Apple iPhone and related items (cont.)

[sunnysidedown]

Elsewhere, the inevitable anti-Apple pro-Adobe Facebook group has been spawned:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&ref=search&gid=113492765344092

I don't know if I should laugh or cry... did that Flash evangelist plonka set this up?

Adobe is a company that has fucked Apple and it's users over numerous times, never mind the creative industry with what it did (or indeed didn't do) with Macromedia.

 

[editor]

Adobe is a company that has fucked Apple and it's users over numerous times, never mind the creative industry with what it did (or indeed didn't do) with Macromedia.

Seeing as Adobe has provided high end, world leading tools like Photoshop, Illustrator and Dreamweaver to the Mac platform, could you elaborate on your no-doubt fascinating and not even slightly biased theory about how they have "fucked" Apple?

 

[sunnysidedown]

Seeing as Adobe has provided high end, world leading tools like Photoshop, Illustrator and Dreamweaver to the Mac platform, could you elaborate on your no-doubt fascinating and not even slightly biased theory about how they have "fucked" Apple?

dreamweaver? I don't think many web designer/devs on the Mac use that piece of shit (I'm generalising of course). And Freehand was always way better than Illustrator (until Adobe fucked Macromedia up), as for Photoshop well yes, is was a great app up until CS2, now it is a bloated beast (like all the rest of their stuff). And I did switch over a place I once worked at to InDesign (they were using Quark) back in 2001 or so, so i'm not perfect... - but, back to your question - Adobe pulled Premier from the Mac platform back in the late nineties, this fucked Apple up a fair bit as you could imagine (there was no other video software on the platform), the upside of this is that Apple dug deep and produced Final Cut, which as we know ened up going toe to toe with Avid.

Flash has always been the bane of Mac users, Adobe have never bothered their arse's sorting out the badly optimised shit fest that is Flash on the Mac, they have had years to do something about that - and back in the day when the majority of Adobes products were being used on the Mac (and hence their revenue stream), Adobe used a PC on their website to advertise the (then) latest Photoshop (this may seem trivial to some, but it was an obvious display of where Adobe was concentrating its time and resources) - there's plenty more things that have arose over the years and it's clear to most Mac users that Adobe's focus (for a few years now) has been on the PC market.

 

[editor]

dreamweaver? I don't think many web designer/devs on the Mac use that piece of shit (I'm generalising of course).

You're talking out of your arse. Dreamweaver is the industry standard*. As is Photoshop.

And Apple have benefited massively by having these class leading tools on their platform. In fact, for some users, it's the reason they bought a Mac in the first place.



*I prefer Homesite, btw.

 

[sunnysidedown]

You're talking out of your arse. Dreamweaver is the industry standard*. As is Photoshop.

And Apple have benefited massively by having these class leading tools on their platform. In fact, for some users, it's the reason they bought a Mac in the first place.



*I prefer Homesite, btw.

I would say that it was Adobe that has benefited hugely from Apple, it was the Apple platform that they used to develop both Illustrator & Photoshop at a time that the Mac was already widespread accross publishing/DTP areas (with Quark and Aldus - and people were using AutoCAD on Mac's before Illustrator came along), and eventually Adobe purchased Aldus Pagemaker, some 10 years after it was first released on the Mac (which then became InDesign).

Photoshop is pretty unique in the world of software I agree, but there have been no real improvements to that application for years, certainly not to warrant the kind of pricing structure Adobe has been charging for it's software suite upgrades.

And I can only speak for the people I know who are web devs, none of which use Dreamweaver - again, this was a good app when it was under Macromedia, but today there are far better options (esp for coding).

 

[elbows]

Except Android is growing far faster than Apple without the need for such hands-on restrictions.

I was talking about a trend away from using flash on the web, not how rapidly the different mobile platforms are growing. Its certainly true that you dont have to impose such restrictions in order to get some progress, and that Apple have a variety of other motivations for doing so. But at the moment Apples stance provides a compelling reason for sites to dump Flash far sooner than they would have, they are responsible for pushing for several of the flash-killing technologies to end up in the html5 & css3 spec, and the iAd stuff is another example of them pushing adoption of html5. Its almost a shame that proper native iphone app support came out before developers got a chance to push webapps beyond the previous limits. And if palm had been more successful with webOS then I would also go on about them a lot more because they pretty much put html5 at the heart of their OS development platform.

 

[elbows]

Adobe and Apple had a mutually beneficial relationship for many years, of very great benefit to both. Apple simply dont need Adobe as much as they used to.

 

[Pie 1]

Photoshop is pretty unique in the world of software I agree, but there have been no real improvements to that application for years

Sorry, but you are talking out of your arse.
There have been huge improvements & specific inovations that professional users of PS, like myself, benefit from every day.

 

[editor]

Photoshop is pretty unique in the world of software I agree, but there have been no real improvements to that application for years, certainly not to warrant the kind of pricing structure Adobe has been charging for it's software suite upgrades.

And I can only speak for the people I know who are web devs, none of which use Dreamweaver - again, this was a good app when it was under Macromedia, but today there are far better options (esp for coding).

You really are talking shite.

Dreamweaver is by far the most popular, high end web building software and Photoshop continues to be at the absolute forefront of graphics editing software, with each version seeing significant upgrades.

 

[editor]

And if palm had been more successful with webOS then I would also go on about them a lot more because they pretty much put html5 at the heart of their OS development platform.

Except Palm have welcomed Flash on to their phones, there's no restrictions on its use, they don't care what tools their apps are written with and there's already a Adobe Flash Player for webOS.

 

[elbows]

Except Palm have welcomed Flash on to their phones, there's no restrictions on its use, they don't care what tools their apps are written with and there's already a Adobe Flash Player for webOS.

Maybe I am not putting my points about html5 across very well, I am talking about more than one thing here. In order for it to succeed and displace flash, it needs a variety of things to happen, such as lots of devices supporting it, and some cheerleaders for it, showing off what it can do,building stuff on top of it, offering tools. Quite a lot of corporations are doing this to varying extents, including Google, Palm and Apple, perhaps even Adobe too (will see what Dreamweaver CS5 offers soon enough).

Apple also happen to be encouraging html5 adoption by making devices with buzz that developers & content providers want to support, but that doesnt support flash. This, in my opinion, is likely to accelerate the rise of html5 because it gives people a reason to switch to it quickly. It has a downside which has been discussed here a lot.

I was talking about both of these approaches in previous posts, because both are a threat to Flash dominance in the longterm, and therefore even devices that are supporting flash can still play a part in the erosion of flash's web presence.

 

[sunnysidedown]

You really are talking shite.

Dreamweaver is by far the most popular, high end web building software and Photoshop continues to be at the absolute forefront of graphics editing software, with each version seeing significant upgrades.

Dreamweaver is popular because it is part of the CS workflow, that doesn't mean it is good or that there are not better alternatives to people with their heads screwed on.

And I did say there is nothing really touching Photoshop at the moment - but if you think there has been significant upgrades since CS2 for instance, I would disagree - there is nothing there that has improved/changed my work flow - if there's something snazzy they've introduced that you couldn't live without, then good for you.

 

[editor]

Dreamweaver is popular because it is part of the CS workflow, that doesn't mean it is good or that there are not better alternatives to people with their heads screwed on.

Ah right. So there's stupid people using Dreamweaver now because they can't work out any 'better alternatives'?



Not everyone uses Dreamweaver as 'part of the CS workflow' and it is a perfectly capable standalone product. That's why it's so popular. Industry standard, in fact,

I really think you should consider the "stop digging" option here.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Ah right. So there's stupid people using Dreamweaver now because they can't work out any 'better alternatives'?

I didn't say that, as far as WYSIWYG web apps go Adobe has the monopoly with DW, and it's 'popularity' is helped along by it's inclusion in the CS suite. In pretty much all the graphics places I've worked it is the only app they know and/or have. (esp now that Adobe's GoLive has ceased).

But IME actual web developers are opting for leaner alternatives to dreamweaver.

Not everyone uses Dreamweaver as 'part of the CS workflow' and it is a perfectly capable standalone product. That's why it's so popular. Industry standard, in fact,

It's industry standard because Adobe pretty much has the monopoly on the graphics/creative content industry, that still doesn't mean that Adobe haven't messed DW up since they aquired it.

 

[grit]

But IME actual web developers are opting for leaner alternatives to dreamweaver.

Most of the front end guys that I know use it (however never in design view). It provides syntax highlighting and some good auto completion for a lot of web langauges/frameworks.

People who dont do all front end work prob use something similar to notepad++

 

[editor]

I didn't say that, as far as WYSIWYG web apps go Adobe has the monopoly with DW, and it's 'popularity' is helped along by it's inclusion in the CS suite. In pretty much all the graphics places I've worked it is the only app they know and/or have. (esp now that Adobe's GoLive has ceased).

But IME actual web developers are opting for leaner alternatives to dreamweaver.


It's industry standard because Adobe pretty much has the monopoly on the graphics/creative content industry, that still doesn't mean that Adobe haven't messed DW up since they aquired it.

Seeing as you're keen to keep digging and are hell bent on ignoring what everyone is telling you, could you explain the difference between a web developer using DW and an "actual web developer"?

And how has Adobe got a "monopoly" with DW? There's a vast choice of web editing tools available, but DW has become the most popular on account of it s versatility and feature set.

I've also used DW since v1 and I fail to see how Adobe has "messed it up." In fact, it's become a far better product, so could you support your claim with some substance, please?

Your attempts to keep damning Adobe for providing an industry standard program really are quite strange to be honest.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Seeing as you're keen to keep digging and are hell bent on ignoring what everyone is telling you, could you explain the difference between a web developer using DW and an "actual web developer"?

And how has Adobe got a "monopoly" with DW? There's a vast choice of web editing tools available, but DW has become the most popular on account of it s versatility and feature set.

I've also used DW since v1 and I fail to see how Adobe has "messed it up." In fact, it's become a far better product, so could you support your claim with some substance, please?

Your attempts to keep damning Adobe for providing an industry standard program really are quite strange to be honest.

we are getting way off topic with this stuff, but I'll chuck one more post in.

BTW, Adobe are showing off CS5 later, - check out that groovy content aware fill.

I'm not damning Adobe, I've used their stuff for years, I'm just into finding alternatives to their products, for a number of reasons. (which granted, in some cases is damn hard).

And I can only talk about my experience with working in environmets with DW, it tends to be used in a CS workflow where people bring in page designs etc from PS or ID and carve them up in DW.

And this also explains why DW is popular in the type of places I refer to, it comes with the suite and is integrated with it - why would anyone who's spunked a load of cash on PS, ID, Illustrator etc, go and purchase a totaly different web application?

The few coders that I know don't use DW, they mostly use Coda (which of course like most software still has it's erks).

I am somewhat looking forward to seeing what CS5 brings to the table though, but my main software these days is Final Cut Pro & ProTools.

 

[grit]

Adobe did give Apple the finger when they announced that Windows would be their primary platform, I imagine this fueled Job's fire.

http://innerdaemon.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/sorry-adobe-you-screwed-yourself/

 

[editor]

I'm not damning Adobe, I've used their stuff for years....

Yes, you are.

You've made a series of ill-educated comments about their software. You've repeatedly claimed that Adobe "messed it up" Dreamweaver (I'm still waiting to hear how they managed that) and declared that they've made "no real improvements" to Photoshop "for years."

Do you still stand by those comments, or will you just admit that you were talking shite?

 

[editor]

Adobe did give Apple the finger when they announced that Windows would be their primary platform, I imagine this fueled Job's fire.

http://innerdaemon.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/sorry-adobe-you-screwed-yourself/

Not sure if it was a case of "giving Apple the finger" or just electing to develop for the larger market first.

That argument looks even weaker when you consider that the new CS5 suite is coming out on both platforms at the same time .

 

[sunnysidedown]

Adobe did give Apple the finger when they announced that Windows would be their primary platform, I imagine this fueled Job's fire.

http://innerdaemon.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/sorry-adobe-you-screwed-yourself/

thanks for posting that, I was refering to some of this stuff back up there^, but that post gives a good time-line & quotes.

 

[grit]

Not sure if it was a case of "giving Apple the finger" or just electing to develop for the larger market first.

That argument looks even weaker when you consider that the new CS5 suite is coming out on both platforms at the same time .

Well when a developer republishes benchmarks to show their applications running faster on Windows than on Mac. Its making a statement.

In summary, the iPhone situation is just another thread in a long running argument/debate/discussion whatever you want to call it. There are big political things between these two that is the source of the friction. I think we are losing perspective not looking at the big picture.

 

[editor]

thanks for posting that, I was refering to some of this stuff back up there^, but that post gives a good time-line & quotes.

Yes. From 2001, with the most recent quote being four years old. It's a pretty awful article too.

Perhaps you might articulate how Apple developers have actually suffered from this decision because as far as I can see, CS5 is every bit as good and as as competitive as the Windows version, and it was the same story for CS4.

Now, about your claim that Adobe had "messed it up" Dreamweaver and made "no real improvements" to Photoshop "for years"....

 

[sunnysidedown]

will you just admit that you were talking shite?

I'm always talking shite

You've made a series of ill-educated comments about their software. You've repeatedly claimed that Adobe "messed it up" Dreamweaver (I'm still waiting to hear how they managed that) and declared that they've made "no real improvements" to Photoshop "for years."

I have used their software for years, I can make whatever comments I like.

This series you refer to was actually only 2 comments:

1. I don't think the *improvements* to PS over the years are enough to warrant the cost of what Adobe has been charging for upgrades, speaking from my own use of the software.

2. DW (I'm refering to CS3 & CS4 here) is just horrible to use from my (yes, limited) use of it (I actually used DW a bit when it first came out and got quite into it for a while), but I feel it has become a convoluted mess of a programme. My discusions with a few friends of mine who make a living from web development tend to feel the same way - and have chosen other alternatives.

If you dig DW that's fine & dandy.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Yes. From 2001, with the most recent quote being four years old. It's a pretty awful article too.

What? it gives history to this whole issue, as for awful, it's about the facts & quotes not the little bits of writting inbetween.

Perhaps you might articulate how Apple developers have actually suffered from this decision because as far as I can see, CS5 is every bit as good and as as competitive as the Windows version, and it was the same story for CS4.

CS5 should indeed be every bit as good as the windows version, if that's the case then all I can say is that it's taken them long enough - maybe the lure of the iPhone gravy train made them pull their socks up a bit.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Man alive this is the most boring shite ever..!

 

[grit]

Man alive this is the most boring shite ever..!

I'm behaving myself ok?

 

[elbows]

Well none of the Dreamweaver CS5 info released today mentions HTML5 or CSS3, although thats not to say they cant be used with it.

When going on about HTML5 and Flash & Adobe before I forgot to mention that they do support HTML & AJAX stuff in Adobe Air in addition to Flash, so Adobe are not beyond supporting tech that competes with Flash when they feel they have to.

 

[editor]

Well none of the Dreamweaver CS5 info released today mentions HTML5 or CSS3, although thats not to say they cant be used with it..

Apparently, there is some support to be found.

Over the past three days Adobe has quietly released several “preview” videos of future technology in Dreamweaver… Now just as with the sneak-peak Photoshop videos posted last week, there are no assurances on exactly which version of Dreamweaver or when – but considering that CS5 could be coming out fairly soon, we could be seeing some of these new technologies in CS5. But even if not, they are rather impressive…...

The second one delves into support for multiscreen authoring with HTML5 and CSS3, and so might be considered more in the “emerging” department

http://prodesigntools.com/three-dreamweaver-cs5-sneak-peek-videos.html

 

[elbows]

The video they mentioned didnt show much really, jsut support for css screen stuff so that you can preview your site how it would look on devices with varying screen sizes, using different css files for each screen type.

Anyway I stumbled around the web a bit and found something far more dramatic, the ability to export Flash animations to HTML5 canvas for playback in modern browsers without needing flash:

http://www.9to5mac.com/Flash-html5-canvas-35409730

The devil is in the detail on this one, it certainly shouldnt be seen as a way to convert fancy flash sites, apps, games to html canvas & javascript, because it cant do that. But its a good start and will at least enable flash banner advert type animation stuff to be exported in a way that will work with iphones & ipads. A pretty clear sign that Adobe arent going to let the flash war hamper their ability to provide tools that are relevant for tomorrows world.