'Conservatism' is neoliberalism with spikes

[Protag]

Hey all,

I find actually trying to understand what 'conversatism' is, is a little unclear.

However I did notice notice something a few years ago: modern 'conservatives' seem to be a little obsessed with the following:-

1. Taxes
2. Muslims.

But if you think about it, what is 'conservative' about these things? They are entirely consistent with neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is based on unleashing the power of corporations and the rich over the state. Samuel Huntington in 1993 produced his infamous 'clash of civilisations' thesis, and he is allegedly a 'liberal'.

There is further evidence in the fact that the old 'Cold War Warrior' was seen as a 'conservative' position.

Oh, and pretending to be a social conservative is popular too (but largely just whining rather than doing).

 

[BigMoaner]

There are so many different strands of conservative thought. Cannot quantify. Even Zizek says he is a “communist conservative.” From Tommy Robinson to G.K Chesterton. We live in a world where such nuance is part of the “real world” but not what is reflected back to us through the media, traditional or old.

 

[BigMoaner]

And agree neoliberalism should be repulsive for many on certain wings of conservative thought.

 

[RD2003]

And agree neoliberalism should be repulsive for many on certain wings of conservative thought.

Peter Hitchens and John Gray, two very different types of conservative, have been increasingly critical of the neoliberalism they once championed over the years, both stating that it is basically inimical to conservative philosophy. Gray's book 'False Dawn: The Delusions of Global Capitalism' is one of the best demolitions of the neo-liberal cult going.

 

[Protag]

Peter Hitchens and John Gray, two very different types of conservative, have been increasingly critical of the neoliberalism they once championed over the years, both stating that it is basically inimical to conservative philosophy. Gray's book 'False Dawn: The Delusions of Global Capitalism' is one of the best demolitions of the neo-liberal cult going.

I don't know much about Gray apart from whining (I read his Straw Dogs book and I cannot remember a single thing about it). Hitchens has attacked the Tories a lot, but he seems to be an outlier.

Like other philosophies there tends to be some kind of imperialism/anti-imperialism thing. People that moan about Muslims usually ally with the US crusade. Hitchens is harshly critical of foreign policy in which I have found useful.

Maybe saying just moaning about taxes and Muslims is like a fake position, a position that pretends to be conservative, but is not.

 

[BigMoaner]

Peter Hitchens and John Gray, two very different types of conservative, have been increasingly critical of the neoliberalism they once championed over the years, both stating that it is basically inimical to conservative philosophy. Gray's book 'False Dawn: The Delusions of Global Capitalism' is one of the best demolitions of the neo-liberal cult going.

“We can do anything and everything forever and ever because we are marvellous and creative” is the line of “liberal” thought that is central to our western societies today. Well, there's strains of conservative thought that says "no we can't, and it's pointless". "Consumerism will empty out your soul, focus on your family, and your local community, church, and personal values," etc. I am not convinced the later is a worse choice than the former. But the perfect neoliberal subject, with his endless "amazing" ideas, and his scruffy converses, and his largely "woke" social attitudes, uses such ideas in forever propolsion, it's why we have the wonder of the iphone and space travel, but the US still cannot solve the issue of ghettos and food banks and the rest of the mire that is everywhere. It's back to front - we have built these tools to increase productivity, with a largely isolating and atomising "social aspect" as a side. Where's the damn steve jobs of solving the american ghetto or the painkiller academic o child poverty? what's the point in facetiming someone on the otherside of the globe if children are malnourished? Look around you, there's no sense of prioritisation. I would think that's human nature, confusing, contradictory - but still surely some real sustained social problems should be largely at the top of the tree? no money in it..

What is so insideous these days is a) the way this neoliberal market acts and b) the monitisation of our own leisure and private time. We cannot now close the door on the market. It;s their in our bedrooms ("alexia, turn off the lights"), who we choose to date, served to us by the tinder alogrithym, the information that is fed to us. Children's whole childhoods spent starting at a screen whilst some billionaire in scruffy jeans makes money off of it. Capital has colonised almost entirely the human. There's is little escape now from someone somewhere making money off of the human subject. Walking in the park without your phone becomes a revolutionary act. I love what the economist JK GAlbraith wrote: "It can no longer be assumed that welfare is greater at an all-around higher level of production than a lower one...the higher level of production has, merely, a level of want creation necessitating a higher level of want satisfcation". I mean that quote could be framed as "conservative". I do actually believe that common ground can be found with many conservatives, thinking ones at least - but the mediums in which we collectivise, i.e. through the media, doesn't really allow for it. If you took 20 such conservatives and 20 radical lefties and said "build a community together from scratch" i would bet that they would actually come up with something decent and fair and just.

My favourite thinker at the moment, Byung Chul Han, although very much on the left, his work is short through with conservative thinking too.
i know i have posted this before, but this little clip of his work is brilliant on this. fundemental i would say.

 

[RD2003]

I don't know much about Gray apart from whining (I read his Straw Dogs book and I cannot remember a single thing about it). Hitchens has attacked the Tories a lot, but he seems to be an outlier.

Like other philosophies there tends to be some kind of imperialism/anti-imperialism thing. People that moan about Muslims usually ally with the US crusade. Hitchens is harshly critical of foreign policy in which I have found useful.

Maybe saying just moaning about taxes and Muslims is like a fake position, a position that pretends to be conservative, but is not.

'Straw Dogs' could be said to be a certain type of conservative philosophy at its most pessimistic: humans are a fallen species, doomed to suffer, with any broad-ranging attempts at improving our lot, however well-intentioned, inevitably leading only to more suffering. It's interesting, and sometimes exhilarating, but, whether correct or not, doomed to stay in the realms of theory. Gray, as far as I've ever been able to tell, doesn't apply these views to either his own life nor, in essence, his practical suggestions. Like Hitchens, he has often appeared to speak as an old-fashioned right-wing social democrat, at least on the economy, in recent years.

 

[BigMoaner]

'Straw Dogs' could be said to be a certain type of conservative philosophy at its most pessimistic: humans are a fallen species, doomed to suffer, with any broad-ranging attempts at improving our lot, however well-intentioned, inevitably leading only to more suffering. It's interesting, and sometimes exhilarating, but, whether correct or not, doomed to stay in the realms of theory. Gray, as far as I've ever been able to tell, doesn't apply these views to either his own life nor, in essence, his practical suggestions. Like Hitchens, he has often appeared to speak as an old-fashioned right-wing social democrat in recent years.

I love nihilism in philosophy and yes a lot of it could be framed as "conservative". Emil Coiran my favourite. But I also know it's not teh full picture. You can't really live by it. Can't get rid of desire. But on a personal level, yes, exhillerating adn can cut out so much inner bullshit.

 

[BigMoaner]

I do think somewhere along the line there's been a con, probably with the demise of religion: "positive thinking is positive."

is it?

have you tried negative thinking? see waht that does.

 

[Protag]

“We can do anything and everything forever and ever because we are marvellous and creative” is the line of “liberal” thought that is central to our western societies today. Well, there's strains of conservative thought that says "no we can't, and it's pointless". "Consumerism will empty out your soul, focus on your family, and your local community, church, and personal values," etc. I am not convinced the later is a worse choice than the former. But the perfect neoliberal subject, with his endless "amazing" ideas, and his scruffy converses, and his largely "woke" social attitudes, uses such ideas in forever propolsion, it's why we have the wonder of the iphone and space travel, but the US still cannot solve the issue of ghettos and food banks and the rest of the mire that is everywhere. It's back to front - we have built these tools to increase productivity, with a largely isolating and atomising "social aspect" as a side. Where's the damn steve jobs of solving the american ghetto or the painkiller academic o child poverty? what's the point in facetiming someone on the otherside of the globe if children are malnourished? Look around you, there's no sense of prioritisation. I would think that's human nature, confusing, contradictory - but still surely some real sustained social problems should be largely at the top of the tree? no money in it..

What is so insideous these days is a) the way this neoliberal market acts and b) the monitisation of our own leisure and private time. We cannot now close the door on the market. It;s their in our bedrooms ("alexia, turn off the lights"), who we choose to date, served to us by the tinder alogrithym, the information that is fed to us. Children's whole childhoods spent starting at a screen whilst some billionaire in scruffy jeans makes money off of it. Capital has colonised almost entirely the human. There's is little escape now from someone somewhere making money off of the human subject. Walking in the park without your phone becomes a revolutionary act. I love what the economist JK GAlbraith wrote: "It can no longer be assumed that welfare is greater at an all-around higher level of production than a lower one...the higher level of production has, merely, a level of want creation necessitating a higher level of want satisfcation". I mean that quote could be framed as "conservative". I do actually believe that common ground can be found with many conservatives, thinking ones at least - but the mediums in which we collectivise, i.e. through the media, doesn't really allow for it. If you took 20 such conservatives and 20 radical lefties and said "build a community together from scratch" i would bet that they would actually come up with something decent and fair and just.

My favourite thinker at the moment, Byung Chul Han, although very much on the left, his work is short through with conservative thinking too.
i know i have posted this before, but this little clip of his work is brilliant on this. fundemental i would say.

i am sure Foucault is the French word for headache. I could never understand what he was going on about.

I will check out John Gray again.

 

[BigMoaner]

i am sure Foucault is the French word for headache. I could never understand what he was going on about.

I will check out John Gray again.

yes, the first bit is stodgy. the second half of the video is the mike drop stuff imho and relates very much today, not to past thinkers.

 

[BigMoaner]

i def need to revist grey, wasn't impressed first time round but that was 20 odd years ago or something

 

[RD2003]

I do think somewhere along the line there's been a con, probably with the demise of religion: "positive thinking is positive."

is it?

have you tried negative thinking? see waht that does.

Negative thinking can be liberating (but only if you think liberation is actually 'a thing,' as they seem to say these days...)

 

[BigMoaner]

Negative thinking can be liberating (but only if you think liberation is actually 'a thing,' as they seem to say these days...)

100%. it's the back door escape, on a personal, pheonmenlogical level at least, that is kept hidden by neoliberalism. it's not the ultimate answer to "liberation" (what is?), but it's handy. "I can't" ends the inner story, "I can" exhausts. Neither one the "one true way".

 

[Protag]

Ahhh yes, just read a brief overview of John Gray. If whining was conservative, then he is one.

I think he is wrong on just about everything. I suppose his anti-Enlighenment view means that he is some kind of philosophical conservative, and a hysterically deterministic one.

The main problem with Straw Dogs is: the existence of ancient Greek philosophy destroys his argument.

 

[RD2003]

100%. it's the back door escape, on a personal, pheonmenlogical level at least, that is kept hidden by neoliberalism. it's not the ultimate answer to "liberation" (what is?), but it's handy. "I can't" ends the inner story, "I can" exhausts. Neither one the "one true way".

I've tried to contend for years with being probably the most pessimistic radical socialist imaginable. You can't lose really-rare successes vindicate you as much as do the long line of defeats and failures.

I was intrigued to discover that the arch-pessimist Samuel Beckett was a lifelong left socialist. I regard him as being a bit like myself, but probably less of a miserabilist. And defintely not as clever...

 

[BigMoaner]

I've tried to contend for years with being probably the most pessimistic radical socialist imaginable. You can't lose really-rare successes vindicate you as much as do the long line of defeats and failures.

I was intrigued to discover that the arch-pessimist Samuel Beckett was a lifelong left socialist. I regard him as being a bit like myself, but probably less of a miserabilist. And defintely not as clever...

you can go about 10 levels deeper with it though into metaphysics (like the dude in your pic did) and, dare i say the word, "spirituality". i mean the buddhists and hindus were thrashing this all out 2000 years ago. It's not really about being "miserable" when you get deeper. Negation is also fundemental to being a human - our limitations should be there for all to see. A lot of the hindus would negate their entire body. "it's not mine". "body and mind have dropped away" as Dogen said - i mean that's teh end of nihilism there, and paradoxically the peak of englightement (for him anyway)

 

[BigMoaner]

and don't get me onto the Logic Bros who think they are the pinacle of rationality because they have read Richard Dawkins and watched a few Hitchens lectures.

It's all very complicated. I do like Zizek's "conservative Communist" idea though, i would think that;s pretty much where i sit.

 

[RD2003]

and don't get me onto the Logic Bros who think they are the pinacle of rationality because they have read Richard Dawkins and watched a few Hitchens lectures.

It's all very complicated. I do like Zizek's "conservative Communist" idea though, i would think that;s pretty much where i sit.

You know you're in trouble when Thomas Ligotti starts to make more sense to you than Marx.

 

[BigMoaner]

You know you're in trouble when Thomas Ligotti starts to make more sense to you than Marx.

The two can run at the same time for sure though. They are not in conflict.

 

[RD2003]

Ahhh yes, just read a brief overview of John Gray. If whining was conservative, then he is one.

I think he is wrong on just about everything. I suppose his anti-Enlighenment view means that he is some kind of philosophical conservative, and a hysterically deterministic one.

The main problem with Straw Dogs is: the existence of ancient Greek philosophy destroys his argument.

That's a pretty rapid dismissal of a body of work, but fair play

 

[BigMoaner]

Hey all,

I find actually trying to understand what 'conversatism' is, is a little unclear.

However I did notice notice something a few years ago: modern 'conservatives' seem to be a little obsessed with the following:-

1. Taxes
2. Muslims.

But if you think about it, what is 'conservative' about these things? They are entirely consistent with neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is based on unleashing the power of corporations and the rich over the state. Samuel Huntington in 1993 produced his infamous 'clash of civilisations' thesis, and he is allegedly a 'liberal'.

There is further evidence in the fact that the old 'Cold War Warrior' was seen as a 'conservative' position.

Oh, and pretending to be a social conservative is popular too (but largely just whining rather than doing).

Would say taxes and Muslims are just one part of the rights current shit show. The rise of conspiracies now saturates a lot of their thinking, along with monitised alt right thinking. Grifters have as just as much power than newspapers, I would bet these days, which really is not a good prospect.

Ha ha good somemight say, but I hate to see them like this.

 

[RD2003]

Would say taxes and Muslims are just one part of the rights current shit show. The rise of conspiracies now saturates a lot of their thinking, along with monitised alt right thinking. Grifters have as just as much power than newspapers, I would bet these days, which really is not a good prospect.

Ha ha good somemight say, but I hate to see them like this.

It's tempting to dismiss the conspiracy-minded as stupid, but I've personally experienced that this is far from the case. There was a documentary series on BBC Sounds quite recently, focussing on Totnes, where apparently leftish people were bemoaning the fact that in contrast to when 'alt-right' figures last appeared in the town, after the spreading of the Covid/vaccine conspiracy theory many people they'd previously considered respected allies were standing with the alt-rightists who descended on the town.

I think the documentary was mentioned on here in some thread or other, and any poster living there would probably be able to say how accurate they consider it to be. I found it interesting, as I was in a relationship nearly 30 years ago with somebody who spent a large part of her growing up in Totnes, although as an 'incomer.' She was steeped in New Age cobblers yet far from daft, but I always thought that it could equally take her in a politically left or right direction.

I do wonder what things will look like three or four decades down the line (assuming WW3 hasn't happened or that many have somehow survived it and societies continue to function in some fashion), as it appears there's no stopping, or even effectively combatting this crap due mainly to the internet. The mass algorithm hijacking of lives, combined with the oncoming converging worldwide crises, makes the picture looks rather ugly.

 

[Protag]

I've tried to contend for years with being probably the most pessimistic radical socialist imaginable. You can't lose really-rare successes vindicate you as much as do the long line of defeats and failures.

I was intrigued to discover that the arch-pessimist Samuel Beckett was a lifelong left socialist. I regard him as being a bit like myself, but probably less of a miserabilist. And defintely not as clever...

I am like a proper social democrat/democratic socialist and I am pretty miserable too.

There are so many forces against it and being a liberal pretending to be left-wing seems to be popular. It sucks .....

I suppose change is always difficult, supporting the status quo is easy.

 

[Protag]

It's tempting to dismiss the conspiracy-minded as stupid, but I've personally experienced that this is far from the case. There was a documentary series on BBC Sounds quite recently, focussing on Totnes, where apparently leftish people were bemoaning the fact that in contrast to when 'alt-right' figures last appeared in the town, after the spreading of the Covid/vaccine conspiracy theory many people they'd previously considered respected allies were standing with the alt-rightists who descended on the town.

I think the documentary was mentioned on here in some thread or other, and any poster living there would probably be able to say how accurate they consider it to be. I found it interesting, as I was in a relationship nearly 30 years ago with somebody who spent a large part of her growing up in Totnes, although as an 'incomer.' She was steeped in New Age cobblers yet far from daft, but I always thought that it could equally take her in a politically left or right direction.

I do wonder what things will look like three or four decades down the line (assuming WW3 hasn't happened or that many have somehow survived it and societies continue to function in some fashion), as it appears there's no stopping, or even effectively combatting this crap due mainly to the internet. The mass algorithm hijacking of lives, combined with the oncoming converging worldwide crises, makes the picture looks rather ugly.

I am even pessimistic of these types of mainstream narratives. 'Conspiracy' as far as I can see is used to throttle democratic debate. I would say that being skeptical of power should be normal. The only thing that bothers me is when people pretend they have the whole world worked out when they do not.

I have been interested in the JFK assasination - very intriguing, I think there is something to it but I am not 100% sure. More information needs to be published. It wasn't Lyndon Johnson honest.

 

[BigMoaner]

I am even pessimistic of these types of mainstream narratives. 'Conspiracy' as far as I can see is used to throttle democratic debate. I would say that being skeptical of power should be normal. The only thing that bothers me is when people pretend they have the whole world worked out when they do not.

I have been interested in the JFK assasination - very intriguing, I think there is something to it but I am not 100% sure. More information needs to be published. It wasn't Lyndon Johnson honest.

I would say conspiracies throttle democratic debate rather than accusations of conspiracy. At least one is based in some sort of “reality”

 

[Protag]

I would say conspiracies throttle democratic debate rather than accusations of conspiracy. At least one is based in some sort of “reality”

Naive

 

[phildwyer]

Emil Coiran my favourite.

That's a name I haven't heard in a while. Ivan Karamazov goes on the piss with Arnold Schopenhauer, hilarity ensues.

Tbf he's vastly under-rated, not to say ignored. I think it's because he had a cup of tea with the Iron Guard in 1923.

 

[BigMoaner]

“[Happiness] cannot be characterised by the Logic of optimisation. What characterises happiness is that it is not at one’s disposal” Byung Chul Han

Read that then look out into the neoliberal world and see the hamster wheels spinning. I’m on my own one as we speak. It’s a cruel kind of slavery, a trick.

The most thoughtful on the right will also be seeing this, I hope.

 

[ouirdeaux]

It's tempting to dismiss the conspiracy-minded as stupid, but I've personally experienced that this is far from the case. There was a documentary series on BBC Sounds quite recently, focussing on Totnes, where apparently leftish people were bemoaning the fact that in contrast to when 'alt-right' figures last appeared in the town, after the spreading of the Covid/vaccine conspiracy theory many people they'd previously considered respected allies were standing with the alt-rightists who descended on the town.

All this proves is that the people they'd previously considered respected allies were stupid. Why is this surprising?

I have always wondered at the ability of most people to excuse the most blatant stupidity, as long as the person espousing the stupidity qualifies as an ideological ally. There are people who choose the right option for stupid reasons. Then they choose the wrong option, and suddenly everyone notices, and has to explain it away.