Coming to Brixton: anti-abortion protests
- Thread starter el-ahrairah
- Start date
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
It's just social engineering though isn't it?
Just a way to wind up religious people and prevent them from annoying capitalism with all that stuff about everybody being nice to each other, while instead turning them into good little soldiers in the culture wars.
Funded by the same sort of people who pay religious nutters to oppose gay marriage, climate change and evolution, because it's good business to underwrite a bunch of credulous fanatics with no functioning critical immune system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
Just a way to wind up religious people and prevent them from annoying capitalism with all that stuff about everybody being nice to each other, while instead turning them into good little soldiers in the culture wars.
Funded by the same sort of people who pay religious nutters to oppose gay marriage, climate change and evolution, because it's good business to underwrite a bunch of credulous fanatics with no functioning critical immune system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Good article by Mehdi Hasan in New Statesman. There are plenty of lefties who are pro-life. Few have the guts to speak out but the Tide may be turning !!!! Yes!!!!!!!
Read the article. He says his view is a minority one.
Also I disagree fundamentally with his analysis of modern Feminism being a self centred consumerist philosophy. This argument has been trotted out regularly by the socially conservative left before.
He, as a socialist, misunderstands what freedom under Communism/ Socialism would be like. It is to achieve a society using technology to reduce work to a minimum and enable people to develop there own interests. Communism/ Socialism is not really about keeping people in rigid communities. The old labour values of solidarity and community can also be rigid and stifling. There have been Catholic Labour party members who have been pro life. Its not new.
Marx himself was both impressed and appalled by Capitalisms ability to change society and create wealth. It , however, gave riches to a few. It replacement by Communism would give the freedoms of the rich to the many. Individualism is not in opposition to Communism/ Socialism.
So women having control over there own bodies and reproduction is not contrary to socialism/ communism.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Good article by Mehdi Hasan in New Statesman. There are plenty of lefties who are pro-life. Few have the guts to speak out but the Tide may be turning !!!! Yes!!!!!!!
And another thought. Whilst you post up about pro life lefties. This is not the case with these protests. As Gunther points out this is part of campaign that is all about socially conservative Christian values. 40 days for life is a Christian led organisation. In this country looks to me like its dominated by the Catholics.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
I think he's a troll as well. Far too polite and jovial given the flack he's getting
On the other hand, could just be xtian smugness
Orang Utan
They cannot crucify you if your hand is in a fist
He's been banned so perhaps he is a troll
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
How does She feel about mackerel-snappers and their rosary beads?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Manter
Lunch Mob
It is, and they are a really f-ing nasty bunch, with some desperately repressive and regressive policies masquerading as 'natural empowement'.
(note to self- avoid all threads on Catholic family values stuff....get WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too cross... off to kick a puppy and calm down.)
Ol Nick
beer in Brixton
Good article by Mehdi Hasan in New Statesman. There are plenty of lefties who are pro-life. Few have the guts to speak out but the Tide may be turning !!!! Yes!!!!!!!
I'm extremely pro-life - as an atheist this life is all I believe I, and everyone else, has.
I also believe in a woman's right to elect to terminate her pregnancy under certain circumstances. This life is not perfect, and that certain decisions only involve least-worst alternatives.
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
Good post
a catholic friend of mine works at a catholic funded aids hospice in central america- they cant give condoms out but they do encourage women to go get them from another nearby project. Macho culture + poverty causing prostitution and aids and still the catholic church cant see condoms as a necessary thing. one of the reasons i had to leave it grrr
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The Catholic church still has powerful influence in South America. I have Argentinian friend who is supporter of Peronist President Cristina. They know what its like to have Catholics Church with a lot of influence. Same goes for stuff my Polish friends have told me. The "Law and Justice party" is basically a Catholic Nationalist party. Thats why some of them like it here.
That is why I am so anti church. In particular the Catholic church. In this country these people have to tone it down. But these demos outside Stopes and BPAS are not benign. The Catholics would love to have more influence here.
A recent case in Argentina is a women who was trafficked for sex. She managed to get the courts to allow her an abortion. Somehow the church found out where she lived and had a demo outside her house. Which the following article , below, asks a series of questions about. Like how did the church get given this information. This did lead to counter demo outside the priests.
See here in the Argentinian paper Pagina/12 ( left leaning paper). Will google translate.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Though I went past that lot in Bedford square Friday lunchtime and there were about 10 of them there praying. Seemed a more mixed bunch. So not sure if its only Catholics. In USA its not just Catholics. Hope they are not broadening there membership.
Still told them what I thought of them.
They even had a fucking nun right outside BPAS giving out leaflets.
Still told them what I thought of them.
They even had a fucking nun right outside BPAS giving out leaflets.
not-bono-ever
meh
They even had a fucking nun right outside BPAS giving out leaflets.
Hardly a new obervation on my part, but someone who has eschewed all sex n procreation activities ,giving out advice and lectures outside a BPAS does seem soemwhat incoungruous doesnt it ?
As a past user of the MS clinic in Brix, for both M & F issues, I would have been rather fucked off to have had to come up against these shitbags when i/ we were "customers" and pretty stressed anyway. I would have kicked off big time. Maybe less kicking off tho' so after my neutering as all I wanted to do was go home and have a lie down and load up with opaiate based painkillers.
BTW, isnt there a preganancy advice centre lurking conveniently in the building next door that looks suspiciously like a church ?
cunts.
editor
hiraethified
shakespearegirl
just worked out taglines
Added my opinion. They are horrible fuckers who can fuck the fuck off
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Having read the evidence to support this Public Space protection order I'm against it.
PSOP is from the same kind of legislation that brought us ASBOs.
It's anti civil liberties. I in no way support the anti abortion protestors. However I support there right to peaceful protest.
The evidence produced to support a PSOP is pretty feeble. The anti abortion protestors are handing out leaflets , praying and adking people if they need help. The only thing that is out of order imo is filming.
Ive seen these protestors outside Marie Stopes in Fitzrovia. Regularly give them abuse.
Imo people are entitled to peaceful protest and I'm entitled to give them verbal abuse. That's free speech.
PSOP is from the same kind of legislation that brought us ASBOs.
It's anti civil liberties. I in no way support the anti abortion protestors. However I support there right to peaceful protest.
The evidence produced to support a PSOP is pretty feeble. The anti abortion protestors are handing out leaflets , praying and adking people if they need help. The only thing that is out of order imo is filming.
Ive seen these protestors outside Marie Stopes in Fitzrovia. Regularly give them abuse.
Imo people are entitled to peaceful protest and I'm entitled to give them verbal abuse. That's free speech.
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brixtonblade
Well-Known Member
I disagree.
These protesters are entitled to demonstrate - the buffer zone does not prevent them doing this whilst does limit a lot of their intimidating behaviour.
ETA - they're pretty intimidating... they're not quietly handing out leaflets - they're right in people's faces
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Intimidating is a strong word. Have you read the evidence packs put forward to support this anti civil liberties order?
I don't like what they do. However handing out leaflets and praying isn't intimidating.
If the behaviour of protestors is intimidating there are already laws to deal with that.
Civil liberties and protest on the streets should not be whittled away.
The buffer zone is bollox. It makes protest pointless.
This kind of ASBO legislation is not about violent or physically aggressive behaviour. It's about the state intervening to limit and control behaviours that at a certain time are considered anti social. It's a slippery slope to start supporting this kind of legislation in this case.
This isn't about criminal behaviour.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
That's free speech. Ive done the same myself for other causes.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
This reminded me I was listening to the radio a few weeks ago. They were discussing justice. One legal person said it's better that 10 people get let off rather than one person be wrongly convicted.
Legislation like PSOP are offshoot of ASBO beloved of Nu Labour. It deals with what some see as the problem of not having strong enough evidence to stop people / individuals behaving in a certain way. Not having "enough" evidence to convict them of threatening behaviour for example.
That is the level of evidence required is set at a lower bar level under ASBO type legislation. It's highly dubious that justice is being taken down this route.
Legislation like PSOP are offshoot of ASBO beloved of Nu Labour. It deals with what some see as the problem of not having strong enough evidence to stop people / individuals behaving in a certain way. Not having "enough" evidence to convict them of threatening behaviour for example.
That is the level of evidence required is set at a lower bar level under ASBO type legislation. It's highly dubious that justice is being taken down this route.
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
It's not the same as shouting or being right in someones face on a march /protest
I disagree that praying or leafleting is not intimidating when it's aimed at a woman who's about to have a termination. It's often a very upsetting and confusing time for a person for many different reasons.
Women should not be intimidated or shamed when they seek a termination - it wouldn't be seen as appropriate to shout and protest at any other patient or client seeking a clinical service while vulnerable so why is it legitimate to do so to a woman in this circumstance?
anti abortion protesters can lobby and shout at Marie Stoppes or BPAS offices if they want to register a protest or even at a march/pro choice event
I disagree that praying or leafleting is not intimidating when it's aimed at a woman who's about to have a termination. It's often a very upsetting and confusing time for a person for many different reasons.
Women should not be intimidated or shamed when they seek a termination - it wouldn't be seen as appropriate to shout and protest at any other patient or client seeking a clinical service while vulnerable so why is it legitimate to do so to a woman in this circumstance?
anti abortion protesters can lobby and shout at Marie Stoppes or BPAS offices if they want to register a protest or even at a march/pro choice event
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Have you read the evidence? Nothing about shouting from the bits I've read so far. Maybe I'm wrong and you can show me.
Ive seen them out side Marie Stopes in West end. They don't shout. They stand about praying and handing out leaflets.
Have you seen them shouting?
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
My main point is that praying and leafleting IS intimidating to women about to get a termination - it's a challenge to their decision at a time when they may be vulnerable
it wouldn't be permitted on a clinical hospital ward
I know this footage below is from a BPAS and it's from a few years ago - it's highly intimidate to women at a vulnerable time
SpamMisery
Pretty comfortable here right under your skin
Agreed.
Some women going through the process are in very fragile and vulnerable states. The PSOP is about protecting them and allowing those that choose to go through an emotionally difficult process to do so without having dead baby posters or disapproving looks thrust in their face.
Some women going through the process are in very fragile and vulnerable states. The PSOP is about protecting them and allowing those that choose to go through an emotionally difficult process to do so without having dead baby posters or disapproving looks thrust in their face.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh, this. anti-abortion protests are something many people vehemently oppose, and so many people would support a psop to deal with them. when it comes to something people by contrast agree with that's being banned, well by then the precedent will have been set by actions taken against the anti-abortionists. people's support for this now is frankly making a rod for their own backs down the way.
a better way to deal with this would be to oppose the anti-abortionists on the streets to remove them from them.
Miss-Shelf
I'll meet you further on up the road
Counter protests are useful in combating the original protest but they add to the febrile atmosphere which is counter productive to the women attend the clinic
I get what Pickman's model and Gramsci are saying about the legislative basis for a buffer zone - what other options could be taken?
I get what Pickman's model and Gramsci are saying about the legislative basis for a buffer zone - what other options could be taken?
HelloNBD
Here Today
I have been approached by pro-life protesters outside clinics and I note (in a calm / polite manner) the distress that they often cause to women that have already made their decision. It is usually met with a barrage of hurtful statements about abortion being a sin, unlawful, shameful, disgusting etc etc.
The images and language used is extremely graphic; dead babies and murder.
It is misogynistic to pressure a woman to continue a pregnancy that will negatively impact them physically, socially and financially. As much as we are progressing in society, it is still more often than not, the mother that takes on the majority responsibility for the child.
We have no idea where these women are coming from and could have a number of different factors playing into their decision: timing, health, culture, finance, failed pregnancy, domestic or sexual abuse.
Abortion is legal. Women should be free to access the services without judgement and being harassed.
I support the right to freedom of speech but these protests should not be allowed to take place near the clinics.
On a related note: I'm not religious but I don't mind people in the street handing out leaflets or asking to speak as I can politely decline. Public religious preaching in Brixton seems to be getting so much more shouty and aggro. A memorial for David Bowie was overshadowed by someone on a megaphone, there are a selection of regular bible shouters outside the tube and don't even get me started on the guys in sacks. I see that as anti social behaviour but I'm not sure if / how it could be addressed. Freedom of speech can be a pain in the arse!
The images and language used is extremely graphic; dead babies and murder.
It is misogynistic to pressure a woman to continue a pregnancy that will negatively impact them physically, socially and financially. As much as we are progressing in society, it is still more often than not, the mother that takes on the majority responsibility for the child.
We have no idea where these women are coming from and could have a number of different factors playing into their decision: timing, health, culture, finance, failed pregnancy, domestic or sexual abuse.
Abortion is legal. Women should be free to access the services without judgement and being harassed.
I support the right to freedom of speech but these protests should not be allowed to take place near the clinics.
On a related note: I'm not religious but I don't mind people in the street handing out leaflets or asking to speak as I can politely decline. Public religious preaching in Brixton seems to be getting so much more shouty and aggro. A memorial for David Bowie was overshadowed by someone on a megaphone, there are a selection of regular bible shouters outside the tube and don't even get me started on the guys in sacks. I see that as anti social behaviour but I'm not sure if / how it could be addressed. Freedom of speech can be a pain in the arse!
