage). The footage referred to would seem to refer to cameras inside the custody suite and around it's door, which wouldn't have full, clear views of the cage (but, judging by the description of what was seen, sufficient to see that he was definitely not have seven bells of shit kicked out of him as seems to be being alleged ...). If this is the case, and there is some footage but not all the footage because a camera was defective, would also explain why the Chief Inspector confirmed there was footage from the outset - her comments are not precise enough to know whether or not she meant all cameras were working 100% or just that there was some footage which had been viewed / secured.

Thats probably more likely, its just a shame that the Guardian have put the story in such a way that one could easily take the view that there is no CCTV because it is "lost".

 

[detective-boy]

Thats probably more likely, its just a shame that the Guardian have put the story in such a way that one could easily take the view that there is no CCTV because it is "lost".

I'm surprised that you're surprised at that ... like all the media they don't miss an opportunity to spin the story to suit their audience and prejudices and they know damn well that by careful phraseology they can influence what people actually read into what they print.

 

[tarannau]

Isn't this story a little too familiar, even to you DB? CCTV goes missing again, the family feel as though the IPCC are being obstructive and favour the police, they're misled about the extent of his injuries and misleading stories have reached the press.

Whatever happened in this affair, it's clear that the IPCC are about as independent as Matsui from Dixons.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm surprised that you're surprised at that ... like all the media they don't miss an opportunity to spin the story to suit their audience and prejudices and they know damn well that by careful phraseology they can influence what people actually read into what they print.

so it's all a media conspiracy then

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Isn't this story a little too familiar, even to you DB? CCTV goes missing again, the family feel as though the IPCC are being obstructive and favour the police, they're misled about the extent of his injuries and misleading stories have reached the press.

Whatever happened in this affair, it's clear that the IPCC are about as independent as Matsui from Dixons.

To be fair, the IPCC are massively overstretched and underfunded. I know someone who left them because they felt they were overwhelmed by the sheer volume of cases that deserved better scrutiny than they got.

 

[detective-boy]

Isn't this story a little too familiar, even to you DB? CCTV goes missing again, the family feel as though the IPCC are being obstructive and favour the police, they're misled about the extent of his injuries and misleading stories have reached the press.

It would be if those things were proven in lots of cases ... but they're not.

There is no evidence that CCTV has "gone missing" in this case. From what is known, it would appear most likely that a camera was not being recorded at the time. That is not the same as CCTV "going missing" and anyone who has had anything to do with a CCTV system will tell you, especially one which is old enough to still be recording on VHS tapes as this appears to be, that is not an unusual occurence.

The family's perception of the IPCC and the information they are provided is pretty commonplace ... but also pretty much inevitable because they have little if any understanding of the complexities of investigation and they tend to have massively too high expectations (not helped by the media, who also have ridiculous expectations) of what is and is not possible and of the timescaes. I have actually been employed to act as an independent advisor to a family and their solicitors in a re-investigation case and the number of times they would have entirely misinterpreted what they were told had I not been their to add context and explanation even amazed me (their solicitors were certainly nobody's fool but even they read far more into what had been said than was actually there).

Personally I think that whilst giving the family little updates all the time, whilst for admirable motives, may actually do more harm than good because it keeps raising hopes and expectations that maybe are not there and then, when something which was anticipated doesn't happen they start to believe that there is some sort of cover-up or fuck-up ... when that is just the nature of investigation - things appear and then disappear again. I think there definitely needs to be more use of written briefings for families, stressing caveats and "what if's" so that there is no argument about what they are told.

The being "misled" about the extent of injuries is perhaps an example of this - in any PM there are pages and pages of details of the pathologists examination. These include all sorts of notes of injuries, general health, signs of disease, etc. The focus (understandably) is on anything which is connected to the cause of death and when details are summarised to be passed on, stuff that is considered non-relevant stuff tends to be missed out. I doubt very much that the information provided was ever intended to be an absolute list of all injuries, etc. It may have been mistakenly perceived as that, or when a question like "Were there any more injuries?" was answered "No, that was it" by an officer who has probably got a briefing about a briefing about a briefing about the actual PM report there may have been a misperception of how that answer would be interpreted.

As for "misleading stories reaching the press" we've been here a million times: there is absolutely no way you can use what the media publish as being absolute evidence of what they have been told. They pick and choose what they wish to publish and they spin it their way to their hearts content. (Classis example: JCdM and the persistent story that the police said he had been seen jumping the barriers wearing bulky coat, etc. They didn't. Some random "witness" put live to air by the media said that. The police mistake was not to correct it later. But they most definitely did not start the story.)

Whatever happened in this affair, it's clear that the IPCC are about as independent as Matsui from Dixons.

Which is rather sad as they traded competence for independence and, through their mismanagement of cases, they haven't even established that ...

Perhaps it is proof that symbolism is no substitute for competence and effectiveness.

Overall the damage caused by misinterpretation of partial information provided as soon as possible but treated as absolute gospel when it cannot possibly be is so bad that maybe we should go back to the old system of not releasing anything until it is absolutely known for sure, checked, double-checked, cross-checked, corroborated and confirmed ... but that would mean families knowing nothing for ages.

 

[gabi]

*yawn* I'm assuming you're here defending the indefensible again db?

 

[Pickman's model]

(Classis example: JCdM and the persistent story that the police said he had been seen jumping the barriers wearing bulky coat, etc. They didn't. Some random "witness" put live to air by the media said that. The police mistake was not to correct it later. But they most definitely did not start the story.)

this is the first appearance of that story in the press according to nexis:

Aberdeen Evening Express

July 22, 2005

People were screaming and crying and pushing each other to get out

SECTION: News; 999; Murders/violentcrime; Pg. 4

LENGTH: 981 words

London commuters today described their terror as the suspected suicide bomber was shot dead by police. They told of scenes of panic and chaos around Stockwell tube station.
Here are some of their accounts: HELEN BEESLEY, LONDON: I was at one end of the train on the Northern Line train at Stockwell station at 10am when suddenly lots of people at the other end started shouting 'Get off! Get off!' and running down the platform away from the train.
I heard five gun shots, although did not see anything as I was running away from the train trying to find an exit. We all followed each other and reached a dead end on the Victoria line platform. Everyone was very frightened and didn't know where to go.
A Victoria line train pulled in a few seconds later and everyone banged on the doors until the driver opened the doors.
Everyone in my carriage lay down low in the carriage as we didn't know if the person with the gun had got onto our train or not.
People were shaking and crying.
JAMES TURNER, LONDON I got on the Northern Line train waiting in the station, and then a big group of plain-clothes armed police officers ran on the train and started shouting at someone.
All the passengers were frozen at first, but then we began to run out the door. As I was leaving the carriage I heard a small bang, and then ran up the stairs. People were screaming and crying and pushing each other to get out.
Some were running up the down escalator. There were tube staff and one uniformed police officer at the top telling everyone to stay calm.
JOHNNIE TONNER, LONDON I've never seen blind panic in my life until today.
Sitting on the Northern line train at Stockwell, and all of a sudden the driver was screaming: "Everyone off the train, we're evacuating the station." On the platform I heard four or five gun shots coming from the front of the train.
Everyone, about 100 people, panicked and just started running as far away from the shots as possible. We streamed into the opposite platform and realised that we were running into a dead end. People were wide-eyed and screaming.
A few people looked as if they were ready to jump onto the tracks.
The driver wouldn't open the doors and we're hammering on the glass shouting to open the doors. Eventually he did and we got out of there.
They let us off at Pimlico station and people were just slumped on the kerb bawling. No one had a clue what had happened.
FIONA SYME, FIFE I was on the train when the man was shot. I was so scared.
I thought the police were shooting everyone. The man who was shot had been running for his life - he was screaming too.
CHRIS WELLS There were at least 20 of them (officers) and they were carrying big black guns.
The next thing I saw was this guy jump over the barriers and the police officers were chasing after him and everyone was just shouting "Get out, get out".
CHRIS MARTIN I was waiting on the platform at Stockwell station when several men burst on to the platform about 20 yards from him (the suspect).
There was obviously some sort of altercation going on, and then they came flying on to the platform and these guys just threw this man into the open doors of the train.
Then I heard shots.
It sounded like a silencer gun going off, and then there was blind panic, with people shouting and screaming and just running away.
I didn't actually see the gun, but I heard this "bang, bang, bang".
When I left the station a guy called Mark who had been on the train said they had shot the man dead, no doubt about it.
JIMMY CONNOR, 32, AT WARREN STREET.
He left his bag on the train at Warren Street Tube as passengers struggled to leave the carriage. Mr Connor said they could smell burning, like wiring or a fuse box.
"I thought I was going to die," he added.
CHRISTINA SAMPSON, WARREN STREET Ms Sampson was on board the Victoria Line train at Warren Street.
She said: " In our carriage suddenly we smelt something like burning rubber and then someone pulled the emergency alarm.
"The sirens were going and the Tube pulled in at the station.
"The Tube driver then made an announcement, but we couldn't quite understand. Some people rushed off the Tube at Warren Street and were kind of screaming and panicking." HUGO PALIT, WARREN STREET "I heard noises, like shouting and screaming, and suddenly I saw a guy coming out and people chasing him.
"He came out from the station, he was running and he was a little bit confused, looking right and left. I couldn't really catch him because I was carrying two heavy bags." UNNAMED WITNESS AT OVAL "I was just in a carriage when there was a big bang. It sounded like a balloon had popped but a lot louder, and then we all moved to one end of the carriage.
"There was something on the floor, you could see something had exploded.
"They opened the door so we could move through into the next carriage and there was a guy just standing in the carriage.
"We pulled into Oval and we all got off on to the platform. The guy just ran and started running up the escalator everyone was screaming to stop him. " CINDY BUTTS, SHEPHERD'S BUSH Cindy Butts, Deputy Chair of the Metropolitan Police Authority, was on a bus at Shepherd's Bush.
"We were all told to get off the bus, the road was cordoned off to the junction of Uxbridge Road and also Goldhawk Road.
"There were lots of police officers around, lots of sniffer dogs.
"People from London Transport and, of course, lots of members of the public were not quite certain what they were meant to be doing and in a state of slight confusion.
"It was pretty worrying really because obviously we're close to the BBC where we have had incidents in the past. There was no one on a loudspeaker informing people of what was going on so they could be a bit more calm and a bit more understanding."

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Well a lot of those accounts are just plain wrong.

 

[tarannau]

You'd think it'd not be beyond the police to maintain an adequate CCTV system in a place like Brixton's police station though, wouldn't you? Jeeper, even I managed to check and maintain tapes in numerous pubs, maintain a decent service. There's a point when incompetence becomes unacceptable too.

Endless experience of similarly suspicious blank spots and tapes persists through cases like this condition me to fear the worst.. In other cases even camera phones belonging to urbanites have had been confiscated and wiped.

 

[agricola]

You'd think it'd not be beyond the police to maintain an adequate CCTV system in a place like Brixton's police station though, wouldn't you? Jeeper, even I managed to check and maintain tapes in numerous pubs, maintain a decent service. There's a point when incompetence becomes unacceptable too.

Endless experience of similarly suspicious blank spots and tapes persists through cases like this condition me to fear the worst.. In other cases even camera phones belonging to urbanites have had been confiscated and wiped.

That is somewhat misleading tbh - for a start, there are (usually) separate systems for custody and the rest of the station. The custody system is treated evidentially - the individual tapes sealed, given a unique number, entered into an evidence book and retained, and from what the Guardian article does (and does not) say it seems as if they have the full tape from custody which shows Rigg for long enough, and in enough detail, for the family to state what they have stated.

The system that covers the rest of the station may (I have no idea what they do at Brixton or what system it is) be treated in the same way, though this can vary from station to station (largely because of system differences).

Secondly, I am unaware of any recent case of a death in police custody where the custody cctv has been "lost" or was "broken", there are not "endless" examples of that happening.

 

[Wilson]

maybe the camera was genuinely broken since may, maybe they found this to be more advantageous than not

i read the guardian article btw and didnt think it misleading about which cameras worked seemed quite clear

 

[detective-boy]

*yawn* I'm assuming you're here defending the indefensible again db?

* yawn * I'm assuming you're drawing an absolutely solid conclusion based solely on prejudice rather than actually reading, debating and thinking about the fucking facts again, gabi?

 

[detective-boy]

this is the first appearance of that story in the press according to nexis:

And your point is?

Does nexis include transcripts of all 24 hour rolling news programmes?

 

[Pickman's model]

And your point is?

Does nexis include transcripts of all 24 hour rolling news programmes?

bad day at the bookies?

 

[detective-boy]

You'd think it'd not be beyond the police to maintain an adequate CCTV system in a place like Brixton's police station though, wouldn't you?

They should. But they don't. That incompetence is something which needs to be factored in to judging whether or not there has been any conspiracy. And even if they did, what would you expect them to do if a camera went down? Close the station?

 

[detective-boy]

bad day at the bookies?

Answer the fucking question or fuck off.

 

[Pickman's model]

Answer the fucking question or fuck off.

not if you're going to take that shitty attitude.

 

[likesfish]

Hostel staff are not highly trained mental health experts .
"your not felling very well how about sitting down and having a cup of tea and a chat" While another member of staff franticly phones for help.
that usually ends up being the police.
Getting somebody sectioned is a farcical situation getting mad person doctor social worker and ambulance in the same place hoping said mad person can't keep it together in front of the experts . Fact he's being losing it big time in the last few days putting himself at risk from getting twated by another resident etc

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I was often called out as an appropriate adult because Mental Heal social workers were unavailable. The FME at Brixton was pretty good. I wasn't trained to help people with mental health issues. I always attended with ciggies, chocolate bars and a friendly and calm manner which worked every time.

The vast majority of Custody Sergeants I came across (bar one, who was a nasty bloke with a shitty attitude to the entire world, including his colleagues) were good, compassionate people. I was involved in Lay Visiting/ Appropriate Adulting for nearly seven years on a regular basis up to 3 times a week so I did get to know the Custody Suite staff (civilian and otherwise) pretty well.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I think the major problem with the police now is too many inadequately trained young coppers. It used to be that a probationer went out with an experienced officer. Since the massive recruitment drive there are probationers going out with young inexperienced officers. Also the quality of those getting through has dropped. I think standards generally have dropped a lot over the last few years in Brixton and there had been a vast improvement from before. All that ground gained has gone down the drain.

 

[shave]

even if he was going berserk it should be possible for four officers to restrain him safely. People go berserk when being arrested whether they're sane or not.

??? - I've seen a bloke go 'berserk' before, and I wouldn't want to be one of four people trying to keep him under control. No way. This ain't hollywood, bud. You no making no sense...

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I did once have to accompany someone who went berserk in Brixton Nick to hospital. He had been arrested for assault on a random member of the public. It took about four officers to get him into a cell. He then started beating his head against the wicket (the little sliding window in the cell door) which I witnessed so no 'yeah, right ' comments please. He gave himself quite serious lacerations and it took eight officers to get him to hospital for stitches x-ray etc.

I was asked to go too, I think mainly as an independent witness and to safeguard his interests (which is the basic role of an Appropriate Adult). It was really alarming and he wasn't even a particularly big guy either. Every single officer was needed to restrain him. Once he got to KCH he was sedated as there was no way his injuries could be dealt with otherwise. I followed up what happened and he ended up being sectioned. He had a history of psychosis.

 

[agricola]

??? - I've seen a bloke go 'berserk' before, and I wouldn't want to be one of four people trying to keep him under control. No way. This ain't hollywood, bud. You no making no sense...

You can restrain someone with four people, but you usually end up doing more damage to that person than if you do it with, say, eight people.

I think the major problem with the police now is too many inadequately trained young coppers. It used to be that a probationer went out with an experienced officer. Since the massive recruitment drive there are probationers going out with young inexperienced officers. Also the quality of those getting through has dropped. I think standards generally have dropped a lot over the last few years in Brixton and there had been a vast improvement from before. All that ground gained has gone down the drain.

One wonders what the actual effect of changing the initial training programme at Hendon from an 18 week residential course to the non-residential mix of Hendon and locally based IPLDP training has been, in light of the above post.

 

[Wilson]

They should. But they don't. That incompetence is something which needs to be factored in to judging whether or not there has been any conspiracy. And even if they did, what would you expect them to do if a camera went down? Close the station?

maybe getting it fixed in a bit less than four months would be an idea.

 

[detective-boy]

maybe getting it fixed in a bit less than four months would be an idea.

Who says it was out of order for 4 months?

But even an immediate call out, or even an on-site engineer, wouldn't mean that there would be gaps ... and sods law states quite categorically that the bit that is important is on the camera that isn't working properly right in the middle of the period is isn't working (this is an absolutely immutable law!)

 

[Wilson]

Oh!, Sorry you're right I was over exaggerating.

Convinced there were more outdoor cameras nearby, Rigg's family demanded an audit of security cameras at the station. IPCC investigators then conceded there were more cameras overlooking the cage. But two weeks later, they said they had tried to obtain the tapes and found the recorders had not been working for three months.

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