Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[newbie]

Get the timing right, though, and take a leaf out of the playbook.

This is (still) on Lambeth's entirely unloaded 'Have Your Say' page, with a click through for a bigger version. It shows the roundabout on Palace Road during roadworks. Undeniably stuff like that happens, but anyone who uses that stretch knows that it's nothing like representative of normal conditions, which might be why Mr hi vis is directing traffic. It sets the tone for the conversation to produce the desired outcome though.


What I'm saying is, choose your photographic evidence for maximum hyperbolic impact and don't worry about minor details like trying to be reasonable.

 

[newbie]

I went through the Shakespeare road one yesterday evening and saw two cars go straight through it.

Have Lambeth said anything about a period of grace before fines start to be issued? Most new introductions seem to have that. I'm just wondering how far intentionally create frustration is being pushed.

 

[snowy_again]

I’ve read the grace period somewhere - probably one of Claire Holland’s tweets. Warning letters for a couple of weeks and then fines from memory - will try to hunt it out.

Railton Road gate - they’ve put up the posts for the cameras etc but done nothing else

 

[thebackrow]

I went through the Shakespeare road one yesterday evening and saw two cars go straight through it.

I've went through this morning on my way out and back. Seemed to be about 50/50 at the moment - half turning back and the others having a peer around, not being able to see any cameras and going through anyway. That will soon stop when the camera enforcement starts - likewise the ones on St Mathews Road. But it already seemed much quieter than a few weeks ago at the same time

The people driving through do give a clear indication of why the 'just share the road' argument is a nonstarter - drivers who ignore road closure signs probably don't think speed limits apply to them and close pass cyclists as well. The uptick in Police speed enforcement over lockdown shows that many drivers who break one law also break others so they've picked up loads of illegally modified vehicles, drivers without insurance, drug driving etc etc

The skips are bloody noisy when they leave - pretty sure those chains are supposed to have sleeves on to stop them clanking like that.

Can understand why the residents would want rid of the site. But it's also a source of unskilled working class employment and if it goes house prices are sure to rise (helped by the skip site being replaced by luxury flats with a minimum allocation of 'affordable' housing) . Also at the north end there was an older lady out with a dustpan and broom clearing up some litter along the fence to the railway. I'm not sure of the U75 approved thoughts on this - wanting your street to be clean and not covered in shit - that's gentrification isn't? Same as wanting not to live opposite an industrial site?

 

[Rushy]

The skips are bloody noisy when they leave - pretty sure those chains are supposed to have sleeves on to stop them clanking like that.

Remarkably they are not. Only one major company - O'Donovan - uses them as standard that I know of.

O’Donovan reduces noise levels by 20% with skip chain covers - UPDATED

London construction and demolition waste management firm O’Donovan Waste Disposal has introduced skip chain covers to its fleet of skip lorries, resulting in a 20% decibel reduction in noise levels.

www.transportengineer.org.uk

They reduce the noise from 85dB to 65dB which is a lot more than it sounds (as I understand it, 10db is a doubling in noise level so 85 is roughly 4x louder than 65dB). So the headline underplays the improvement.


It costs about £80 to fit a lorry. I actually offered to pay for them to be fitted to two trucks which park close to my home and leave very early in the morning but the owners were not interested. Should be compulsory in London.

 

[newbie]

I've went through this morning on my way out and back. Seemed to be about 50/50 at the moment - half turning back and the others having a peer around, not being able to see any cameras and going through anyway. That will soon stop when the camera enforcement starts - likewise the ones on St Mathews Road. But it already seemed much quieter than a few weeks ago at the same time

The people driving through do give a clear indication of why the 'just share the road' argument is a nonstarter - drivers who ignore road closure signs probably don't think speed limits apply to them and close pass cyclists as well. The uptick in Police speed enforcement over lockdown shows that many drivers who break one law also break others so they've picked up loads of illegally modified vehicles, drivers without insurance, drug driving etc etc

The skips are bloody noisy when they leave - pretty sure those chains are supposed to have sleeves on to stop them clanking like that.

Can understand why the residents would want rid of the site. But it's also a source of unskilled working class employment and if it goes house prices are sure to rise (sure to be replaced with luxury flats with a minimum allocation of 'affordable' housing) . Also at the north end there was an older lady out with a dustpan and broom clearing up some litter along the fence to the railway. I'm don't know what I'm meant to think - wanting your street to be clean and not covered in shit - that's gentrification isn't? Same as wanting not to live opposite an industrial site?

I'm loving the last para ....



I also went to check out Shakespeare Road. So I'm pedalling along enjoying the peace and quiet, thinking about the benefits of the scheme, when someone hurtled past me, legs whirling. To my shame I burst out laughing as I twigged that this has created the longest, widest and straightest carfree, flat, safe racetrack for miles around. The perfect place for stretching lycra clad legs and for timetrials or racing... There's even a decent circuit for those prepared to risk the broken glass in the foottunnel.

The shame is because I'm well aware that a couple of the pins on the map were plaintively pointing out that without SR the only way out of that triangle is onto CHL. They were ignored, of course.

I would be very grateful for notification if anyone spots resident complaints about bikes (pedal, motorbike, electric or indeed scooter, skateboard, gokart...) zooming along there far too fast. Not that there's likely to be a glossy consultation about the outcomes, so i dunno where such complaints might be posted.

 

[Winot]

Yes there probably will be complaints about cyclists going too fast, from the same people that complain about cyclists holding them up when they are in their cars.

 

[teuchter]

I'm loving the last para ....



I also went to check out Shakespeare Road. So I'm pedalling along enjoying the peace and quiet, thinking about the benefits of the scheme, when someone hurtled past me, legs whirling. To my shame I burst out laughing as I twigged that this has created the longest, widest and straightest carfree, flat, safe racetrack for miles around. The perfect place for stretching lycra clad legs and for timetrials or racing... There's even a decent circuit for those prepared to risk the broken glass in the foottunnel.

The shame is because I'm well aware that a couple of the pins on the map were plaintively pointing out that without SR the only way out of that triangle is onto CHL. They were ignored, of course.

I would be very grateful for notification if anyone spots resident complaints about bikes (pedal, motorbike, electric or indeed scooter, skateboard, gokart...) zooming along there far too fast. Not that there's likely to be a glossy consultation about the outcomes, so i dunno where such complaints might be posted.

I'm not sure what your point is - that making it into an exceptionally safe road is going to make things worse for residents because it will become more dangerous for them, because they will get run over by cyclists instead of cars, which is in some way worse, maybe because of the way the cyclists are clothed?

(And what triangle do you mean?)

 

[newbie]

I'm not sure what your point is - that making it into an exceptionally safe road is going to make things worse for residents because it will become more dangerous for them, because they will get run over by cyclists instead of cars, which is in some way worse, maybe because of the way the cyclists are clothed?

(And what triangle do you mean?)

point? it's more of an observation but I suppose there's something about irony and unintended consequences. I didn't say anything about 'more dangerous' although I had no idea anyone was approaching very fast from behind me, but it's never struck me as an especially dangerous bit of road. The triangle formed by the railways.

 

[snowy_again]

I'm loving the last para ....



I also went to check out Shakespeare Road. So I'm pedalling along enjoying the peace and quiet, thinking about the benefits of the scheme, when someone hurtled past me, legs whirling. To my shame I burst out laughing as I twigged that this has created the longest, widest and straightest carfree, flat, safe racetrack for miles around. The perfect place for stretching lycra clad legs and for timetrials or racing... There's even a decent circuit for those prepared to risk the broken glass in the foottunnel.

The shame is because I'm well aware that a couple of the pins on the map were plaintively pointing out that without SR the only way out of that triangle is onto CHL. They were ignored, of course.

I would be very grateful for notification if anyone spots resident complaints about bikes (pedal, motorbike, electric or indeed scooter, skateboard, gokart...) zooming along there far too fast. Not that there's likely to be a glossy consultation about the outcomes, so i dunno where such complaints might be posted.

If only there was something to prevent that - like speed bumps or a speed table.

London’s most popular training circuit is Regents Park as you can do laps (which make far more sense than a straight but short 1.2km SR) and most importantly it’s good, smooth, flat, speed bump free tarmac generally free from glass and other road debris with less traffic.

None of those characteristics are there in Shakespeare Road so I don’t think you need to worry about it turning into a race track. Also - speed limits don’t apply to cycles.

Also idiots are idiots whether they are on a cycle, motorbike or car.

 

[teuchter]

Well, for a motor vehicle, without shakespeare road being closed at its S end the only way out of Shakespeare road is via CHL. For the remainder of the triangle, you have to use CHL to get to Shakespeare Rd whether or not it's closed off.

If you're not in a motor vehicle, the your exit points from the triangle are exactly the same with or without the modal gate.

 

[thebackrow]

None of those characteristics are there in Shakespeare Road so I don’t think you need to worry about it turning into a race track. Also - speed limits don’t apply to cycles.
Also idiots are idiots whether they are on a cycle, motorbike or car.

and by definition the sort of sports cyclists Newbie is suddenly worried about are already happy to ride on the road - if Shakespeare was part of the perfect training run they'd be on it now, 3600 vehicles a day or not. The Sunday club riders who head out to Kent have to put up with a lot worse that Shakespeare.

 

[co-op]

There is a large amount of social housing, HA properties and coop owned homes in Herne Hill too.

Also quite a large group of house-owners who bought their houses or flats back in the 70s, 80s and 90s when it was genuinely one of the cheapest places to buy in London and who don't fit the wealthy incomers group at all. I used to canvass for Labour and Green parties at different times in the area (not something I'd bother do now) and I was always quite surprised at some of the people who were owners - people doing working class jobs who'd bought their own homes.

 

[newbie]

of course I recognise that but I don't think it changes anything I've said does it? In terms of attitudes and pins on maps about transport policy the exact nature and length of housing tenure isn't a great determinant is it? Week by week income is obviously a consideration, but so many other factors affect mobility that social, co-op or private tenants and long- and short-term owner occupiers aren't likely to be that divergent in their views about their own street, are they? However, the material rewards are to be spread unevenly, rewarding owner occupiers and landlords far more than tenants. I'm not sure it matters whether someone has owned their home (or been a landlord) for 40 years or 4, they still stand stand to gain as insiders where similar people in a similar position in a similar but non-designated area simply don't benefit in the same way.

 

[Gramsci]

As friendofdorothy brought up consultation on Herne Hiill thread. ( the discussion of this is going over several threads. Which makes it difficult without repeating oneself.) I looked up the online consultation which runs on the "commonplace" platfrom.

Commonplace works for developers and public authorities. It provides a service platform to aid consultation.

More than just that though it says it can help overcome public resistance to schemes planned by private developers or a Council.

This is where it moves from a neutral service platform for comments to a service that aids overcoming resistance from Joe Public.

Its a technocratic approach that is an aid for senior decision makes.

It has case studies from public and private sector.

From the one on the Walthamstow Mini Holland it says this:

This was beneficial because it prevented any campaigning group from gaining traction.Commonplace enabled the Council’s leaders to understand
the extent of support and objection, beyond headline-grabbing actions and petitions. This made it possible to fine-tune plans to meet specific local objections
and observations, rather than getting swept into a war of attrition with vocal protest group.......A strategic tool for senior decision makers.Not only did the project team use Commonplace, but senior decision-makers in the Council, including the deputy leader, also used the analytics to make strategic decisions.

Customer Stories - Commonplace

Meet some of our customers and discover the impact of using Commonplace has made.

www.commonplace.is

The private developer case study was to aid a developer that has planned a high tower which had got a lot of local opposition.

So this is not a straightforward platforn that one can comment on. The organisation using it can access the "analytic" "dashboard".

So Commonplace service is to help manage dissent.

Particulary of the traditional kind found in local democracy - petitions, lobby groups, action groups.

Online consultation is going to increase but its not a neutral tool.

Action groups, petitions and lobby groups require people working together. Its part of local democracy.

What a platform like commonplace does is individualise politics. Its a hollowing out of democracy.

I can see why it could appeal to senior officers/ senior Council leaders. Its technocratic approach to local democracy. One of managing local populations.

 

[Rushy]

As friendofdorothy brought up consultation on Herne Hiill thread. ( the discussion of this is going over several threads. Which makes it difficult without repeating oneself.) I looked up the online consultation which runs on the "commonplace" platfrom.

Commonplace works for developers and public authorities. It provides a service platform to aid consultation.

More than just that though it says it can help overcome public resistance to schemes planned by private developers or a Council.

This is where it moves from a neutral service platform for comments to a service that aids overcoming resistance from Joe Public.

Its a technocratic approach that is an aid for senior decision makes.

It has case studies from public and private sector.

From the one on the Walthamstow Mini Holland it says this:

Customer Stories - Commonplace

Meet some of our customers and discover the impact of using Commonplace has made.

www.commonplace.is

The private developer case study was to aid a developer that has planned a high tower which had got a lot of local opposition.

So this is not a straightforward platforn that one can comment on. The organisation using it can access the "analytic" "dashboard".

So Commonplace service is to help manage dissent.

Particulary of the traditional kind found in local democracy - petitions, lobby groups, action groups.

Online consultation is going to increase but its not a neutral tool.

Action groups, petitions and lobby groups require people working together. Its part of local democracy.

What a platform like commonplace does is individualise politics. Its a hollowing out of democracy.

I can see why it could appeal to senior officers/ senior Council leaders. Its technocratic approach to local democracy. One of managing local populations.

From what I have seen it is terribly cluncky and, more so, it is only effective if people know about it and it is clear what is being consulted on. That said, I have no problem with the general principle of reducing resistance by fine tuning plans to overcome objections and observations. That, to my mind, is the whole purpose of consultation and how consent is achieved.

 

[newbie]

Interesting, I should have realised this was going on across other threads but I don't think I'm obsessive enough to start looking them out. Are Facebook and Twitter buzzing too?

Much earlier in this one I read around various Lambeth/Commonplace consultations and came to the conclusion they're deliberately engineered to produce or reinforce a desired policy outcome. The Palace Road picture is just an example of how blatant that is.

Whether that amounts to legitimate fine tuning or stacking the deck is a matter of perspective, I suppose. Had the council deployed similar tactics over, eg closure of libraries or monetising the parks I suspect there'd be howls of outrage, often from the very people who are happy to promote BLN results they agree with.

Even so, now that people not on U75 or the LambethCyclists mailing list or whatever are commenting on the Railton scheme, it seems I'm not the only one prepared to veer off message. A pin from someone saying, among other well considered things, that they'd just bought an electric car and are now the wrong side of modal gates from any charging points has been endorsed 28 times, and loads of other red pins have sprouted with plenty of likes.

For the avoidance of doubt- none are from me, I'm not a campaigner, it's not my patch, I haven't commented or liked at all. Can the evangelists say the same?

Consultation by counting likes is pretty silly anyway, unless we the public get to see the detail in the database- how many logins go round liking every green or red pin, how many pins mention anything other than traffic in one specific street (and whether the IP address is actually located in that street), and so on. Only the technocrats see that level of detail sfaik, only the politicians see their distillation of the results. The rest of us have to click pin after pin to try to build up an impression.

 

[Rushy]

Much earlier in this one I read around various Lambeth/Commonplace consultations and came to the conclusion they're deliberately engineered to produce or reinforce a desired policy outcome. The Palace Road picture is just an example of how blatant that is.

Whether that amounts to legitimate fine tuning or stacking the deck is a matter of perspective, I suppose. Had the council deployed similar tactics over, eg closure of libraries or monetising the parks I suspect there'd be howls of outrage, often from the very people who are happy to promote BLN results they agree with.

You are absolutely right - the surveys are heavily loaded. The surveys themselves should not be used to fine tune responses but that is exactly what is being done here.

Consultations should be designed to achieve broad and genuine understanding of a neighbourhood's reaction to a proposal. I have no problem then with the responses being used to fine tune the proposal itself in order to deal with those issues.

 

[newbie]

Even so, some of the pins are fascinating, like the SE24 residents used to a 5 minute journey by car to their local center at HH now facing 20 mins each way; it's a shame there no way of commenting directly on such pins, or the evangelists on this thread could explain that preventing them doing that by increasing frustration is the explicit aim, not some sort of byproduct. I'm sure that would go down well, but I guess heads are being kept down. There's one that claims the headteacher of Evelyn Grace didn't know about the SR gates and, more predictedably, phrases like 'more affluent Poets Corner' and 'taking away my freedom of choice' are being deployed. e2a 'virtual gated community for a privileged few'

Of course, as well as presenting the cover for imposing the scheme, the virus also provides the perfect excuse to not hold public meetings, a time honoured form of consultation where anyone can turn up- the horror! It's easy to ignore me on here saying that the intention to to reproduce the suburbs, keep 'vibrant' at bay and improve conditions for precious children who will be whisked away to real 'burbs before they really have to mix with kids from the estates at secondary school. Harder to ignore or dismiss in person in a meeting that doesn't have anything like such a predictable outcome.

 

[snowy_again]

I’m confused by these people driving five minutes to Herne Hill where most of the area is CPZ. Where do they park?

 

[newbie]

Sainsburys at a guess, or outside a school? I dunno There's no way to hold a conversation on there.

 

[Rushy]

it's a shame there no way of commenting directly on such pins,

Some of the angrier pins read like they are quoting other pins. It's very confusing!

 

[snowy_again]

And again - under the act they don’t need to do ANY consultation to implement the LTN only to make it permanent.

The commonplace site is full of anti remarks - and you can see the clear split of opinions literally across the tracks.

One answer seems to be to open the Shakespeare modal gate to residents and blue badge holders only via ANPR but that’s probably quite complicated

 

[newbie]

And again - under the act they don’t need to do ANY consultation to implement the LTN only to make it permanent.

The commonplace site is full of anti remarks - and you can see the clear split of opinions literally across the tracks.

who'd of thought! It's almost like people perceive themselves to be winners or losers.

One answer seems to be to open the Shakespeare modal gate to residents and blue badge holders only via ANPR but that’s probably quite complicated

Sure, but that defeats the object, because it enables people to make the 5 minute journeys that are so strongly disapproved of, while reducing 20 min journeys that are an inevitable consequence. It's also the thin end of an unattractive wedge, as more and more areas are made impermeable, more and more people will plead for special case exemption, and that will never do. Or maybe it will, as rewarding insiders to the detriment of outsiders is so central, perhaps all modal gates will be programmed to allow area residents through while barring all others. I can see Lambeth getting that working without any problems at all.

 

[newbie]

Some of the angrier pins read like they are quoting other pins. It's very confusing!

That was the case in the original consultations as well. Maybe they do, or perhaps restate their own point, we can't tell. I'm less inclined to think that the recent ones quote from a script than previously,

 

[Rushy]

That was the case in the original consultations as well. Maybe they do, or perhaps restate their own point, we can't tell. I'm less inclined to think that the recent ones quote from a script than previously,

I mean ones like this:

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​

 

[newbie]

Sainsburys at a guess, or outside a school?

Also of course HH is a gateway to other places, so 5 mins to HH en route to somewhere much further away.

At the moment Google maps is still showing all car routes from SRN to eg Streatham via the bridge, because obviously it'd be bonkers to go via LJ. Currently 20-23 minutes. I'd be massively surprised to discover anyone at Lambeth has a computer designed to scrape comparison journey times before and after the fines are in operation, for more objective measurement of outcomes than angry frothing

 

[newbie]

I mean ones like this:

don't agree. They have a perfect right to a view.

 

[snowy_again]

I mean ones like this:

I’m starting to recognise the posters by their comments on commonplace and social media. Hat person was outraged they couldn’t drive from poets corner where they live to heir mums house in Shakespeare

 

[teuchter]

the intention to to reproduce the suburbs, keep 'vibrant' at bay and improve conditions for precious children who will be whisked away to real 'burbs before they really have to mix with kids from the estates at secondary school.

You're cranking up the provocation levels a little higher today, I see.