Buildings insurance / subsidence claim help needed
- Thread starter ATOMIC SUPLEX
- Start date
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
This is the argument I would use....but yes I understand your frustration.Insurance companies are supposed to check for fraud by talking to other insurance companies. Not your fault if they can't check their own records..
How about if you asked this question in the money saving expert forum?
I think that is what I would do.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Thank you for the advice.
I have done just now.
Looks like a bit of a long ramble.
I hope someone takes a look.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Well moneysaving expert forum turned up nothing.
Is there anywhere that is advisable to go to 'pre' legal advice? I mean this is before AXA say no.
I'm just worried, because as soon as I do anything I will have played my hand and it will all be on record.
Is there anywhere that is advisable to go to 'pre' legal advice? I mean this is before AXA say no.
I'm just worried, because as soon as I do anything I will have played my hand and it will all be on record.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
You could trying holding your nose and seeing if anyone on Forums - LandlordZONE Forums has suggestions/advice.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Thanks. Will do.
Meant to say that this was just what the Housing Association did when my friends terraced house in a former mining area started to crack up.It was a bit alarming because in one downstairs room the cracks in the wall were admitting light from next door .When I visited again a good while later I was astonished to see that the Housing Association had quite literally papered over the cracks i.e just redecorated .So far as I know the cause of the subsidence has not been investigated .
muscovyduck
Good IT skills and food hygiene competent
Request all your personal data from AXA under the GDPR and when you get it see if you can find the discrepancy. ie you might be able to get a recording of the phonecall where they advised you or some paperwork they hold that says you do have subsidence or something. You don't have to tell them why you are requesting the data. Only way I can think of to build your case without getting them on the defensive
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
I wonder if I should say I am thinking of selling.
If someone came round they might ask about the cracks around the house.
I would have pointed them to the report given by AXA that say most of the cracks are probably just age and slight movement over time, nothing to worry about.
But what about insurance claims?
Well there was one in 2014 but AXA said it was not really subsidence just minor subsidence from a crack in a drain that has since been replaced.
OK, so now they just need written clarification for future insurance that there has not been subsidence in the last 10 years, because my AXA report says subsidence but the claims says no subsidence.
That would be a legitimate inquiry wouldn't it?
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
I had just decided to call them and be honest with what they had said, and what I was worried about, when I realised . . . .
The renewal form I had to fill in also said 'have you made a claim in the last five years'.
They are asking ME to confirm I have made a claim in the last five years even though they have a record of all the claims I have ever made.
Obviously this is an easy one to answer. . . but why are they asking the client to submit information that they can't possibly not have on file?
If it was for new claims I would understand.
Either this is specifically included to trip people up or is just a precaution.
It's doing nothing for my stress levels.
The renewal form I had to fill in also said 'have you made a claim in the last five years'.
They are asking ME to confirm I have made a claim in the last five years even though they have a record of all the claims I have ever made.
Obviously this is an easy one to answer. . . but why are they asking the client to submit information that they can't possibly not have on file?
If it was for new claims I would understand.
Either this is specifically included to trip people up or is just a precaution.
It's doing nothing for my stress levels.
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
Yeah it's shit.
I had to renew my late ma's buildings insurance ( I'd forgotten and it lapsed by a couple of weeks so had to start a new policy from scratch) and they were asking questions that only the person that had bought the house and the insurers would know. In answer to most of the questions I was like
" You have that information already because she has been insured with you since 2017"
And they would only insure the house for Fire, Earthquake and lightning....because its empty.....
ATOMIC SUPLEX — I think you may be getting more worried than you need to. I speak as somebody with 20+ years in the insurance industry, but 0 years in home insurance, so it’s more general advice than specific.
Firstly, insurance operates under the principle of “uberrima fides”, i.e. “utmost good faith”. It requires all parties to give their honest and best endeavours to answer questions properly, but does not expect people to know more than they could reasonably be expected to know.
Secondly, courts operate under the principle that insurance companies are experts in what they do and should take advantage of their expertise, while retail customers are naive and can’t be expected to understand anything complicated.
As I understand it, your details are:
My guess is that AXA will just deal with this. They might take the view that the subsidence box should have been ticked, but they also understand that you are not an expert. More importantly, they know that they have as much knowledge — in fact more knowledge — about the claim as you do, so nothing has been concealed from them. This is what a court will be looking to understand — was there deception involved? There can’t be deception if they have all the facts.
Now, I am not a lawyer and I have no specific expertise in home insurance, so you might want to take more specialist advice. In the meantime, though, please don’t worry about it as I’m pretty sure you will be fine.
Firstly, insurance operates under the principle of “uberrima fides”, i.e. “utmost good faith”. It requires all parties to give their honest and best endeavours to answer questions properly, but does not expect people to know more than they could reasonably be expected to know.
Secondly, courts operate under the principle that insurance companies are experts in what they do and should take advantage of their expertise, while retail customers are naive and can’t be expected to understand anything complicated.
As I understand it, your details are:
- in 2014 you made a claim to AXA, which they investigated in full and paid for.
- You have remained with AXA subsequently. You ticked all boxes on all forms to the best of your ability at the time.
- in 2022, you now have another claim. You are worried that it might be linked to the 2014 claim but you don’t really know.
My guess is that AXA will just deal with this. They might take the view that the subsidence box should have been ticked, but they also understand that you are not an expert. More importantly, they know that they have as much knowledge — in fact more knowledge — about the claim as you do, so nothing has been concealed from them. This is what a court will be looking to understand — was there deception involved? There can’t be deception if they have all the facts.
Now, I am not a lawyer and I have no specific expertise in home insurance, so you might want to take more specialist advice. In the meantime, though, please don’t worry about it as I’m pretty sure you will be fine.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Thank you for this reply. It is quite reassuring. Most helpful. Do you know where I would look to get more specialist advice? The more I look at these cracks (and others around the house) the more I feel this is something I should address sooner rather than later.
The obvious answer regarding the house is a structural engineer, I would think. Regarding your specific insurance issue, though, it would ideally be a specialist insurance lawyer.
However, whilst this isn’t advice as such, I can tell you that in your case I think I would simply report the claim to AXA with all but only the stone-cold facts, leaving out all speculation. Anything you think about 2014 subsidence is just speculation. Anything you think about it being subsidence now is speculation. I would just report the claim that I have cracks and I would like them to sort it out please. The onus is then on them to make any objection about the nature of your policy that they see fit, which you can then respond to. It’s never a good idea to start out arguing against yourself and feeding them the rope that they can hang you with.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Should I not at least connect it to 2014s cracks? Some are in the same area they 'fixed'. In fact I have pointed out all of them before to some degree.
The reason I have not complained since is because they said it was properly just normal properly movement from there on in.
Also, when I first reported it, they made me report it as a subsidence claim before they would come around on that basis (even if it didn't turn out to be). A sort of forced speculation.
I think I will have to try to keep everything in writing this time.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I think you should do no more than report that you have noticed some cracks, and describe the locations. You could send them photos if you want.
It's then up to them whether they want to do anything about them. If in 5 years time they are larger, and it turns out something ought to be done, then they can't hold you responsible for failing to notify.
If in the meantime you are worrying that these cracks are indicative of a significant problem and your insurance company are not taking it seriously, then I guess you could pay a structural engineer to look at them and give you an independent opinion.
But I simply would not worry about it unless the cracks are noticeably getting larger over time. (And it's quite possible this is what a structural engineer's report would say too.)
It's then up to them whether they want to do anything about them. If in 5 years time they are larger, and it turns out something ought to be done, then they can't hold you responsible for failing to notify.
If in the meantime you are worrying that these cracks are indicative of a significant problem and your insurance company are not taking it seriously, then I guess you could pay a structural engineer to look at them and give you an independent opinion.
But I simply would not worry about it unless the cracks are noticeably getting larger over time. (And it's quite possible this is what a structural engineer's report would say too.)
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
If you do decide to talk to a structural engineer I know a really good one in London. Ma used her and she was brilliant.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Oh yes always. . . And this is what I did every time.
I think what I failed to do was keep proper records on my end of what I took and sent.
I think this is what is happening now. The way we left it after the last round of new cracks developed after the second set of plastering and repainting, was that AXA said it was just the house still settling and moving as per old house. I also took new pictures of worrying beams in the attic at the same time, and said I thought some other internal cracks had widened.
Essentially the guy dealing with my claim put my mind at rest at that time. They didn't even send anyone round that time. Just looked at my pictures.
I'm hoping they can't hold me responsible because I did mention all this 8 years ago, and was essentially told to stop worrying.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Maybe I should just pay for one anyway. Where are they based? Is the price reasonable do you know?
I suppose I can phone and find out.
If I pay for a structural engineer before I call AXA, I assume his is something I should disclose to them?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
You should just contact AXA asap and say there are some cracks that you've just noticed and you want them to send someone round.
Don't make it more complicated than it is. If you pay for a strcutural engineer to visit first, that would just be evidence that you decided to withold information from AXA for some reason. Also it won't actually help you at all in any way.
Don't make it more complicated than it is. If you pay for a strcutural engineer to visit first, that would just be evidence that you decided to withold information from AXA for some reason. Also it won't actually help you at all in any way.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
OK, I guess this makes sense, but it's sort of two things combined.
New cracks I have noticed externally matching some internal ones (hidden behind cupboards)
This has led me to question other internal cracks earlier dismissed by AXA which I think (and in some cases I am pretty sure) have gotten have gotten slowly worse.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Inform AXA of the new cracks now. In the unlikely event you end up in a dispute with them and their dismissal of previous cracks ends up being some sort of problem, that's the time to get an independent opinion.
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
I would take teuchter 's advice and see what happens.
However here is the website:
Osborne Edwards - Consulting Structural Engineers in North London UK - Based in Islington
Osborne Edwards Structural Engineers are Structural Engineering Consultants based in Islington, N5, London UK, providing all aspects of structural design and building construction. Services include structural reports, structural design, structural drawings, and consultation.
www.osborne-edwards.com
For the record: this.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
I've just been digging in emails and old photos I sent.
I was relatively thorough.
Looking at the pictures I sent in 2015 after AXA had done their work . .
The cracks have definitely gotten much bigger everywhere that they have appeared. I think this is just something I need to bring up. I don't know if it is anything to be alarmed about or just another patching job. . .
Most of the internal cracks that I was worried about and dismissed by AXA are actually not greatly different, only a little. I'm not massively worried, but they are probably worth mentioning.
The new crack I noticed outside and in are indeed new. I don't appear to have brought them up in my second round of emails and assume they did not exist the first time around.
The naughty bit on my part is that I keep referring to/bringing up 'subsidence' when the Axa /(quest gate) people don't.
Can't actually find any record of emails or photos from the first contact with AXA in 2014, maybe I dealt with them on a work email that no longer exists. My recollection is that most of it all took place on the phone (or round my house).
I am fairly satisfied that I can bring this up as 'worrying cracks in the brickwork' . . .and old previously seen to (by Axa) cracks opening up further. . . . is it something to worry about? Send them some pics.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Just say “i’ve got recent cracks, getting bigger, help”.
If they ask questions, then you can answer them, using old photos if necessary.
If they ask questions, then you can answer them, using old photos if necessary.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Would it not be odd not to mention 2014 and cracks opening up again where they have done work?
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