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Commodities traders caused starvation and malnutrition for 200 million people

There is no growth in juggling paper. It has no affect on what the capital they represent is doing. They're just another form of poker chhip.

Or, in conventional terms: saving

It is a lie that London subsidises the regions, it is the regions that pay heavily.

Abolish housing benefit.

Employers have to pay workers enough to live in the area.

They spread out to the cheap placee.

We still have the same companies, but they're more profitable/competitive. The benefits bill is decimated. Abolish DWP and pensions and replace it all with HMRC and a.citizens wage, and we're quids in.
 
It is a lie that London subsidises the regions, it is the regions that pay heavily.

I've seen you say this before. What do you mean by it?

Abolish housing benefit.

Employers have to pay workers enough to live in the area.


They spread out to the cheap placee.

How do you define area? I don't think you've thought this one through... Short term - lots of unemployment likely as private landlords realise they've been written a blank chequ7e by government, and price-gouge employers. Long-term: probably not as much extra employment in depressed regions as you think, because who wants to set up a business knowing there's a huge part of their costs they have no control over...
We still have the same companies, but they're more profitable/competitive. The benefits bill is decimated. Abolish DWP and pensions and replace it all with HMRC and a.citizens wage, and we're quids in.
Citizens' wage is either too expensive or leaves the neediest members of society without the support they need. It's not a solution.
 
Abolish housing benefit.

Employers have to pay workers enough to live in the area.

So those that own the land extort money from businesses rather than the government? Now I don't think that the case is proven that housing benefit in London has a significant downward pressure on wages. But let us assume for the sake of argument that it does, that it enables a significant number of businesses to find workers where otherwise they wouldn't (again, I don't think this is the case - hence the huge influx of Poles over the last few years, virtually none of whom will have been claiming housing benefit - but let us assume that it is).

Even in such a situation, I don't think you are addressing the real issue, which is that of land ownership. Individuals owning land and charging others for its use is the fundamental iniquity here, making money from owning rather than doing. Because that isn't really 'making' money. It is just taking money. It is legalised theft.

There is nothing 'natural' or 'just' about the level of rents in London. They reflect the asymmetrical distribution of wealth and they exacerbate that asymmetry. That's what needs tackling. Your solution would just make the situation worse - we need to breach the divide between social housing and private housing, bringing the rents in both broadly in line with each other by bringing private rents down. The housing benefit system doesn't tackle this, and so private landlords are given massive subsidies by government, which is absurd. But your solution would not tackle it either.
 
I'm not sure it is a derail, fs. Especially now you've nailed the bankers to the wall.

It's a not entirely dissimilar mechanism for the transfer of wealth from poor to rich. We're taxed to pay for in-work housing benefit, so that the employers can afford to set up in London or the SE.

W're financially subsidising speculators in property, allowing them to starve the poor of jobs.

/sort of
 
oi derailers... *shakes fist*

Not really. The bubble in housing is partly caused by the availability of easy money due to the de-regulation of the financial market. De regulation of markets in general has allowed for markets to have more interested parties. As more money goes into the system the prices rise. No longer are markets simply about the buyer and the seller they also exist to support an industry.

Commodities trading and increases in prices in commodities is also related to the supply of cash into the market. As I mentioned in an earlier post in many cases the market has moved from a place to trade to a system to make money from for financial industries. This is apparent in the vast array of new and often novel financial products.

Is anyone posting here as a trader or involved in these markets actually anything directly to do with the production of good being traded?

I'd go as far to say that financial products and the markets they earn their income from act in part as a tax on production.
 
The bubble in housing is partly caused by the availability of easy money due to the de-regulation of the financial market

Why did this happen? This is always the bit missed out. It's mental. Things don't just happen.
 
Why did this happen? This is always the bit missed out. It's mental. Things don't just happen.

Because, when it comes to economics, Thatcher was a pretty good chemist?

It happened because investors wanted more stupid money in the bubble to catch when it went bust. Housing had to become an investment, so restrict supply and increase demand. Debt was used to sustain demand instead of higher wages (now 20% lower as a proportion of GDP than 30 years ago) and the debts used as gambling instruments as they bet on how long it will take for us to have nothing left to lose and we string them up from the nearest lamp-post.
 
No, it happened because the real productive economy gave fuck all profits because of 10 years of fighting in the factories and wage inflation that expanded the social wage. Investors just didn't just find themselves suddenly having more money. You, as ever miss history and the working class in favour of economics just happening. Read some more.
 
It didn't happen because workers were being paid too much for profits. No. Bollocks sorry.

It happened because the bosses resented the workers getting paid too much. The oil shocks of the 1970s allowed the Keynesian narrative, and hegemony, to be broken.

There's a reason I focus on neo-classical theory and evidence. 99.9% of capitalists are getting ripped off here too, and I don't think we will have a successful, progressive revolution without understanding this stuff properly.
 
Capitalism doesn't work on resentment, or morals or fellings It work on flows on money and profits. It works on the continued production of surplus value, it works on investment in the real economy producing at the average rate of profit, and when it doesn't it moves into finance. That's what happened. We did it. Not them.

Better get cracking then.
 
calm down, do whatever the fuck you want. fwiw i'm trying to pay you a compliment.

Doesn't sound that complimentary to be honest does it?

I've had 10 years of people telling me to post differently. How much of a fuck do you think i gave? You're right.

So don't waste your time telling me to post differently.
 
Capitalism doesn't work on resentment, or morals or fellings It work on flows on money and profits. It works on the continued production of surplus value, it works on investment in the real economy producing at the average rate of profit, and when it doesn't it moves into finance. That's what happened. We did it. Not them.

Better get cracking then.

Fuck's sake. It's the Rand problem.

An economy built on mass consumerism needs workers paid enough to be consumers.

An employer can increase profits by cutting wages but if they all do, the economy crashes (whether or not consumer debt delays the inevitable).

Welfare, unions and minimum wage perform the function of preventing capitalists from destroying their own market through the pursuit of profit.

In the era of globalisation, it matters less, as long as there are consumers somewhere. Debt in countries that push paper to survive ends up owned by poor economies that make things. They are the consumers of the future. Hence Osborne's heist now.
 
What point are you making as regards financialistion post-74?

Rand dilemma? Please can we have some real stuff not freakenomics. Production creates value. It's what the system rests on it.
 
It was bad wording. But, the reason why Randism collapses. Selfish individualists are selfish. The social contract requires coercion to guarantee freedom, yada yada yada.

Financialisation in the 1980s used the perceived failure of Keynes, using the oil shocks, to propel the idiocy of monetarism centre-stage.

GDP growth was higher from 1945-80 than from 1980-2008. It isn't high wages that are the problem. Quite the reverse. Both huge crashes in the last century were preceded by massive peaks in income inequality.

Production only creates value if there is demand. China has created GDP by creating empty cities. If no one ever lives in them, the only value was the spin off from money in the pockets of those who built them.
 
Don't know what you're on about with the first waffle.

Value and GDP are not the same thing. I'm happy to talk about this stuff. You're just mentally throwing stuff at me that you've not integrated into a proper view of why things happen, that you're coming across in your new reading. Or uncritically giving me reports. Come on.
 
Don't know what you're on about with the first waffle.

Value and GDP are not the same thing. I'm happy to talk about this stuff. You're just mentally throwing stuff at me that you've not integrated into a proper view of why things happen, that you're coming across in your new reading. Or uncritically giving me reports. Come on.
Blimey..
Ayn Rand's position on government finance *is unusual, to say the least. Rand was not an anarchist and believed in the possibility of a legitimate state, but did not believe in taxation. This left her in the odd and almost certainly untenable position of advocating a minimal state financed voluntarily. In her essay "Government Financing in a Free Society", Rand wrote: heir interests directly, the citizens would (and should) be willing to pay for such services, as they pay for insurance.

This is faintly ridiculous. From one side, the libertarian anarchist will agree that people are willing to pay for these services, but that a government monopoly in their provision will lead only to inefficiency and abuse. From the other side, the liberal statist will defend the government provision of the public goods Rand mentions, but will quite rightly argue that Rand seems not to grasp perhaps the main reason government coercion is needed, especially if one believes, as Rand does, that individuals ought to act in their rational self-interest.

It's true that we each benefit from the availability of genuinely public goods, but we benefit most if we are able to enjoy them without paying for them. A rationally self-interested individual will not voluntarily pay for public goods if she believes others will pay and she can get a free ride. But if we're all rationally self-interested, and we know we're all rationally self-interested, we know everyone else will also try to get a*free ride, in which case it is doubly irrational to voluntarily pitch in. Even if you're not inclined to ride for free, why throw good money at an enterprise bound to fail?

By threatening coercion against those who refuse to pay, the state establishes the conditions under which it would not be pointless*to pitch in—a condition in which you can be confident others will pitch in too. Tax collection solves the "assurance problem", as the game theorists call it.

Generally, Rand's moral and political philosophies run aground by failing to follow the correct but counterintuitve logic of the social contract tradition. The interests of individuals in society are best met when limits on self-interest are observed and enforced. At a sub-political level, the internalisation of moral constraints on self-interest is, seemingly paradoxically, a requirement of self-interest.

At the political level, the artful application of state coercion overcomes the conflict and mis coordination*that prevail under conditions of "natural liberty" and establishes the peaceful and prosperous conditions of "civi liberty". It's worth adding that, in my opinion, the libertarian anarchist is right that if the public-goods argument justifies the services of the night-watchman state, it also justifies much more. In my opinion, the public-goods argument goes as far as justifying a scheme of social insurance that indemnifies individuals against a certain degree of bad fortune

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/taxes_and_government
 
It's the argument I was referring to that you said was waffle. Not here to write a fucking thesis for you, ya lazy cunt.
 
It's the argument I was referring to that you said was waffle. Not here to write a fucking thesis for you, ya lazy cunt.

So you ignored the important bit? Cut it out? I don't care about rand. Come back to the real world, deal with the other bit - and don't slag off others for not dealing with your posts in full when you act like that.
 
It's a fucking analogy you arrogant prat.

You can't be arsed to try and get it, I ain't gonna hold your fucking hand. The meaning is obvious.
 
Another one when you're left refusing to hold someones hand. Thing is, as i said, i don't give a fuck about rand. Waste your own time.

Also. Everyone else knew this years ago. Start listening to them.
 
I drew an analogy with Rand, you cock. You made a big deal out of not getting the reference.

It's you making stupid claims about high wages hurting profits. Bollocks. Prove it, you simplistic twat.
 
wtf? I'm not interested in Rand.

Are you new to history? :d

You're under prepared underarmed and under thought for this.

What do i have to prove to show what true again?

Bossy m/c, they get interested, they're trying to tell you what's what. Sociological lesson at least here.
 
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