Characterizing Israel

[DrRingDing]

Thanks for the slogan.

How about some actual analysis, or is that beneath you?

Right now I couldn't give a fuck for mental masturbation....but you stroke away.

 

[DotCommunist]

What's the point of trying to apply a label? The history of elsewhere is obviously interesting, but labels can only take you into War Crime Top Trumps. It is what it is, and what it does.

The contemporary world can and regularly does permanently accept lots of the component parts of what Israel is. It can accept that land changes hands unilaterally. It can accept that an arbitrary group of people seek nationhood, sometimes in a very particular place. It can even accept religion as the driver for that. It accepts the right to actions borne of 'self defence', even when not proportionate.

However, all of those things normally come heavily burdened with conditions or prerequisites or a requirement of credit (e.g. a people having been recently oppressed), which were either escaped entirely or have fallen away in this case.

What I wonder about is how long the world will accept what's effectively a rogue, misbehaving state. So many global factors and mechanisms implicitly or explicitly depend on that not being a workable choice that's open to anyone, at least in the medium to long term of geopolitics.

I also wonder how long Judaism in particular (which I don't profess to understand at all) and possibly even outright Zionism can accept this particular state implementation. If it's supposed to be the living, breathing model representation of Jewish nationhood, then whatever, but what special configuration of idiot keeps backing their mascot after it goes out of control and murders children? Can the dream not ever be untied from this shitty, failing attempt at it? Is the fear that the Holocaust presented the only opportunity, or what?

careful here mauvais, zionism is not an extremest form of judaism. It is secular in nature and many jews reject it based on that alone! we musn't fall into the trap of thinking people=faith imo

 

[mauvais]

careful here mauvais, zionism is not an extremest form of judaism. It is secular in nature and many jews reject it based on that alone! we musn't fall into the trap of thinking people=faith imo

I'm not sold on that - I'd go with 'can be' secular rather than 'is' - although it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter because the relevant link between belief and state can be of religious ideology or secular political convenience for all the difference it makes.

It's obvious that Judaism doesn't inherently equal either Zionism or Israel, and obvious that in practice the two are independent for many Jews. However the conflation of the two isn't merely an invention of the onlooker - for example the agenda of the British Board of Deputies.

Ultimately that's part of my point: why would anyone at least one step removed from the Israeli state allow their ideas - religious or political - to be so unnecessarily intertwined with those of a rogue state's particular government?

 

[frogwoman]

excellent post mauvais - this is it, this is why for some people its not as simple saying Zionism =/= Judaism or criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitic. However opposed to the actions of Israel many jews are you would simply not get the vast majority of them to support a BDS campaign in my opinion (although that might change, but I can't see it) for example which is one of the reasons I in the past, have opposed it (although I am coming round to it now quite frankly, I certainly don't intend to buy anything Israeli ever again although I wouldn't judge anyone else for not doing so)

Many Jews have family in Israel, and of course over time the agenda of the board of deputies and similar organisations has become completely entwined with the agenda of the state of Israel and Zionism. It's not a conspiracy, it's simply looking at who the most influential within the jewish community have become (as in most groups, right wing and conservative). There are reasons why Israel has for many people become the centrepiece of jewish identity and criticising Israel becomes a way of actually rejecting that identity. For example my dad told me that after the 1967 war that was the first time when he was actually proud to be a Jew because previously Jews were viewed as this passive group that were always being killed and now suddenly they were strong and powerful. And when Israel's atrocities became apparent disliking the state of Israel became tied up with a whole load of other problems about Judaism that he had.

The fact is if you go into many synagogues today, you will see Israeli flags and such like, you will see maps of biblical Israel which often don't include the west bank and gaza clearly demarked. And the people aren't Zionists necessarily its just become such a part of the religious and cultural landscape. I also think many people who go to Israel on one of these religious tours etc aren't even thinking about Zionism, it just doesn't even enter into their heads, its completely removed.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm not seeing it. Someone holds to x secular ideology and y religion therefore x is an expression of y? how does that stack up?

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not seeing it. Someone holds to x secular ideology and y religion therefore x is an expression of y? how does that stack up?

well ISIS are still an expression of islam aren't they?

a very twisted one, and not the only one, but even so ...

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not seeing it. Someone holds to x secular ideology and y religion therefore x is an expression of y? how does that stack up?

thing is, Zionism isn't just one thing

it started off as a secular ideology but there are plenty of religious Zionists and religious justifications for for example, viewing Palestinians as "Amalek" (the nation in the bible that G-d said must be destroyed)

you can read loads of shit by "moderate" religious Zionists going on about this

 

[DotCommunist]

well ISIS are still an expression of islam aren't they?

a very twisted one, and not the only one, but even so ...

by that logic a communist churchgoer means communism is an expression of christianity though

 

[DotCommunist]

thing is, Zionism isn't just one thing

it started off as a secular ideology but there are plenty of religious Zionists and religious justifications for for example, viewing Palestinians as "Amalek" (the nation in the bible that G-d said must be destroyed)

you can read loads of shit by "moderate" religious Zionists going on about this

ah now this makes more sense- its become intertwined for some?

 

[frogwoman]

ah now this makes more sense- its become intertwined for some?

Yes. It's become hugely intertwined and not just by that extreme logic.

I've been in synagogues where they say prayers for the IDF ffs. Are they all genocidal loons who agree with Israeli actions? not at all. that's become the custom though.

 

[frogwoman]

So making out that it has "nothing to do with religion" is not that simple and may explain why some jews support the Israeli government or at least why they are unwilling to criticise it in the absence of other evidence.

I'm an anti-Zionist jew but I think this stuff is essential to understand if you want to understand Israel's support base and what's driving this support. It isn't just "they're all cunts" (although increasingly, it is becoming the case)

 

[frogwoman]

I mean how do you change a situation where people are standing up in shul saying prayers for the idf and prayers for the captured soldiers as they have done for umpteen years. lol. fucked if I know.

thing is I'd be happy to say a prayer for the idf, they're mostly working class kids being sent to die, if that was what was said in the prayer that would be fine by me. that's not what is meant when it gets said though. mostly I end up sitting at the back feeling uncomfortable

things are changing, but jesus

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here's a quite interesting Adam Curtis piece from 2012, about the symbiosis between the rise of Hamas and the Israeli far-right.

He's not telling the whole story, for example about Israeli ethnic cleansing from '48 onwards, but it's thought-provoking stuff, supported with some fascinating archive footage.

The collapse of that optimistic vision of what politics could achieve then left the way open for powerful, reactionary forces to take power who don't want to change the world. Instead they want to manage the world and hold it stable - backed up by the threat of violence. A threat to which they have become increasingly addicted.

This has happened not only in America and in Britain - but all over the world. And I want to tell the story of how it happened in the Middle East. It is the intertwined story of the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Hamas in the Gaza strip and the reactionary right-wing nationalist groups in Israel.

All three groups are driven by an angry, pessimistic vision of the world, of human nature - and the inability of politicians to transform things for the better. It's a fascinating story because it shows how the underlying similarities led those groups to become tightly locked together - helping each other cement their ruthless grip on their people - and freeze out any progressive alternatives.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/adamcurtis/2012/11/save_your_kisses_for_me.html

 

[ViolentPanda]

Right now I couldn't give a fuck for mental masturbation....but you stroke away.

Then why post on a thread in a forum entitled "theory, philosophy and history", you utter dick-drip?
Actually, we all know why - to do a bit more posturing about what a fucking hardman take-no-prisoners activist you are.

Jog on, sonny. Posturing mugs are ten a penny, although I'll grant you that posturing mugs who obviously fantasise about other blokes masturbating are slightly rarer than that.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's a racist militaristic state that simply has no right to exist.

I disagree. It does but it needs to stop the land grabs and settlements and give the people of Palestine freedom.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And an invented nationalistic idea of a homeland, which goes against the religious beliefs it is supposedly based on.,

TBF all ideas of a homeland are more or less "invented", generally by "interest groups" who are invested in spreading their invention. I can't think of any "homeland" fantasy tat doesn't include some mind-numbingly arseholian assumptions about "the race" (or culture) and "others".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I also think the Israelis have been very clever in giving Palestinians/Arab Israelis within Israel almost the same rights as Jews.

Although, of course, we don't see many moves in the knesset to strip Israeli Arab MPs of their positions because they happen to be Arabs who don't entirely agree with the Zionist majority.

He said, sarcastically.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

TBF all ideas of a homeland are more or less "invented", generally by "interest groups" who are invested in spreading their invention. I can't think of any "homeland" fantasy tat doesn't include some mind-numbingly arseholian assumptions about "the race" (or culture) and "others".

Does that include the assertion by aboriginal groups in North America, Australia etc. of land claims to ancestral territories?

 

[krtek a houby]

TBF all ideas of a homeland are more or less "invented", generally by "interest groups" who are invested in spreading their invention. I can't think of any "homeland" fantasy tat doesn't include some mind-numbingly arseholian assumptions about "the race" (or culture) and "others".

Like NI/6 counties and the United Ireland dream, I guess

 

[Pickman's model]

I disagree. It does but it needs to stop the land grabs and settlements and give the people of Palestine freedom.

how does it have 'a right' to exist? do states anywhere have rights?

 

[ViolentPanda]

excellent post mauvais - this is it, this is why for some people its not as simple saying Zionism =/= Judaism or criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitic. However opposed to the actions of Israel many jews are you would simply not get the vast majority of them to support a BDS campaign in my opinion (although that might change, but I can't see it) for example which is one of the reasons I in the past, have opposed it (although I am coming round to it now quite frankly, I certainly don't intend to buy anything Israeli ever again although I wouldn't judge anyone else for not doing so)

Many Jews have family in Israel, and of course over time the agenda of the board of deputies and similar organisations has become completely entwined with the agenda of the state of Israel and Zionism. It's not a conspiracy, it's simply looking at who the most influential within the jewish community have become (as in most groups, right wing and conservative). There are reasons why Israel has for many people become the centrepiece of jewish identity and criticising Israel becomes a way of actually rejecting that identity. For example my dad told me that after the 1967 war that was the first time when he was actually proud to be a Jew because previously Jews were viewed as this passive group that were always being killed and now suddenly they were strong and powerful. And when Israel's atrocities became apparent disliking the state of Israel became tied up with a whole load of other problems about Judaism that he had.

The fact is if you go into many synagogues today, you will see Israeli flags and such like, you will see maps of biblical Israel which often don't include the west bank and gaza clearly demarked. And the people aren't Zionists necessarily its just become such a part of the religious and cultural landscape. I also think many people who go to Israel on one of these religious tours etc aren't even thinking about Zionism, it just doesn't even enter into their heads, its completely removed.

^^^This.
It's alarming, the degree to which Zionist assumptions have been naturalised on an ongoing basis since the '70s in many synagogues. All you need is a rabbi who has a bent toward Zionism, or someone pushing, and what should be a neutrally-religious venue becomes an advert for the desires and assumptions of the state of Israel.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not seeing it. Someone holds to x secular ideology and y religion therefore x is an expression of y? how does that stack up?

It doesn't, not exactly. It's more that there's sometimes more affinity than not between the two seemingly-separate sets of beliefs - ideology and religion.

 

[two sheds]

Would it be a derail to ask how we can characterize supporters of the present Israeli killing of Palestinians?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I disagree. It does but it needs to stop the land grabs and settlements and give the people of Palestine freedom.

And here is another "confusion" commonly seen around the issue - that nationalist Zionism has it within itself to "stop the land grabs and settlements and give the people of Palestine freedom".
The form of Zionism practiced in and by the state of Israel since foundation doesn't allow for stopping the land grabs etc. It's based on assumptions about the hegemony and primacy of one set of people, and that the land "belongs" to them, no ifs and no buts, and certainly no pesky Palestinians. To accept the right of Palestinians to live on that land is in direct conflict with both the assumptions of the nationalist Zionists, AND with the practices they've carried out since 1948, practices such as: massacring villages; "Hebraicising" place-names; eradicating evidence of Arab settlement (including archaeology - remember how pissed off the world was when the Taliban did that?); pushing Palestinians into ever-smaller pieces of land; causing Palestinians with resources to flee - plus a host of other shitty tricks that make it quite clear that "stopping the land grabs etc will never be on the agenda.

BTW, when the "right to exist" is mentioned, many (lazy) people assume that what's being asked is "do Jews have a right to exist?". That's emphatically NOT the question. The question is "Does Zionism, as a political practice informing the decisions of a state about those it governs, have the right to exist?", and the answer is "it has no more right to exist than any other racist state that seeks to eradicate an inconvenient minority, i.e. no right at all".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Would it be a derail to ask how we can characterize supporters of the present Israeli killing of Palestinians?

Cheerleaders for murder.

 

[frogwoman]

^^^This.
It's alarming, the degree to which Zionist assumptions have been naturalised on an ongoing basis since the '70s in many synagogues. All you need is a rabbi who has a bent toward Zionism, or someone pushing, and what should be a neutrally-religious venue becomes an advert for the desires and assumptions of the state of Israel.

yeah, and I don't know what we can do about it
what do you think?

 

[frogwoman]

Its everywhere, give money to such and such so they can plant trees in Israel

 

[ViolentPanda]

Does that include the assertion by aboriginal groups in North America, Australia etc. of land claims to ancestral territories?

The clue is in the word "aboriginal".

 

[ViolentPanda]

yeah, and I don't know what we can do about it
what do you think?

The only thing we can do is appeal to the better natures of people who buy into the myths, although as we both know, that's generally a long and disheartening process, because for many such people, their belief in Israel is bound up with all sorts of shite whereby they believe that the Zionists actually represent the idea of Israel, rather than an idea of Israel.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Like NI/6 counties and the United Ireland dream, I guess

If you're talking about the desires of some to kick the Protestants into the Irish Sea and drown them, then yes, if you're talking about peaceful co-existence, then no.
The thing with nationalist Zionism in Israel is that its' actions and pronouncements make clear that "peaceful co-existence" isn't on the agenda.