Brixtons Bazaar
- Thread starter Lovely
- Start date
I have a Princes Trrust Business and sold products at the Brixton Bazaar now it has been closed down i'm left with nowhere to sell my products face to face. All other local options are way to expensive for Princes Trust Businesses. Shops are totally out of the question and the indoor market is also to expensive as the units are similar price to shops and you have to pay a deposit and rent in advance along with business rates etc etc meaning a few thousand pounds up front.
I have had to result in applying to go one waiting lists in other areas, as far as even Camden who seems to have more support for start ups than Lambeth.
I have had to result in applying to go one waiting lists in other areas, as far as even Camden who seems to have more support for start ups than Lambeth.
I'm afraid I agree with a Lambeth council decision for once. I've nothing against Brixton Bazaar, but putting new traders on a prominent Brixton corner for just peak times affects the primary weekday market and existing businesses for the worse. It's setting up competitors that they don't need, giving them a more convenient location if anything - the market's under enough stress without creating another competitor on its doorstep. It seems daft, when there are many pitches available in existing ailing indoor and outdoor markets, to create a range of new stalls in a nearby prominent position
I also think the claims that it somehow controlled the levels of drug dealing slightly laughable. I see the same old faces at KFC corner whether it is on or not. I feel a bit mean for saying that, but I'd urge the council to either integrate Brixton Bazaar with the main market or keep it closed.
I also think the claims that it somehow controlled the levels of drug dealing slightly laughable. I see the same old faces at KFC corner whether it is on or not. I feel a bit mean for saying that, but I'd urge the council to either integrate Brixton Bazaar with the main market or keep it closed.
Ms T
Honey-coloured ramparts
How are cakes, cheese and French sausages competing with the main market though?
Er, loads of nearby businesses, delis included, sell cheese, cakes, coffee and sausages. The idea, for example, that the Bazaar chorizos compare in either quality or taste terms with nearby Portuguese businesses is clearly a little untrue. Equally the West Indian food concession has been able to charge a premium over nearby, better established businesses because its in such a prime, accessible position by the bus stops. Hell, I've bought a bad microwaved pattie from there at a premium because I was too lazy and concerned about missing my bus once, despite better options being nearby. The prices did admittedly seem to drop a little on the last weeks of the Bazaar.
Same goes for the fruit/veg and bakery stalls tbh. There are things which seem fairly unique to the Bazaar, but there's not the right balance imo. And the proposal to move it to the new square seems equally fraught with issues to me.
I do also object to the patently false promotion that the Bazaar somehow helps lessen drug activity on that corner. The same people are still there, whistling and asking away - they're not chased off by endless PCSOs, so it seems unlikely a rag tag bunch of sausage and bread traders will intimidate the dealers away. At best they have a mild dispersal effect to nearby areas.
Same goes for the fruit/veg and bakery stalls tbh. There are things which seem fairly unique to the Bazaar, but there's not the right balance imo. And the proposal to move it to the new square seems equally fraught with issues to me.
I do also object to the patently false promotion that the Bazaar somehow helps lessen drug activity on that corner. The same people are still there, whistling and asking away - they're not chased off by endless PCSOs, so it seems unlikely a rag tag bunch of sausage and bread traders will intimidate the dealers away. At best they have a mild dispersal effect to nearby areas.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I think you raise a fair point about giving such a prime position to total newcomers to the market/retail area but my impression was that they were selling a lot of stuff that really wasn't available elsewhere - vegan fruit breads, veggie salads (I know Honest Foods is just down the road but ?that's about it for this sort of thing?) etc.
I agree with your general point about dealers too but isn't the point that the stalls created a different vibe? Normally the dealers pretty much own that corner, with the stalls there it certainly felt less wind-swept and unfriendly (plenty of people seemed to think so, to judge from this thread) and that's
got to be a good thing on such a prominent and important street corner in Brixton.
urbanspaceman
Well-Known Member
I don't really understand why competition is a bad thing. Is the market there to serve shoppers or for its own sake ? If people prefer to shop at the Bazaar then is that a bad thing ? If the quality of Chorizos for instance is lower (a subjective judgement) then people still have every right to buy them. Is there an generally-held belief here that the Council should control the level of competition among shops, acting as a sort of cartel operator, favouring incumbents over new entrants, just because they have been around a long time ? This sort of protectionism is not victim-free - it inherently and as a matter of policy advantages one group - existing operators - by denying another group - new operators - the chance to make a living.
And might it not be possible that more shops will attract more shoppers, thus benefiting all retailers ?
Also, might not more competition benefit shoppers in terms of quality, price and variety ?
And might it not be possible that more shops will attract more shoppers, thus benefiting all retailers ?
Also, might not more competition benefit shoppers in terms of quality, price and variety ?
It's not really fair competition if the council gives one newer group first dibs on a new pitch, with hints of a move to a brand spanking new central square, whilst failing to reinvest adequately in the decaying fabric of the existing market. Add to that it seems that the Brixton Bazaar pitches are cheaper, more flexible and cherry pick peak times and it must seems that one side holds more advantages.
I'm all for competition, but the whole area would benefit from integrating these schemes together into a more coherent renovated market area. These different, silo'd off markets are competing against other in essence - I doubt many would claim that Bazaar is significant enough to draw customers from elsewhere, and data from the Farmers Market suggest that shoppers come from predominantly local postcodes. It's difficult not to see cannibalisation with that in mind, whereas as a more united market initiative could be more of a draw.
I'm all for competition, but the whole area would benefit from integrating these schemes together into a more coherent renovated market area. These different, silo'd off markets are competing against other in essence - I doubt many would claim that Bazaar is significant enough to draw customers from elsewhere, and data from the Farmers Market suggest that shoppers come from predominantly local postcodes. It's difficult not to see cannibalisation with that in mind, whereas as a more united market initiative could be more of a draw.
The council should be investing in all parts of Brixton market,it should be expanding,also has anyone from other pitches in Brixton market been turn down for a pitch on Brixtons Bazaar.NO
By your logic the new area should stay empty,the fact that we have been shit on should be a cause for worry to you if you really care what happens in Brixton.
Do you know the pitches are cheaper,really know,i mean really,coz they're not,get your facts right.
Yes you can cherry pick times,this helps stalls that can only do 1,2 or 3 stalls a week.this allows a very mixed type of market,there were a few stalls that did all 3 days(we did)but some stalls did once a month,the pottery stall for instance,she would do a sunday,sell most of her stuff and come back when she had made more art.
Most of the stalls were run by locals.the money taken went back into the local area.We all took the Brixton Pound and they were spent here,the few stalls who weren't local changed them up with us and we spent them locally.
Ok data(you seem to have know alot about this sort of stuff,even if some of it is crap.)says that the farmers market attracts mainly local people,did it say how many of them would have made the effort to come into central Brixton on a Sunday if Both markets were not there.No?.
I have a major interest in what happens to Brixtons Bazaar,Do you have any interest in us failing?,coz it seems that you are willing to lie to get your point across.
And in response to an earlier post it was not the job of the market to get rid of the drug dealers,but as someone who lives in the area,it was better on that corner when we were there,people would come to our stall and say that they would not have stopped if all they heard was 'skunk,skunk,skunk'.
Do you really believe that only one type of quailty chorizos should be on sale in Brixton?
Whoa, that's a bit ranty, The information about the cheaper rates for Brixton Bazaar is taken from Lovely's post just a few above yours ('All other local options are way to expensive') and the info about farmers market subscribers from Londonfarmer on the Farmers Market thread, no more than that.
I agree that the council should be investing in all parts of the market, but putting what's effectively a competitor on a prime corner seems to work against that. I have no ill will against the Bazaar traders; indeed I'd far rather they were integrated better into the main market and the area properly renovated and marketed. The current short termism and lack of focus benefits nobody, yourselves sadly included. But if I'm brutal, my preference is to safeguard the future of the permanent businesses of the market rather than add competition without much planning at prime times, potentially cannibalising spend. Things are poised at a knife's edge down there and for all the decline, those daily traders and businesses still provide a valuable service to the bulk of the community and a vital role in shaping the character of the area. I'd love to see Brixton Bazaar supporting that, as I'm sure you would, but there needs to be a more complimentary arrangement imo.
I can assure you that there are far more than one type of quailty chorizo are already available in Brixton, from multiple stockists and in every grade and at very keen prices. It seems a weird thing to pick on.
I agree that the council should be investing in all parts of the market, but putting what's effectively a competitor on a prime corner seems to work against that. I have no ill will against the Bazaar traders; indeed I'd far rather they were integrated better into the main market and the area properly renovated and marketed. The current short termism and lack of focus benefits nobody, yourselves sadly included. But if I'm brutal, my preference is to safeguard the future of the permanent businesses of the market rather than add competition without much planning at prime times, potentially cannibalising spend. Things are poised at a knife's edge down there and for all the decline, those daily traders and businesses still provide a valuable service to the bulk of the community and a vital role in shaping the character of the area. I'd love to see Brixton Bazaar supporting that, as I'm sure you would, but there needs to be a more complimentary arrangement imo.
I can assure you that there are far more than one type of quailty chorizo are already available in Brixton, from multiple stockists and in every grade and at very keen prices. It seems a weird thing to pick on.
Oh i'm ranty,Yes I am,I just had my work taken away.I/we worked really hard to build up the stall I work on,and the good will off of people was amazing.
Lovelys stuff was about how much a full time pitch costs,not about 1 day a week at B.B.sorry you can't see that.
You have always posted against B.B.,so I don't trust what you say about us.You always twist things to fit what you think.Brixton is not in a decline and we were trying add to the whole market.
What is brixton market,where does it start and finish?
You picked on our chorizo.What's your problem?. It was not the best seller we had by a long way.may be you could have a pop at our Wild Boar next time.
Just in defence to my comment about rates, i did clearly state that i was talking about shops and the indoor market which would require people to put up a few thousand pounds for deposits, rent, furnishings etc just to start trade.
If you were to compare the Bazaar to the outside market then i don't think it is cheaper as all equipment is provided so you pay a little extra which is very useful for small businesses with small budgets. The Farmers Market on the other hand is only that cheap because the farmers bring everything, the only thing provided to them is the concrete they stand on.
I do understand some of the points you are making but i do not think the owners of Brixtons Bazaar have a duty to try and solve the problems with Brixton Market. However i do agree with you that the Bazaar should 'support shaping the character of the area' which i believed they were already doing by offering the local community ADDITIONAL products and attracting people from other areas to visit Brixton. On the last day of the Bazaar i personally had two ladies from America (total strangers may i add) come to brixton to visit my stall and they also took pictures. The traders at the Bazaar were there to be permanent traders of Brixton and most are permanent residents of Brixton/Lambeth also.
Someone mentioned the stall selling patties, i have never brought one so i don't know how they tasted but i do eat patties from 1st choice bakery which i walked to even when the bazaar was open. I went out my way because they taste good, the shop is clean, so i keep coming back. This is what you call business if you are good your customers will return and follow you even if you change location.
Some of our customers never ever shop in the market with some only coming to Brixton to buy from our stalls. My product range is not available in Brixton at all you would need to go to central London to find the same selection, so like most of the other stalls i am selling a unique product in Brixton.
I agree the council needs to do more work to help the market but even if they were to spend a million pounds on marketing and had thousands of people visit will the selection and presentation of the stalls and shops in the market be good enough to want them to buy and come back? If you go to Franco Manco Pizza Shop on a Saturday the queue goes on forever WHY? Because what they have to offer is good and presented well, no matter where he is people will come (even next to the smelly fish guy lol). My point is Brixton Bazaar does not actually take customers away from the other businesses any more than McDonald's or KFC does. To be harsh a little competition may not be such a bad idea after all because maybe then Brixton businesses may start to up their standards (like they have in Clapham). They couldn't of been that good in the first place as the local residents would not of ventured out of the area to buy elsewhere long before the bazaar had even started.
Why is no one complaining about the London Farmers Market anyway, are they not effecting the local trade? They actually sell mainly products you can get in the market already e.g salad, vegetables, meat.
We can not stop new businesses starting up and developing because a few shops are having problems that's wrong because if the tables were turned it would be a different story. We are actually helping unemployment in the area just by getting up and working.
While they are at it why don't they request Tesco to close also because they are definitely taking customers away customers from the market with their cheaper meat and vegetables.
I'm not having a go as everyone is entitled to their opinions but i don't agree in the way it has all been handled.
This so true! Business is actually all about competition and challenges it adds to the fun and keeps you on your toes. Business is not supposed to be laid back, easy and run the same every year. If any business owner thinks this is the case then they are most likely in the wrong profession.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
You can get a pitch in the outdoor market on Electric Avenue, Popes Road, or Brixton Station Road on a daily basis, and they're not expensive.
timothysutton1
Brixton resident.
I'm all for a bit of a shake up with Brixton Market, it has been stagnating for too long (maybe intentionally). Why aren't parts of it open on Sundays? I am sure Franco Manca would appreciate the business.
Brixton Bazaar was not the ideal solution, but at least it was something new. (There is the current "Space Savers" experiment at the back of the market, but it's not visible from the high street so I have my doubts on its impact.)
If Lambeth and the Brixton Market owners are serious about saving the place they need to make some radical decisions soon.
Good on BB for having a go, their efforts should be encouraged.
Brixton Bazaar was not the ideal solution, but at least it was something new. (There is the current "Space Savers" experiment at the back of the market, but it's not visible from the high street so I have my doubts on its impact.)
If Lambeth and the Brixton Market owners are serious about saving the place they need to make some radical decisions soon.
Good on BB for having a go, their efforts should be encouraged.
That's my indirect point though. It doesn't seem bigger and more bustling now - there are three sites now, at different times and even days and hours of opening. Dispersal is the order of the day, with the potential to get worse if things are moved further away to the market square. You've got three smallish markets working against each other to a degree, dilution rather than convincing, consolidated addition.
Equally the lofty theory of healthy fair competition is a moot point when location is such a vital draw for business. Location, location, location. And one new site is on resurfaced prime corner directly by the busiest bus routes, a virtual terminus that encourages snap purchases whilst waiting for buses, with a brand new spanking prime pedestrianised square potentially on offer. The kind of site that usually commands an understandable premium. The other's down a badly maintained road and in decaying indoor premises needing investment. The whole thing needs to be better balanced out and properly planned for, to benefit the wider Brixton business community as a whole - there's a pressing need to make the sites working together as a whole, rather than disparate entities. Everyone's fucked over by short termism and Council dithering, nobody feeling safe or properly supported. For once I'm in agreement with Timothy above in the belief that we need more radical solutions than papering over the cracks with convenient new short term setups.
And no, of course I wouldn't support a supermarket on that prime corner either.
timothysutton1
Brixton resident.
RushcroftRoader
Well-Known Member
Totally agree! And suspect that people who might come to Brixton for the BAzaar might spend money in the market as well.
Those curry lamb burgers that were for sale in the bazaar were ace!!
With the greatest of respect, do you honestly believe that anyone made a special trip to the area for Brixton Bazaar? Really unlikely imo, especially given that the nearby Farmers Market confirmed that 'all' visitors opting onto their email newsletter came from local postcodes.I'd be interested in seeing anything which disproved this, but the logic does seem against the idea of a handful of stalls pulling in punters from other well established town areas.
Equally - and this is a moot point - the Bazaar is open only briefly at the same times as the main market, so short of an organised shopper on Saturday day alone it's likely to be an either/or decision. As a general point, there's no time when all 3 markets are open in Brixton at the same time, which seemed a lost opportunity - hence the description of them as working against each other to a large extent elsewhere. You can hardly suggest that cakes and cheese aren't already available in the host of other local shops, from delis through to cafes, in the nearby area - it's this balance between bringing in new shoppers and cannibalising existing local spend which is perhaps most the most vital issue.
Equally - and this is a moot point - the Bazaar is open only briefly at the same times as the main market, so short of an organised shopper on Saturday day alone it's likely to be an either/or decision. As a general point, there's no time when all 3 markets are open in Brixton at the same time, which seemed a lost opportunity - hence the description of them as working against each other to a large extent elsewhere. You can hardly suggest that cakes and cheese aren't already available in the host of other local shops, from delis through to cafes, in the nearby area - it's this balance between bringing in new shoppers and cannibalising existing local spend which is perhaps most the most vital issue.
Ms T
Honey-coloured ramparts
I think tarannau does have a point. I was chatting to one of the people who's taken over a shop in Brixton Village the other day, and the main problem they have is that it's completely dead during the week. Even WildCaper in the other bit of the covered market, which has had a fair bit of publicity off the back of Franco Manca, has not been able to survive as a deli and has become a café. They are trying to regenerate Brixton Village by giving free rent for three months, but I wonder how many will survive after that period of grace.
None of this should really matter as far as I know. The council isn't in the job of regulating the free-market or calculating the impact of one trader on another (you can argue that they should, but it isn't in their current job description).
On the subject of the covered markets, nice blog post here asking for local support: http://spacemakers.org.uk/2010/01/space-makers-in-brixton-how-are-we-doing/
On the subject of the covered markets, nice blog post here asking for local support: http://spacemakers.org.uk/2010/01/space-makers-in-brixton-how-are-we-doing/
This isn't the free market though, is it? Generally pavements aren't turned over to traders at peak times by the council, nor does Brixton have a history of regular businesses on Windrush Square.
If anything there's plenty of space for open competition in the existing structure of the market. It seems slightly weird and counterproductive to start opening up new areas when there's capacity and a need for new blood in existing facilities.
If anything there's plenty of space for open competition in the existing structure of the market. It seems slightly weird and counterproductive to start opening up new areas when there's capacity and a need for new blood in existing facilities.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
I reckon the specialist coffee shop is in with a very good chance.
They're not all *intended* to survive. Some are temporary art projects, some popup shops (and they were just in time for Xmas and New Year!), and some are business start-ups.
Ms T
Honey-coloured ramparts
Maybe not, but there are still a lot of empty shops in there, which is a shame, and the existing businesses aren't necessarily thriving either.
Ms T
Honey-coloured ramparts
We haven't really had a big open space on Windrush Square before, have we? I think putting part of the market there would be an excellent use of a space which could easily become a haven for drug dealers.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Yes, there are; and no, they aren't.
London Associated Properties (owners of Granville Arcade aka Brixton Village) could do a lot more.
But it's a good thing that they're working with Space Makers on the UK's largest empty shops project, and I think we can recognise that!
