Coming to Brixton: anti-abortion protests

[8ball]

you can't argue with people who think they have god on their side. the wrath of the righteous is the only language they understand.

No, you can.

You never know at the time, unless you get to know them, but you can plant seeds and sometimes they'll think later about what you said.
In my experience people who are religious are no less rational than non-religious people. Sometimes they're more aware of when they're letting go of rationality, so can be more amenable to reason than someone who thinks all their opinions have come from their reasoning rather than their experiences and emotional responses to them.

 

[kittyP]

Did you see my posts on the previous page 8ball?

 

[smmudge]

This is not USA.

You're right. If this was the USA we might actually have a decent pro-choice movement, doctors who perform abortions because that's what they actually want to do, and a hell of a lot more funding for abortion research.

Marie Stopes supported eugenics and was a product of her class, her time and her environment as far as anti-Semitism went. So far, so ordinary. That a Catholic newspaper attempts to obfuscate the importance of Stopes' work by drawing attention to her personal prejudices, as if they invalidate her work, is indicative of the Catholic Herald knowing that they've got nothing worth saying about the core business of the Marie Stopes clinics.

Which is funny because there are plenty of criticisms to be levelled at the the way Marie Stopes clinics are run.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which is funny because there are plenty of criticisms to be levelled at the the way Marie Stopes clinics are run.

The Herald wouldn't interested in that, though, because criticising structural and organisational faults of an organisation doesn't have quite the same appeal as spouting emotive claptrap to an increasingly-partisan readership. I'm not saying the C.H. is a latter-day Der Stuermer, but it has become more and more of a conservative Catholic mouthpiece for the Vatican over the last decade or so, which is a shame.

 

[8ball]

Did you see my posts on the previous page 8ball?

Yes. Interesting tactic.

 

[smmudge]

The Herald wouldn't interested in that, though, because criticising structural and organisational faults of an organisation doesn't have quite the same appeal as spouting emotive claptrap to an increasingly-partisan readership.

Yes quite, and criticising the worst policies of Marie Stopes only backs up the pro-choice stance which I don't think is their (CH's) aim in any case.

 

[Gramsci]

I asked a Nation Of Islam chap if I could have one of his papers as I was interested in what they had to say, but he refused to even acknowledge me .

FFS. N of I are really crap. See them on Brixton road quite often.

 

[Gramsci]

You're right. If this was the USA we might actually have a decent pro-choice movement, doctors who perform abortions because that's what they actually want to do, and a hell of a lot more funding for abortion research.

If I was a doctor I reckon Id rather do abortions here than US. Abortion, unless this lot get there way, is not an election issue here.

 

[Boppity]

Twats. Makes me so fucking mad, as if it isn't difficult enough.

 

[smmudge]

If I was a doctor I reckon Id rather do abortions here than US. Abortion, unless this lot get there way, is not an election issue here.

Yes the anti-abortion movement is more active in the States but so is the pro-choice movement. So you'd have to deal with the nutters in the States, but here you have a pervasive and unspoken sense of shame that goes largely uncontested.

 

[Plumdaff]

I'd rather have a pervasive sense of shame than a vaginal ultrasound which is what women have to go through in some states. I'm not one for hair trigger anti Americanism, but we really do have it much better over here. It's Handmaid's Tale stuff in large areas.

 

[keithy]

What does my head in about these fucking dickheads is that they didn't make me think or feel any differently about my abortion long term, they just made my actual appointments really stressful and frightening. They put women through hell short-term for no fucking point. I just wanted to smack em but the clinic tells you not to engage or interact with them at all. perhaps I should have gone back and just thrown it all at them, literally.

 

[smmudge]

I'd rather have a pervasive sense of shame than a vaginal ultrasound which is what women have to go through in some states. I'm not one for hair trigger anti Americanism, but we really do have it much better over here. It's Handmaid's Tale stuff in large areas.

A practice that receives widespread criticism, which is why you hear about it.

And over here we have Marie Stopes doing same-day dilation (as opposed to at least 24 hours) for D&E abortions up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy even though there's no research to suggest it's safe beyond 22 weeks, and very little to suggest it's safe beyond 19. And yet this is standard, largely uncriticised practice (which rarely happens, by the way, in the States beyond 16 weeks).

 

[Gramsci]

Yes the anti-abortion movement is more active in the States but so is the pro-choice movement. So you'd have to deal with the nutters in the States, but here you have a pervasive and unspoken sense of shame that goes largely uncontested.

Really? As far as I can see abortions get done here with little fuss. Do I want a full on American style argument about it here? Answer No thanks.

"40 days for life" is an American organisation. This is not America. I do not like America. As I told them in Bedford square they can fuck off back there and demonstrate. This is UK and you get abortions here.

In that fucked up place Northern Ireland you dont. Due to religous sensitivities.

And what is your experience of the USA?

 

[Pickman's model]

I asked a Nation Of Islam chap if I could have one of his papers as I was interested in what they had to say, but he refused to even acknowledge me .

you have to BUY one, they don't hand them out willy-nilly.

 

[Gramsci]

A practice that receives widespread criticism, which is why you hear about it.

And over here we have Marie Stopes doing same-day dilation (as opposed to at least 24 hours) for D&E abortions up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy even though there's no research to suggest it's safe beyond 22 weeks, and very little to suggest it's safe beyond 19. And yet this is standard, largely uncriticised practice (which rarely happens, by the way, in the States beyond 16 weeks).

What happens in States beyond 16 weeks? yes i meant 16

 

[smmudge]

Really? As far as I can see abortions get done here with little fuss. Do I want a full on American style argument about it here? Answer No thanks.

I don't think a full on American style argument would necessarily be any worse than what we have now. It might activate a pro-choice movement to actually challenge the stigma of abortion we have here, and the insidious rhetoric in the media that it is a 'necessary evil' that is internalised by both doctors and patients. Maybe there isn't enough fuss for me. Maybe I want a fucking fuss.

What happens in States beyond 6 weeks?

Do you mean 16 weeks? Then usually it's overnight/24 hours cervical dilation (which happens here too, just not in Marie Stopes clinics).

 

[Gramsci]

I don't think a full on American style argument would necessarily be any worse than what we have now. It might activate a pro-choice movement to actually challenge the stigma of abortion we have here, and the insidious rhetoric in the media that it is a 'necessary evil' that is internalised by both doctors and patients. Maybe there isn't enough fuss for me. Maybe I want a fucking fuss.

Do you mean 16 weeks? Then usually it's overnight/24 hours cervical dilation (which happens here too, just not in Marie Stopes clinics).

Yes I meant 16. just edited it.

OK I think I see where ur coming from now. The British Abortion system is a fudge. Like the need to get a doctor to sign a form to say the woman is in need of abortion. These are the following

"In the UK, abortions are allowed on certain grounds, including that continuing with the pregnancy would be a greater risk to the woman's life, physical or mental health than ending the pregnancy, continuing would be more of a risk to the physical or mental health of any of the woman's existing children and there is a real risk the child would have a serious physical or mental disability"

Its ridiculous. There is not in law abortion on demand in this country. So yes a debate to end this fudge that the anti abortionist can use. See the linked article where doctors are accused of pre signing forms. Clearly signing the form is formality in practise. It does not challenge stigma of abortion but does accepts it. Abortion can only happen if the womens life would be under "greater" risk.

Am I correct this is what u mean?

 

[smmudge]

Yes exactly, that there's a (stupidly vague) condition on having an abortion - it's not just the woman's choice - and that two doctors need to agree. The woman shouldn't have to divulge her circumstances or give her reasons; that she's chosen to have an abortion should be enough.

But also the occasional media headlines that repeat abortions are rising or the UK has the highest abortion rate in Europe, and if it's not outright 'shocking', it's implicit that abortions are a Bad Thing. And you have quotes from anti-abortion groups saying how awful it is and that we need to get the numbers down, then you have the abortion providers saying pretty much the same thing!! Well that is bullshit. Abortion isn't a bad thing, it's a very good thing; a safe and effective medical solution to a problematic situation that some women find themselves in. The 'problem' is unplanned pregnancy, not abortion, so why have a panic over one of the things that actually solves the problem? I just wish abortion providers had the balls to be more explicit about it.

 

[CH1]

you have to BUY one, they don't hand them out willy-nilly.

RE: Orang Utan said: I asked a Nation Of Islam chap if I could have one of his papers as I was interested in what they had to say, but he refused to even acknowledge me .

I bought a "Final Call" many years ago out of curiosity. Their policies/beliefs mainly consist of:
1. NO miscegenation (interbreeeding of races) - a bit odd considering the distinctly light complexion of their current leader Farakhan
2. They want some (presumably) southern sates of the USA to be designated as "black" to be ruled by blacks.
They are certainly not orthodox Muslims, maybe you could say they bear a similar relationship to Islam (of any variety) to the relationship the Mormons have to Christianity - by analogy.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, I am familiar with the nation of islam.

Used to get the final call from them in dalston

 

[CH1]

Yes, I am familiar with the nation of islam.

Used to get the final call from them in dalston

so what's their line on abortion then?

 

[Pickman's model]

so what's their line on abortion then?

Against it.

For future reference: google is your friend

 

[simonSW2]

Hello forum - longtime brixton dweller, first time post..

I assisted in breaking up the last protest on Brixton Hill and I intend to do the same again if they come back.

Last time, after watching what they were up to, and then unsuccessfully challenging and trying to disrupt their protest, I rang the police and reported them for harassment of women.

How to catch them out:
They must stay on the opposite side of the road. When the police arrived one of the protestors was pushing leaflets on girls outside the entrance gates, which could be defined as harassment.

These people have two sets of leaflets. The ones they hold in their hands and give out to anyone, then the other ones they conceal in their pockets which include disturbing and bloody images. One of the protesters had shown me their 'alternative' leaflet, which these sickos bring out to shock and terrify young girls. I explained this to the police, who then asked the guy to show them. At that moment he nodded to his group and they instantly all turned and marched off!

 

[purenarcotic]

Ok, bunging the cat amongst the pigeons, maybe, but has anyone here ever tried actually engaging these people in conversation.

Shouting at them, throwing things etc. is going to harden attitudes in exactly the same way as when young teens get kettled on a peaceful process.
I've changed minds in conversation with others, and also had my own mind changed. At worst you'll just be wasting your time rather than entrenching their resolve.

I have once, outside a clinic. It's the first and only time a conversation with somebody has made me physically throw up. They are vile, vile excuses for human beings.

 

[Gramsci]

Last time, after watching what they were up to, and then unsuccessfully challenging and trying to disrupt their protest, I rang the police and reported them for harassment of women.

How to catch them out:
They must stay on the opposite side of the road. When the police arrived one of the protestors was pushing leaflets on girls outside the entrance gates, which could be defined as harassment.

These people have two sets of leaflets. The ones they hold in their hands and give out to anyone, then the other ones they conceal in their pockets which include disturbing and bloody images. One of the protesters had shown me their 'alternative' leaflet, which these sickos bring out to shock and terrify young girls. I explained this to the police, who then asked the guy to show them. At that moment he nodded to his group and they instantly all turned and marched off!

Thanks Simon.

Up at Marie Stopes in Whitfield street and BPAS in Bedford sq they had one person outside entrance to give out leaflets.

The rest praying on other side of street.

Interesting point about being on same side of street. I've seen demo's outside embassies. The Police normally insist on people being on opposite pavement.

 

[MaxKolbe]

Hello,
You do realise your anger, violence & hatred will never ever stop the peaceful and loving message of 40 days for life? I am off to Brixton now. Your violence will be met by love and penance.
Laters

 

[nagapie]

I'm on my way out of London but I think someone should go down there and give him a bit of peace and love.

 

[joustmaster]

Hello,
You do realise your anger, violence & hatred will never ever stop the peaceful and loving message of 40 days for life? I am off to Brixton now. Your violence will be met by love and penance.
Laters

I hope you get trapped in a house fire

 

[MaxKolbe]

I'm on my way out of London but I think someone should go down there and give him a bit of peace and love.

Aw bless you. Thanks