Can "left/right" be applied to pre-French Revolution figures and movements?
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JimW
支那暗杀团
I suppose if you retrospectively apply an analysis of the interests they were serving it could be useful, because even the apparent religious questions are often expressions of underlying social conflicts (happen to have picked up a copy of Hill's Society and Puritanism recently, so following his take on that).
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well, you need to take it out of the political system and not think in terms of representation. It's very tempting to say these were the historically progressive forces but the problem is that these are usually on the right (in today's terms) so what does that then make the left? (And what does that make of today? Should we support modernising forces in the Afghanistan -what is modernising and so on)
JimW
支那暗杀团
That's true - wouldn't want to give the impression that I think Hill is doing anything so crude as just looking at what was 'progressive' or not. You get a similar take in Underdown's Fire From Heaven on the Puritan project in Dorchester - one the one hand, there's genuine motivations of charity and 'Godliness', on the other it's part of the imposition of discipline that will serve the new modes of production then just emerging.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
OTOH, in their work on southern Africa, the Comaroffs argue that while protestant missionaries in the region may have introduced indigenous populations to concepts of time that were well suited to (a little later on) getting indigenous to clock into the mines, etc., those same missionaries left behind a notion of 'all men are brothers'. And this notion, however vague it may have been, was in direct contradiction to the fundamental premises of apartheid. . .
Ibn Khaldoun
the present is dead, long live the future . . .
They don't really 'apply' outside of modernity; they don't mean anything in feudal England, or ancient Maya etc..
What about Wat?
I don't think those terms are any use today, never mind pre-1789.
No, actually they are useful. They're used to prevent people from thinking for themselves. People identify themselves as "left-wing" and their position on every issue from guns to God is determined for them. Saves having to think every issue through, who has time for that?
No, actually they are useful. They're used to prevent people from thinking for themselves. People identify themselves as "left-wing" and their position on every issue from guns to God is determined for them. Saves having to think every issue through, who has time for that?
deke t lefel
Active Member
left/right orientation has become more influential since the rise of capitalism which has caused a polarising effect within politics
prior to that, the demise of feudalism saw a reduction in the influence of the upper/lower class system, which in turn was preceded by a reduction in the influence of organised religion
prior to that, the demise of feudalism saw a reduction in the influence of the upper/lower class system, which in turn was preceded by a reduction in the influence of organised religion
All real revolutions - are communist revolutions. People revolting in the form of a "we". Not "what do I get from this". When people are ready to die for the revolution - that is for sure a real (and a communist) revolution. What do they get if they are dead ? Nothing, but there is a "we". And this does not mean they are mindless zombies that gave up thinking. The zombies that gave up thinking for themselves - are usually the soldiers sent there to fight them. These are always "capitalists". Fighting for profit, and stuff.
What about the Iranian revolution of 1978-79?
That's arguably the most authentic people's revolution in history. But I don't see how anyone could call it "communist."
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
Hmm, let's see - he was a genocidal murderer who abolished the monarchy. Has to be a loony leftist, clearly.
It reflected the will of the majority. Unlike the English, American, French and Russian revolutions.
The 'we' bit is always anchored by the 'me' bit imo. That is self-interest. I've always viewed the altruistic super hero revolutionary mindset to be a bit well, incongruent with what communism would be like if it were to be popularly rooted in the needs of many people who decide to act in a certain way and make a revolution.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Because it was rooted in solidarity, even for the deeply religious? And also because it involved masses of lefties and trade unionists.
gorski
customised free radical
Can it be called a revolution? By which criteria?
What else could you call it?
gorski
customised free radical
There was a specific Q of mine, I must note, Phil... Not like you not to give a straight A... You OK? 
Not every social, political and even economic change, even if deep and huge, is a move forward... Not necessarily a revolution, then...
[Yes, I would have a progressive bit in there, sure...
]
Not every social, political and even economic change, even if deep and huge, is a move forward... Not necessarily a revolution, then...
[Yes, I would have a progressive bit in there, sure...
]
gorski
customised free radical
It can also be called counter-revolution, if it heads in the pre-Modernity direction...
This gorski, unlike you, it seems, cherishes his brains and doesn't allow shit to it...
Nope, argumentum ad consensus gentium never worked - and never will!!
Moreover, there is no "neutral" ground from which to judge...
Therefore, we must be clear from which ground we...
Hence my question...
This gorski, unlike you, it seems, cherishes his brains and doesn't allow shit to it...
Nope, argumentum ad consensus gentium never worked - and never will!!
Moreover, there is no "neutral" ground from which to judge...
Therefore, we must be clear from which ground we...
Hence my question
deke t lefel
Active Member
if revolution is defined as a fundamental change of a power structure, then the sixteenth century protestant reformation can be defined as a revolution
this "revolution" caused a power vacuum which was largely filled by a strengthening of the ruling monarchies of the class system
revolutions against these ruling classes followed and the power vacuum caused by these revolutions paved the way for the development of politics as a ruling system
the emerging revolution is an anti-politics revolution and the obvious question is........what will fill the vacuum?
this "revolution" caused a power vacuum which was largely filled by a strengthening of the ruling monarchies of the class system
revolutions against these ruling classes followed and the power vacuum caused by these revolutions paved the way for the development of politics as a ruling system
the emerging revolution is an anti-politics revolution and the obvious question is........what will fill the vacuum?
cutandsplice
putting things together
Wat, what?
gorski
customised free radical
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
ska invita
back on the other side
theres the Historic Lies series on BBC at the mo which 'repaints' Marie - as usual I have forgotten everything I watched and heard so cant tell you otherwise
BBC Two - Royal History’s Biggest Fibs with Lucy Worsley, Series 2, The French Revolution
Lucy Worsley explores the myths that have been told about the French Revolution of 1789.
" Lucy discovers that Marie Antoinette never said 'Let them eat cake'. This was a fib used by later historians to help explain why the revolution happened. Historian Michael Rapport explains how the revolution was not started by starving peasants as many assume but was in fact sparked by a group of lawyers and property owners. Along the way, Lucy finds out that Maximilien Robespierre wasn’t simply a bloodthirsty revolutionary who relished violence and wanted to execute everyone who disagreed with him. In his earlier years, he stood against the death penalty and slavery and fought for the rights of France’s Jewish population. And the guillotine was invented by the revolutionaries not as a brutal punishment but as a more egalitarian and humanitarian form of execution. "
bbc history
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's a very unurban attitude
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