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Could public utilities be renationalised?

Crispy said:
The thing is, they return a good service on the routes which are profitable. This leaves people stuck on the branch lines or 'unpopular' routes with a disproportionally worse service. Not to mention the mismatches between fare structures, timetables etc. between operators.

IMO, if you're going to keep public transport in private hands, then a model like TFL is ideal. A central organisation sets pricing, timetables, routes, planning etc. and the various parts of the work are divvied up between private operators who can win or lose the right to operate various parts depending on how they do. When you get a bus in London it doesn't matter if it's Arriva, First or any of the other operators. The price is the same, the ticketing system is the same and as a result the buses are easy to use.
PPP on the Tube is shaping up to be a disaster. The track infastructure and rolling stock desperately need replacing yet the priority is building shiney new stations. Breaking different parts of the same infastructure up amongst different companies is madness.

Robert Kiley's bond scheme would have been far more sensible. Especially when you consider that the original private financing of the Underground was by and large a fiasco.

I agree private business can close necessary utilities that could be justified under a cost-benefit analysis. In some, limited cases, that could justify nationalisation. But it's worth remembering that local branch lines were slashed not by private companies but by the government as a consequence of the Beeching Report in the 1960s.
 
A simple question that's easily answered then.

I am claiming that putting businesses in charge of public services will always tend to deliver inferior service, because they're optimising for maximum return on investment rather than for serving the public interest.

In the specific case of rail services, I think that this means they will tend to, and in practice currently do, deliver an unacceptably shitty service.

That doesn't mean that you can't do the sort of thing that Crispy is talking about above to mitigate the inherently anti-social tendencies (e.g. neglecting unprofitable routes in favour of profitable ones, or failing to provide enough rolling stock for passengers to travel in comfort rather than being jammed in like sardines) associated with seeking to make money rather than serve the public, but in general, I think that all other things being equal, you'll get a better service if you optimise for better service rather than higher profits.

Now, you've fairly clearly been dying to talk about some lessons that you think can be learned from the pre-war organisation of the railways. I have no specific view on this, but seeing as you've apparently decided that you didn't really want a fight after all, I am quite happy to return to polite discussion and would be interested to hear you expound on this subject if you feel the urge.

On the other hand, if you still do want a fight, please feel free to continue with the snotty undergraduate stuff.
 
I guess the counterpoint to your argument bernie, is that in some cases, government has shown not to be very good at "optimising for better service." But what the causes of that are, is another topic of discussion :)
 
Crispy said:
I guess the counterpoint to your argument bernie, is that in some cases, government has shown not to be very good at "optimising for better service." But what the causes of that are, is another topic of discussion :)
Well, it's a reasonable discussion to have. I guess what I'm thinking is that you have a slightly better chance of successfully providing a decent public service if that's what you're optimising for, rather than profit.

Businesses often fail to make a profit, and public services often fail to serve the public, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an inbuilt advantage in actually starting out with the right goals.

ETA in the specific case of rail travel, I spend most of my working life travelling around the country by train, and I've been doing so since I was a snot-nosed little undergraduate back in the 70's, so I have no doubt at all that the service has become progressively worse. If the old BR cost more money, and I'm not totally sure that it did, given the amount of corporate welfare that's involved with privatisation (although I doubt we could easily unravel that question given the effort put into obfuscation of the public accounts regarding that stuff), I still think it was a public good worth paying for.

With our current knowledge of the effects of carbon emissions on the biosphere, I think the case is much stronger for effective public transport being a public good well worth paying more for, if indeed that is what it takes. I'm appalled by the crap state of our public transport when public investment is still going into roads.
 
I was thinking of the example of government IT projects. There really must be something inherent in that line of work that makes the private sector so much better at it :confused::)
 
Bernie Gunther said:
A simple question that's easily answered then.

I am claiming that putting businesses in charge of public services will always tend to deliver inferior service, because they're optimising for maximum return on investment rather than for serving the public interest.

In the specific case of rail services, I think that this means they will tend to, and in practice currently do, deliver an unacceptably shitty service.

That doesn't mean that you can't do the sort of thing that Crispy is talking about above to mitigate the inherently anti-social tendencies (e.g. neglecting unprofitable routes in favour of profitable ones, or failing to provide enough rolling stock for passengers to travel in comfort rather than being jammed in like sardines) associated with seeking to make money rather than serve the public, but in general, I think that all other things being equal, you'll get a better service if you optimise for better service rather than higher profits.

Now, you've fairly clearly been dying to talk about some lessons that you think can be learned from the pre-war organisation of the railways. I have no specific view on this, but seeing as you've apparently decided that you didn't really want a fight after all, I am quite happy to return to polite discussion and would be interested to hear you expound on this subject if you feel the urge.

On the other hand, if you still do want a fight, please feel free to continue with the snotty undergraduate stuff.
What, like calling me a trainspotter for referencing a successful business model and accusing me of pushing "free market dogma" after I said the Tube should be nationalised?

But enough, if you want to get back to discussing the topic at hand that's fine by me. Profit and the public interest are not always mutually exclusive. In some cases, like the Tube, they probably are; and a more sophisticated cost-benefit analysis should take over. But in many cases they combine. Provided the utility in question lends itself to competition and has the potential to raise a healthy profit why not let private business run it?

Presumably you oppose private monopolies, as do I; so why support them if it happens to be the government running things? In effect that creates a giant corporation.
 
Azrael said:
What, like calling me a trainspotter for referencing a successful business model and accusing me of pushing "free market dogma" after I said the Tube should be nationalised?

But enough, if you want to get back to discussing the topic at hand that's fine by me. Profit and the public interest are not always mutually exclusive. In some cases, like the Tube, they probably are; and a more sophisticated cost-benefit analysis should take over. But in many cases they combine. Provided the utility in question lends itself to competition and has the potential to raise a healthy profit why not let private business run it?

Presumably you oppose private monopolies, as do I; so why support them if it happens to be the government running things? In effect that creates a giant corporation.
One problem with cost-benefit analysis and all the other regulatory infrastructure created by trying to rein in the anti-social tendencies of business, when it's being asked to deliver public services, is that consultants are *really* expensive, compared to normal workers. This is part of what I was on about with all that stuff about corporate welfare. Take health care for example, here's the testimony of the relevant Prof at Harvard to the Canadian Government explaining why private health care is less cost-effective then public health care.
Before you make your final recommendations, I earnestly and respectfully beseech you to look more closely at the U.S. experience. It should convince any evidence-driven observer that private markets are unable do the job. They make health care more expensive and worse. <snip>

You make the valid point that, from the point of view of profit making, many elements of the American and the Canadian health care systems are for-profit, that is to say, there has to be profit defined as excess of income over expense. Otherwise it could only function with tax revenues or with charity. A profit is necessary. It is not for-profit that concerns me; it is investor-owned that goes along with the for-profit. If you have a professional who makes his or her livelihood from providing professional services to patients and has to take home a net surplus, a profit, or else they cannot continue to exist, I find that much less concerning than if the professional services or the facilities are owned by an anonymous corporation that talks to Wall Street and Wall Street analysts and is interested only in profits and in share prices. That is the problem. It is not for-profit versus not-for-profit that I am concerned with; it is investor ownership.

You asked if I would favour elimination of all for-profit facilities and health care businesses. Yes, over the long run. I am an evidence-driven person. I have lived my whole career asking: What is the evidence? Where are the data? Where are the facts? What are the facts? The facts are that no one has ever shown, in fair, accurate comparisons, that for- profit makes for greater efficiency or better quality, and certainly have never shown that it serves the public interest any better. Never. As far as I can see, the only advantage of for-profit over not-for-profit is that they provide capital, which they get from investors. They provide the capital that often the not-for-profit system does not have or is unwilling to provide.

However, in order to justify providing that capital, they have to extract from the system not only the costs of their amortization but their profits. Otherwise, they cannot do it. Why would they provide capital if, on balance, they did not take more out of the system than they put in?

In the beginning a community or a hospital that is starved for money will welcome the for-profits coming in. A hospital corporation is able to build a new hospital that the community is unable to afford. However, you the community will pay for that in the long run because the corporation is not in the business of running a charity. They are in it to make a profit, and they will take the profit out of the community. Ultimately they will take more out of the community than they put in. They have to take out more than they put in order to make a profit.
source.
 
It not only could be done, it should be done. All public utilities should be run by the state because companies can only interested in making profits for shareholders, and shareholders are only interested in seeing how much they can screw out of everyone else for themselves. Every utility should be taken back into government ownership, with no compensation. Fuck compensating the rich and greedy - they've already had enough out of people who can ill afford to pay. Gas prices went up by nearly 100% this year yet the gas companies make enormous profits. Well, fuck em, they can stop making them at the expense of the old and poor. Personally I'd line all shareholders up - rich and poor - and shoot the lot of them. Fucking parasites.

The larger problem is that we live in a society where people expect to pay as little as possible for public services and thus want to pay little or no tax. A public sector can't be maintained without a tax base and with the pitiful income tax rate we pay now, it's no wonder the NHS, road infrastructure and so on cannot be maintained. If people want to live in a reasonable environment, they have to be prepared to pay for it. Thatcher taught everyone how to be greedy and self-obsessed - and no government since has had the balls to say that's wrong. Was it Dennis Healey (Chancellor under Harold Wilson) who said he'd squeeze the rich until until their pips squeaked or something like that? I'd make the fuckers squeak alright.

Vive la revolution. Etc.

Phew. I feel a lot better now... :)
 
soulman said:
Water, gas, electric, telephones, trains, busses (feel free to add any others)?

Would it any longer be feasible to renationalise, bring back into state control, the former public utilities?

If so how?

To start off with it is absolutely necessary to take back the monopolies.
Water
Trains
Gas
You have no choice about what train company you take as one train station cannot have multiple lines offering the services of different companies, so there's not the pressure of choice that will pressure the companies.
Water could and maybe should be run by the local community with subsidies from a larger assembly/s to more needy communities.

Electric, telephones and busses are less important to nationalise and may even be detrimental e.g. in the case of telephones as we all use them differently and choose different companies based on that. Having a one-size-fits-all will not benefit us.

I would rant on but I won't bore you.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
One problem with cost-benefit analysis and all the other regulatory infrastructure created by trying to rein in the anti-social tendencies of business, when it's being asked to deliver public services, is that consultants are *really* expensive, compared to normal workers.
I quite agree; that's why I'd support nationalising unprofitable utilities, instead of trying to harness private business for a completely unsuitable end.
This is part of what I was on about with all that stuff about corporate welfare. Take health care for example, here's the testimony of the relevant Prof at Harvard to the Canadian Government explaining why private health care is less cost-effective then public health care. source.
As I said a page back, I could go either way on healthcare. I'd prefer a model of private insurance, but if an economic model can be found that can deliver socialised medecine without the NHS being constantly in defecit, and it's more economical than private insurance, I'd support it.

Since I believe strongly in healthcare free at the point of delivery it's a matter of details.
 
I think there are some very convincing arguments for a far more decentralised model in terms of stuff like water and sewage treatment. If you're trying to maximise sustainability, which I'd argue that we should be, then you want to maximise ecological closure in your waste and food systems. All that piss and shit is really valuable stuff used in agriculture, if treated properly, but you can't get that degree of closure on the sort of scale that we're currently working on. You have to pretty much build your community around that horticulture, which means you have to rearrange our patterns of habitation to suit sustainability. The rewards are significant though, potentially say 40% less food energy use per family with that approach.

The maximum efficiency looks like it occurs on a scale of about 500 people's waste water and biological waste going to horticulture that provides most of their food. While this might be economically advantagous to small farmers, it's totally inconvenient for e.g. property developers because they have other uses for urban space that are more profitable than sustainable ways of living.

One look at the Stern Review tells you that this kind of thing isn't even under consideration, because our governments serve business, not humans.
 
DrRingDing said:
To start off with it is absolutely necessary to take back the monopolies.
Water
Trains
Gas
You have no choice about what train company you take as one train station cannot have multiple lines offering the services of different companies, so there's not the pressure of choice that will pressure the companies.
A good point, all are natural monopolies. However private business can have a place in natural monopolies.

If the government's running the monopoly you can only remedy their performance by electing another government, but since the management structure will probably remain the same, and jobs are usually secure, there's a limited amount you can do to effect change. It's also draining taxpayer's money unless it's breaking even.

However if a private company is in charge they can be replaced by a better company. The threat of bankruptcy is obviously an excellent incentive to produce improvements. And in the case of trains there is real competition in the form of busses and cars.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
One look at the Stern Review tells you that this kind of thing isn't even under consideration, because our governments serve business, not humans.
Interesting thing about those Victorian and Edwardian governments: they were really tough on business regulation. The railways and Tube were held under constant threat of nationalisation unless they produced a consistently good service. Parliament even had a nationalisation clause written into the Metropolitan Line's capital contracts in the 1860s.

Unfortunately the Thatcherite consensus has mistaken supporting business for being a slave to business.
 
Azrael said:
Nonsense. The pre-war companies constantly pushed technical innovation and passenger comfort because improved services generated better returns. Even a cursory glance at railway history tells you that. When the railways became a faceless monopoly, free of the pressure of competition, the services declined. When the Major government made a bollocks of privatisation they declined still further.

I don't think it's fair to blame the decline of the railways on nationalisation, or indeed on privatisation. Growing competition from other means of transport - which BR arguably responded to more effectively than its predecessors - has been the main reason for loss of traffic. Meanwhile, despite rocketing fares and the manifest inefficiency of the privatised railway, rail usage is rising again, mainly because of a) the reasonable success of the economy, b) rising petrol prices and c) congestion on the roads. Obviously the efficiency of the rail industry itself is crucial, but in analysing the success or otherwise of the railways, external factors affecting traffic levels are always important, and have to be taken into account.

Meanwhile, a bit of historical context:

It's very easy to romanticise the 'Big Four,' but their record wasn't really that good. None of them made much money (the LNER, in particular, was always strapped for cash), and with the exception of the Southern's electrification programme they weren't especially innovative either. The GWR, in particular, was pretty damn old-fashioned by the late 1930s. Nor was there much in the way of rationalisation of services or reform of operational practices. One might suggest that much of this is because, with the exception of a few competing lines, the Big Four were all regional monopolies, although the unfavourable economic climate didn't help at all. IMO the publicity departments of the Big Four, and the prestige trains they promoted, did a very good job of giving the railways a modern and successful image they didn't fully deserve.

Meanwhile, British Rail's record is a lot more mixed than its detractors like to claim. Some horrendous fuck-ups were made in the 1950s and 1960s(persisting with steam traction too long, the modernisation plan, Beeching) but by the 1980s BR was a pretty efficient organisation, running a modern rail service on a shoestring. Okay, so the railways looked a bit dilapidated in places, but the fact that BR could only invest about a third as much per train-mile as its continental counterparts accounts for that. The punctuality and reliability figures were generally better than they are now.

BR in the early 90s was covering fully 75% of its costs out of fares, and needed a subsidy of about £1-1.5bn (at 2005 prices). Nowadays, the privatised railway only covers about 40% of its costs from fares, despite fare rises much greater than BR was ever able to get away with, and the subsidy is somewhere near £5bn. The privatised structure is, quite simply, inefficient. It has to spend several times what BR had to spend to get the same result.

IMO what matters far more than who owns the railways is how they are organised. The early rail companies were vertically-integrated concerns for a good reason: it was felt that they needed a clear hierarchy and chain of command - which, if you think about it, is only common sense in an industry as complex and as safety-critical as the railways. That vertically integrated structure was continued after the grouping and consolidated under BR. It is IMO a great shame that BR's own mismanagement and hamfisted interference from government in the 1950s and 60s prevented some of the potential gains from nationalisation - economies of scale, standardisation, better co-ordination across regions - of being realised. However, BR was not a static entity (despite what some would say) and by its later years it had evolved into an effective organisation for running a railway on a tight budget. Frankly, the saddest thing about the whole privatisation fiasco is the billions of pounds thrown at it: one wonders what BR could have achieved with that money if they'd been allowed to try.

This article by Simon Jenkins (himself a former BR manager) is worth a read.
 
Massively exhorbitant rail fares are beginning to create economic apartheid, imo, and the gas prices are causing misery for millions. Public ownership of these and water and electricity are necessary, right and should be done.
 
It's also probably worth mentioning that the original private investment into the railways was a bit of an historical freak occurrence, at least according to what I can recall reading from 'Age of Revolution', 'Industry and Empire' etc. by Eric Hobsbawm.

The Victorian middle classes were, according to his analysis, awash with capital that they didn't know what to do with, due to Britain's unique role in the industrial revolution and the spoils of Empire and the railways became a very fashionable investment.
 
utilties in gov hands often means you can forget about investment brighton sewers are slowly being replaced southern waters putting up bills to replace stuff thats 100 years old should'nt some of this have been done when they were nice friendly nationisled companys?:(
railways are in a stupid way selling trains to someone and track to someone else was stupid stupid :(
 
treelover said:
Roadkill, are you a transport policy wonk? certainly know your stuff!

No, I'm a historian, and transport history is a particular interest of mine.

Oh, and I'm a railway anorak too. :oops: :D
 
Bernie Gunther said:
It's also probably worth mentioning that the original private investment into the railways was a bit of an historical freak occurrence, at least according to what I can recall reading from 'Age of Revolution', 'Industry and Empire' etc. by Eric Hobsbawm.

The Victorian middle classes were, according to his analysis, awash with capital that they didn't know what to do with, due to Britain's unique role in the industrial revolution and the spoils of Empire and the railways became a very fashionable investment.

It's a long time since I've read Indusrty and Empire, but I don't find that analysis convincing. It is true that Britain as a whole was not short of investment capital in the mid-nineteenth century, and that railways (like canals before them) became a fashionable investment. But investors usually tend to jump on a bandwagon once it's rolling, so in that respect I don't think railway investment can be counted as much more 'fashionable' than any other.

Besides, the early railway schemes - well before railways became widespread or popular - yielded good returns. It's not surprising that a lot of people were willing to put their money into them. Nor is it entirely out of character that the bubble eventually burst. I've seen the nineteenth-century railways likened to the internet, and it's an interesting comparison: the railways then were as new, as challenging to politicians and planners, and as difficult to regulate as the internet is now - and the 'railway mania' of the 1840s bears not a few similarities to the dotcom bubble!
 
soulman said:
Water, gas, electric, telephones, trains, busses (feel free to add any others)?

Would it any longer be feasible to renationalise, bring back into state control, the former public utilities?

If so how?

If not how would you like to see them organised and controlled?

Almost impossible without EU permission, since it has control of the Single Market and all decisions relating to it. No government we are likely to elect has the stomach, or even the will, for that kind of fight.

I'd definitely like to see water, gas and electricity brought back under public control.
 
Roadkill said:
It's a long time since I've read Indusrty and Empire, but I don't find that analysis convincing. It is true that Britain as a whole was not short of investment capital in the mid-nineteenth century, and that railways (like canals before them) became a fashionable investment. But investors usually tend to jump on a bandwagon once it's rolling, so in that respect I don't think railway investment can be counted as much more 'fashionable' than any other.

Besides, the early railway schemes - well before railways became widespread or popular - yielded good returns. It's not surprising that a lot of people were willing to put their money into them. Nor is it entirely out of character that the bubble eventually burst. I've seen the nineteenth-century railways likened to the internet, and it's an interesting comparison: the railways then were as new, as challenging to politicians and planners, and as difficult to regulate as the internet is now - and the 'railway mania' of the 1840s bears not a few similarities to the dotcom bubble!
I may be misremembering a bit. It's a while since I read them too.

I guess what would be interesting would be to understand to what extent if any the pre-war 'Big 4' companies were able to benefit, in terms of keeping infrastructure costs lower than they might otherwise have been, from investment frenzies (I seem to recall there were two) in the previous century.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
I guess what would be interesting would be to understand to what extent if any the pre-war 'Big 4' companies were able to benefit, in terms of keeping infrastructure costs lower than they might otherwise have been, from investment frenzies (I seem to recall there were two) in the previous century.

You mean, in the sense of the Big Four being freed from the necessity of undertaking major capital projects of their own thanks to the investment booms of the nineteenth century?
 
Roadkill said:
You mean, in the sense of the Big Four being freed from the necessity of undertaking major capital projects of their own thanks to the investment booms of the nineteenth century?
Yes, that kind of thing. I've no idea if that was the case, but it seems possible given the little I know about the subject that e.g. major engineering works like cuttings, tunnels and viaducts were already largely accomplished.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Yes, that kind of thing. I've no idea if that was the case, but it seems possible given the little I know about the subject that e.g. major engineering works like cuttings, tunnels and viaducts were already largely accomplished.

It's a good question.

Certainly, there was little or no new line-building between the wars so in that sense previous investment booms were of benefit to them. But on the other hand, the railway network was really too large at the time with too many lines that were either partial duplicates of others or just didn't have customer base enough to make money. So one could argue that, aside from benefiting from previous investment, the Big Four were saddled with a legacy of overinvestment in infrastructure, much of which was uneconomic.

Given how strapped for cash the Big Four all were - especially the London and North Eastern Railway - I think it's probably safe to say that building whole new lines, even if there'd been a need for them, would have been beyond them. However, they did manage some fairly major infrastructure projects, such as electrification in the south-east (by the Southern Railway) and important upgrades to key routes.

Moreover, what the railways really need is a steady, ongoing flow of investment in the humdrum job of maintaining track and signalling (a problem that BR, tied into annualised Treasury budgeting, always struggled with). That was as much the case between the wars as at any other time. Plus, major investment was required in updating rolling stock and the like.

It's complex. I suppose in one sense it is fair to say that the Big Four benefited from the legacy the pre-grouping companies left them, but in some ways it was something of a burden. I do think it's fair to say that in some respects they failed to respond adequately to the changed climate of the interwar years, and that they perhaps don't deserve some of the romanticisation they receive. They'd have needed major government help to survive in the post-war years anyway. How that affects the debate on the rights and wrongs of nationalisation and then privatisation is perhaps another matter...
 
Roadkill said:
Meanwhile, a bit of historical context:

It's very easy to romanticise the 'Big Four,' but their record wasn't really that good. None of them made much money (the LNER, in particular, was always strapped for cash), and with the exception of the Southern's electrification programme they weren't especially innovative either. The GWR, in particular, was pretty damn old-fashioned by the late 1930s. Nor was there much in the way of rationalisation of services or reform of operational practices. One might suggest that much of this is because, with the exception of a few competing lines, the Big Four were all regional monopolies, although the unfavourable economic climate didn't help at all. IMO the publicity departments of the Big Four, and the prestige trains they promoted, did a very good job of giving the railways a modern and successful image they didn't fully deserve.

Meanwhile, British Rail's record is a lot more mixed than its detractors like to claim. Some horrendous fuck-ups were made in the 1950s and 1960s(persisting with steam traction too long, the modernisation plan, Beeching) but by the 1980s BR was a pretty efficient organisation, running a modern rail service on a shoestring. Okay, so the railways looked a bit dilapidated in places, but the fact that BR could only invest about a third as much per train-mile as its continental counterparts accounts for that. The punctuality and reliability figures were generally better than they are now.

BR in the early 90s was covering fully 75% of its costs out of fares, and needed a subsidy of about £1-1.5bn (at 2005 prices). Nowadays, the privatised railway only covers about 40% of its costs from fares, despite fare rises much greater than BR was ever able to get away with, and the subsidy is somewhere near £5bn. The privatised structure is, quite simply, inefficient. It has to spend several times what BR had to spend to get the same result.

IMO what matters far more than who owns the railways is how they are organised. The early rail companies were vertically-integrated concerns for a good reason: it was felt that they needed a clear hierarchy and chain of command - which, if you think about it, is only common sense in an industry as complex and as safety-critical as the railways. That vertically integrated structure was continued after the grouping and consolidated under BR. It is IMO a great shame that BR's own mismanagement and hamfisted interference from government in the 1950s and 60s prevented some of the potential gains from nationalisation - economies of scale, standardisation, better co-ordination across regions - of being realised. However, BR was not a static entity (despite what some would say) and by its later years it had evolved into an effective organisation for running a railway on a tight budget. Frankly, the saddest thing about the whole privatisation fiasco is the billions of pounds thrown at it: one wonders what BR could have achieved with that money if they'd been allowed to try.
I agree with your last point: I'd far, far rather the money thrown at Virgin et al had gone to BR (who, as you say, were a damn sight more efficient than the current Wild West setup).

I think you're being a bit hard on Big Four though. Yes, they have been wildly romanticised, but they did a good job in difficult circumstances, especially when you compare them to the Tube speculation fiasco. (Type "Whitaker Wright" into wikipedia to see just how crazy this got. :eek: ) GWR returned a healthy profit throughout the Depression, no mean achievement, and although it might not have electrified it constantly pushed development of steam and diesel locomotives. Electric traction was still a relatively new technology, and rolling it out across the GWR tracks would have been a major project foolishly undertaken in the economic climate. I'd argue they took the most sensible route (forgive the pun) with the resources they had.

It's also worth noting that Lloyd George's coalition government forced the rail companies to merge into the Big Four as a compromise with the pro-nationalisation lobby.

Ultimately I agree that it's not a matter for dogma. I support a nationalised London Underground and I'd support a nationalised rail system if that were the best model. I just think privatisation has an unfair reputation thanks to the utterly inept set-up the Major government forced on the industry. (Rushing it through before Labour got into power: not that they need have bothered. :rolleyes: )
 
Surely to have a market there needs to be competition. In the case of the railways and the buses, there is none, just local monopolies, so the whole incentive for the companies to drive down fares or improve service is missing. The only competition is with other forms of transport.
 
Azrael said:
I agree with your last point: I'd far, far rather the money thrown at Virgin et al had gone to BR (who, as you say, were a damn sight more efficient than the current Wild West setup).

I think you're being a bit hard on Big Four though. Yes, they have been wildly romanticised, but they did a good job in difficult circumstances, especially when you compare them to the Tube speculation fiasco. (Type "Whitaker Wright" into wikipedia to see just how crazy this got. :eek: ) GWR returned a healthy profit throughout the Depression, no mean achievement, and although it might not have electrified it constantly pushed development of steam and diesel locomotives. Electric traction was still a relatively new technology, and rolling it out across the GWR tracks would have been a major project foolishly undertaken in the economic climate. I'd argue they took the most sensible route (forgive the pun) with the resources they had.

It's also worth noting that Lloyd George's coalition government forced the rail companies to merge into the Big Four as a compromise with the pro-nationalisation lobby.

Ultimately I agree that it's not a matter for dogma. I support a nationalised London Underground and I'd support a nationalised rail system if that were the best model. I just think privatisation has an unfair reputation thanks to the utterly inept set-up the Major government forced on the industry. (Rushing it through before Labour got into power: not that they need have bothered. :rolleyes: )


The nationalisation lobby wasn’t really that strong at the time of the grouping. The idea of nationalisation was about (and had been since the 1840s, in fact), but it had little real support apart from the Labour Party and the trade unions, neither of whom were in a position in the early 20s to do much about it. Grouping was far more a product of the success of the organisation of the railways during World War One, when they were placed under the direction of a committee operating on behalf of government. Before this, competition had been encouraged as far as possible and a monopoly was thought to be undesirable: the unification of the railways in wartime demonstrated that the benefits of greater co-ordination outweighed the disadvantages. Grouping, therefore, was an attempt to maintain these benefits without nationalisation.

I don’t think the Big Four’s achievements were negligible, by any means. The railways were certainly a lot better by the outbreak of World War II than they were at the grouping in 1923. As you say, they had a difficult economic climate to contend with, and it’s fair to say that government interference in the form of the ‘common carrier’ obligation limited their commercial freedom and advantaged their competition.

I do think they failed to respond adequately to the changed climate between the wars. In the first instance, the railway network was by then too large, with several duplicate routes. There was little move towards rationalisation of these, mainly because such duplicates were owned by different companies (the largest example being the LNER’s Great Central and LMS’s Midland main lines, but most were smaller) who were mutually reluctant to close one of them and relinquish traffic to their opponents. Consequently, both lines continued to exist, neither making much money and both offering a poor service. I think that fault is probably inherent in any railway system where regional monopolies coincide with one another at their boundaries. Even where competition with another company was not a factor, many rural lines continued running though the traffic they once catered for had long since vanished and they would never make money. It was only under BR that rationalisation began – and then too slowly and too late. Beeching went much too far, but had operating economies been made and certain lines closed previously, the railways might not have been in the financial mess they were in when he came along.

Although you’re right that the GWR continued to make a profit, as did the other companies, the price of this was underinvestment in track and rolling stock. The only exception to this was the LNER, which did maintain a fairly healthy investment programme, but at the price of paying no dividends in the late 1930s! The railways were solvent, but their financial position was never good. In any case, by 1945 the situation was very different and whatever happened they were going to need a subsidy (over and above what the government owed them for wartime usage).

You’re right that the GWR – and the other railways – continued turning out rolling stock throughout the interwar period, and I didn’t really mean to suggest that full electrification was possible in the interwar period. However, I think the Big Four were slow to start using diesels. Granted, they performed no better than contemporary steam engines on long-distance trains, but at the other end of the scale they were much cheaper and more effective for shunting duties. This was well known in the 30s, but there were only a handful of diesels in existence by 1939 – and right up until nationalisation the GWR were building large batches of steam shunting locomotives.

I’m not, therefore, convinced that the Big Four were as good as they’re sometimes portrayed. However, I do wonder what would have happened in the post-war period if nationalisation had somehow not happened. Many of the problems facing the railways in the 30s were intensified, such as the growing competition from road traffic, and there were some new problems, such as the rising price of coal and growing scarcity of labour that put steam traction at a decisive disadvantage compared to diesel or electric power. BR’s early record at coping with these difficulties was not good, and plenty of people have suggested that the Big Four would have done better. That’s quite possible IMO. However, I don’t think British Rail’s record in its later years is nearly as bad, given its financial problems, and there was no real need or justification for privatisation.

Privatisation along regional lines, with vertically integrated firms operating a monopoly in a particular area might have worked better than the current set-up, but I’m sceptical about whether it would have been better than BR. In the end, the railways overall were – and are – a loss-maker. Regional companies would all still have needed a subsidy, and each would need a management hierarchy and so on of its own, where only one existed under BR. I think the taxpayer would just have ended up subsidising this duplication of roles, along with other costs caused by lack of standardisation and quite possibly a similar lack of co-ordination between firms that characterises the railways now.
 
Hurmmm...

Railways
Water

Telecomms, leccy, planes etc not at all - goverments have no business actually running these types of business (for that matter govt has no business running ANY type of enterprise), but YKWIM...

Gas...plenty of people here going on about fuel costs etc etc, but it's worth bearing in mind that prior to the Russia-induced price-shock last year, the general trend of energy prices, both gas and electricity, was downwards; what exactly would have been different with that situation if BG was nationalised or not? The government would still have had to pay international market rates for the gas...plus there are cheaper suppliers than BG (in fact some who are substantially cheaper than BG) so I don't see a compelling argument for renationalisation of any of the energy markets. I can't comment on service quality, but I'd put money on it that response times to call outs, connection appointments etc are far better than when the service was a monopoly.

Water simply on principle - I don't honestly think that the water situation would be any better in the SE and London if the water companies were still in public hands, but I just think that the water supply should be in domestic, public hands.

Trains - I'd spend a long time looking at how it works in France, Germany, Switzerland and Japan and adjust my model accordingly I guess.
 
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