Brixton features in 4 page feature in Qantas flight magazine

[Pickman's model]

lord 'elp us

that's the sort of attitude i like to see.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

that's the sort of attitude i like to see.

 

[editor]

But as you admit the Brixton forum is scary toxic, what's the solution?

The same as it's always been: people have to stop dragging discussions down into personal point-scoring bunfests. Just look how this thread got diverted. My choice of phone - or even me talking about a phone on a different forum - was seen as something that it was OK to bring up in a discussion about tourism in Brixton. That kind of shit has to stop.

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[aka]

20 pages.

I thought calling this at 20, was a bit OTT.

No so sure now.

 

[Winot]

If brexit means 100s of k less people migrating to uk each year, I'm out. In the midst of a housing crisis, unsure of the logic of 100s of k each year tp add to the chase.

It won't. Almost half of net migration is from outside the EU. We let them in because we want/need them. If we leave the EU then we would still let a significant proportion of those people from the EU in.

 

[Gramsci]

Went back to look at earlier posts. I think two links that editor put up in #21 have been overlooked.

Is Banning Tourists the Solution to Gentrification?

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/when-new-york-branded-its-way-out-of-crisis/?_r=0

The second one ( found a new link as the one in Eds post didn’t work) looks at the work of a sociologist Greenberg:

I’m not saying that image makeovers are bad per se. I think it’s fine for cities to try to market themselves. But I would say the branding of New York City, insofar as it combined market-centered policies with that image-making, has had negative effects on the diversity and the affordability of the city; the dynamic mix of the economic base of the city; and the resilience of the city in response to crisis, because it’s so dependent now on finance, real estate and tourism.

The main thrust of Dr. Greenberg’s argument is descriptive, but her book does not view the new branding with an uncritical eye. Indeed, she argues that the “rebound” New York City has experienced in the last 15 or so years has been “driven and enjoyed” mainly by “local business elites, out-of-towners and recent transplants,” and not by longtime, working-class residents or the poor. She writes:

A new and hegemonic vision of New York was being produced — one that seemed, finally, to eclipse the apocalyptic image of the city sinking into the sea that had emerged over the previous decade. It was a vision so convincing and enticing that it could be embraced by tourists, celebrated by the media, upheld as a symbol for the nation, and used to distract attention from the city’s still very real and unabating problems.

Fits in with the Qantas article. To me this this branding of New York is similar to what is done in the Qantas article in relation to Brixton. Its also the way the Nu Labour Council market Brixton.

To qualify my past post that the article is not journalism I would say its unfortunately the way journalism has gone. I have met people like her who wrote this piece. They believe in what they do and they are bright. Its that journalism is now a mixture of advertising, PR and social comment. Its relentlessly upbeat and positive. As in New York the unabating problems are swept under the carpet.

 

[Saul Goodman]

How hard can it be for some people to accept that this whole gentrification thing is fucking it up for anyone who isn't part of the the upper echelon?

Conversely, we scum should probably resign ourselves to the fact that there's fuck all we can do about it

 

[leanderman]

It won't. Almost half of net migration is from outside the EU. We let them in because we want/need them. If we leave the EU then we would still let a significant proportion of those people from the EU in.

It's worth noting that the population projections are based on annual net migration falling to 180,000 within five years. But this figure has just risen to 333,000.

So London seems likely to grow even faster than projected.

 

[Gramsci]

It won't. Almost half of net migration is from outside the EU. We let them in because we want/need them. If we leave the EU then we would still let a significant proportion of those people from the EU in.

Im all for people to move freely on principle. To defend BigMoaner the "we" needs qualifying. There are winners and losers within a (Thatcherite) Capitalist society as in the UK. The biggest defenders of migration is business. They want a pool of cheap labour. And those who think leaving EU will stop this are deluding themselves. (Its what I hear a lot).The issue is to make sure all - recent migrants and those born here - all have decent employment rights and pay.

Some business owners want out of EU. A revealing comment I heard from one is that he wanted out of EU because all the "red tape" and rights for workers was onerous on his business. He did , however, want free movement of labour to be kept. He was a large farm owner who used East Europeans as cheap labour.

I was listening to an economist talking about the refugees. He was asked why they do not stay in France and try to get here. From an economists point of view France has a regulated labour market. The pull factor is that the UK has a flexible labour market. In blunt language here its the race to the bottom in terms of pay and conditions. That , not yet, happens in France so its not so easy for them to get work in the economy. To add the French are busy burning police cars and stopping oil reaching petrol stations in opposition to the governments proposed reforms to labour market. Good old French.

 

[Gramsci]

How hard can it be for some people to accept that this whole gentrification thing is fucking it up for anyone who isn't part of the the upper echelon?

Very hard for some- on seeing some of the posts here.

 

[Saul Goodman]

The lack of integration and the creation of a two-tier Brixton, firmly divided along money lines, is what depresses me most about the recent changes.

The two-tier problem won't last long. The lower paid people who are currently working in Brixton will soon be priced out of the rental market, then your burgers will be costing 25 quid a pop, and the eternal cunt-chain will widen, until peak-cunt is reached and breached, and people get wise to this bullshit.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Some business owners want out of EU. A revealing comment I heard from one is that he wanted out of EU because all the "red tape" and rights for workers was onerous on his business. He did , however, want free movement of labour to be kept. He was a large farm owner who used East Europeans as cheap labour.

I know a lot of people in various industries in England, and I hear the same bullshit dished out on a daily basis. They don't want to be part of the EU, because that entails providing decent working conditions and a minimum wage, yet they want free movement of goods within the EU, in order to maximise their profits. The same people outsource a lot of work to China, for obvious reasons, and they're always crying about how little money they have, yet they always seem to be living in detached houses in 'nice' areas, with a very nice car on the drive for every member of the household. These people should either be lined up and shot or sent to work in their beloved factories in China.

 

[Ms T]

I was listening to an economist talking about the refugees. He was asked why they do not stay in France and try to get here. From an economists point of view France has a regulated labour market. The pull factor is that the UK has a flexible labour market. In blunt language here its the race to the bottom in terms of pay and conditions. That , not yet, happens in France so its not so easy for them to get work in the economy. To add the French are busy burning police cars and stopping oil reaching petrol stations in opposition to the governments proposed reforms to labour market. Good old French.

Although there are winners and losers in the French labour market too. It's great if you're older with a job. But youth unemployment is relatively high, at nearly 25%, compared to around half that level in the UK. In fact it's fair to say that high levels of youth unemployment are partly what's driving migration from the EU. That's the reason many retail and catering staff in London are from Spain and Italy.

 

[Winot]

How hard can it be for some people to accept that this whole gentrification thing is fucking it up for anyone who isn't part of the the upper echelon?

I haven't seen anyone on this thread saying otherwise. In fact hendo explicitly recognised the problems that gentrification causes.

The main argument (as ever) has been to do with whether the Qantas article is symptom or cause of gentrification.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

How about a radical solution - remove the Brixton forum from Urban completely and expand it as a standalone set of forums on Buzz?

 

[leanderman]

I haven't seen anyone on this thread saying otherwise. In fact hendo explicitly recognised the problems that gentrification causes.

The main argument (as ever) has been to do with whether the Qantas article is symptom or cause of gentrification.

Gentrification itself is a symptom. A symptom, for example, of taxation policies that encourage landlordery, driving up rents and pushing out the less well-off. Or a symptom of housing policies that have failed to build enough affordable homes.

 

[Manter]

i've blathered on about this before, but i always think the local schools are interesting when it comes to gentrification. there are always a good few exceptions, but the schools in these gentrified areas still are massively working class. it's that sort of "edgy when it suits us, but it's too edgy for my kids thank you very much" that gets on my tits, that division, that inequality, that using an area as a symbol of status and "coolness" but fleeing it just when you could really be part of the community by, ya know, raising a child in the local schools and the area. when schools are truly reflective of the communities they find themselves in, my respect for these wealthy incommers will double. i know people leave an area for a variety of reasons when they have kids, but, trust me, a great deal of these yuppies wouldn't send their dog to the local school, let alone entertain it for their darling off spring.

You're missing the basic timing and economics though. If hip young things with plenty of disposable income move into an area and gentrify it, they are about ten years from having kids of school age.

 

[BigMoaner]

You're missing the basic timing and economics though. If hip young things with plenty of disposable income move into an area and gentrify it, they are about ten years from having kids of school age.

I base my knowledge on slightly further away in south London, where rich family home owners who I have met, bar a few exceptions, all have laughed at me at the idea of raising kids in the area, and have either gone private or moved. Just yesterday a incredibly middle class right on friend of my wife said they were going private "as they don't want their child a minority" and were "worried about the high level of FSM". We've been hearing them prattle on about how wonderful and diverse their neighbourhood is for years, though.

 

[BigMoaner]

Anyway, who cares. I've just got a particular bee in my bonnet about this as had some very sniffy comments from particular people in my family who have moved.

 

[Rushy]

You're missing the basic timing and economics though. If hip young things with plenty of disposable income move into an area and gentrify it, they are about ten years from having kids of school age.

Yes. Was going to suggest this myself. Although would not have said "hip young things" for fear of sounding like a grandparent .

 

[Winot]

Yes. Was going to suggest this myself. Although would not have said "hip young things" for fear of sounding like a grandparent .

You've still got it daddio.

 

[hammerntongues]

There was an interesting BBC documentary on recently titled " The last white man in East London " or some such title , if it had been on Channel 5 I probably wouldnt even have started to watch it but it did throw up some questions for me at least . It showed relatively quick emptying of Newham of white working class families who were generally moving out to the Essex suburbs , Romford , Upminster , Rainham and further afield Rayleigh , Bicnacre etc . It covered young families wanting to move out before their kids went to school and older folks whose families had gradually migrated and need family support as they got older . Apparently Newham now has the highest pecentage of non white residents in the UK , i think it was 73 % . It centred a lot on The East Ham working mens club which was held up to be the last bastion of whiteness , or old school , in the area . 3rd and 4th generation East Enders who were bemoaning the influx of outsiders , and lets be honest we are talking Muslims generally . It was reasonable balanced and tried to give a good impression , some of the older folks leaving were complimentary about their muslim neighbours , others less so but watching it did make me think of this thread . I have no association with Brixton other than many years of visiting the Academy but are there similarities to be drawn ? An influx of " outsiders " in what is seen as a taking over and changing the area , OK one is based on Race and the other on social status/wealth but in principle it is similar , one would generally be seen by the majority as improving the area and the other as spoiling it .

but the statement

" The lack of integration and the creation of a two-tier Brixton,( NEWHAM ?) firmly divided along money ( RACIAL )lines, is what depresses me most about the recent changes "

Are the residents of Newham being racist or are they just resistant to change ?

I am not even sure what I think myself .

wrong thread maybe ?

 

[Winot]

This thread's more like Muslims who've been here a while complaining about more recently arrived Muslims.

 

[BigMoaner]

my family go back many hundreds of years in south london, and many moved out when their areas became run down. many used to blame this on migrants. they get confused though. imo, they see poverty, and wrongly link that with ethnicity. but cities will always have poor areas, coinciding with recent arrivals escaping poverty globally. so they see their areas become poor, and instead of blaming capitalism, they blame ethnicity.

still think london is becoming cramped, housing, traffic, services, HMOs, etc, etc and i wouldn't say no to a slowing down of numbers, and if tighter immigration controls is needed, then so be it. we can still take in the most vulnerable, and it doesn't have to be forever, just try slowing it down for a while.

 

[BigMoaner]

Bermondsey is the only area in inner london i know that has (ever-dwindling) white, working class community. Many of hte estates around there have large groups of white cockney teenagers, speaking in a strong south london accent, which is a rare sight these days.

 

[Manter]

Yes. Was going to suggest this myself. Although would not have said "hip young things" for fear of sounding like a grandparent .

I've just given up and accepted I am old.

 

[hammerntongues]

This thread's more like Muslims who've been here a while complaining about more recently arrived Muslims.

And this featured too , a second generation Muslim who considered himself a Cockney , was complaining that all his old white mates were leaving him on his own amongst the recent arrivals , " why didnt they stay and fight " figuratively .

 

[Mr Retro]

Gentrification itself is a symptom. A symptom, for example, of taxation policies that encourage landlordery, driving up rents and pushing out the less well-off. Or a symptom of housing policies that have failed to build enough affordable homes.

And a pension system that people don't understand or trust encouraging people to take preparing for retirement into their own hands encouraging landlordery

 

[editor]

This thread's more like Muslims who've been here a while complaining about more recently arrived Muslims.

It's really not, you know.