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Anti- Forced Marriages Law

I have to admit to being puzzled by the need for more law in this instance.
Any element of force would make such a marriage null and void under English law if the marriage were challenged.
 
Paul Marsh said:
I just wondered if posters on this site, particularly from Respect, agreed with this proposed law?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4214308.stm
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I heard somewhere that Galloway said something on the lines of "Any woman who uses the anti forced marraige law to get out of marrying some mad backwards Islamic wife beater is asking to be killed, on the grounds that they have disRESPECTed their religion". Didn't he also support the attempted murder of Rushdie for the same reasons?
 
HarrisonSlade said:
I heard somewhere that Galloway said something on the lines of "Any woman who uses the anti forced marraige law to get out of marrying some mad backwards Islamic wife beater is asking to be killed, on the grounds that they have disRESPECTed their religion". Didn't he also support the attempted murder of Rushdie for the same reasons?
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Naah, that was Yvonne "I'm not a spook" Ridley.
 
This is a subject I feel very strongly about as I have a good friend about to be forced into a marriage.

She has no options either leave her family, i.e. her whole life as she's not been allowed out to see friends or marry some cunt she doesn't know. terrific.

But lets await the Islamic apologists and hear their hypocracy.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Got a source, or real quote from Ridley?
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All those attempts to reform the fourth international, and you still can't spot a joke when its under your nose.........
 
She has no options either leave her family, i.e. her whole life as she's not been allowed out to see friends or marry some cunt she doesn't know. terrific
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Thats awful, but how does a law change anything if she is not prepared to consider a break with her family? Isn't that the problem with this - the people it is intended to help, are the ones who are unlikely to countenance the rupture with the family that this requires. How do you get them out of that situation if they are not willing to admit before a policeman or another official that they want out? This law seems mainly to increase the penalty rather than prevent the offence.
 
DoUsAFavour said:
This is a subject I feel very strongly about as I have a good friend about to be forced into a marriage.

She has no options either leave her family, i.e. her whole life as she's not been allowed out to see friends or marry some cunt she doesn't know. terrific.

But lets await the Islamic apologists and hear their hypocracy.
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That is shocking but as others have argued, how would any proposed law change it? If she's been threatened with violence that's illegal now, so is kidnap. If she's not prepared to break ties with her family (understandably) what would the chances of her testifying against them be? If she consents...under whatever emotional blackmail...it's not legally forced is it?
Not allowing her out could be classed as kidnap, but again would she testify? If not the law can't help her. If she did leave and was then attacked it's assault, already illegal.

The solution to this has to come from inside these communities. And it's rooted in culture - not religion. There ain't nothing about forced marriages in the koran.

I'm speaking as someone who has an asian partner, have had for several years, and her parents don't know i exist... and we're getting broody.. would we keep kids a secret?
 
The solution to this has to come from inside these communities. And it's rooted in culture - not religion. There ain't nothing about forced marriages in the koran.
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Hold on a minute. It is rooted in culture AND religion. The basic tenants of all religion are sexist. Check out the koran and where it talks about it being acceptable for a man to beat his wife if she gets too out of hand.

I'm speaking as someone who has an asian partner, have had for several years, and her parents don't know i exist... and we're getting broody.. would we keep kids a secret?
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What's this got to do with anything? However as someone who has been through two similar situations while the situation does lie in the community to a large extent there are also issues about providing secure accomodation for women, councilling etc and it's not just an issue for the Asian community, but the whole of the working class.
 
mutley said:
The solution to this has to come from inside these communities. And it's rooted in culture - not religion. There ain't nothing about forced marriages in the koran.
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But it's not just the Koran that makes islamic laws, there are senior clerics that make it up as they go along.

My mate showed me the current think from two of these scholars, one saying if a bride really doesn't want it then she has the right to say no but the other more recent cleric saying she should obey her fathers word regardless.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Hold on a minute. It is rooted in culture AND religion. The basic tenants of all religion are sexist. Check out the koran and where it talks about it being acceptable for a man to beat his wife if she gets too out of hand.

Well then why did islam get specifically mentioned above, if all religions are sexist and therefore to blame, and no other religion get mentioned? (not by you i know but you didn't challenge the point either) And the other point about wife beating (a) isn't about forced marriages (b) is undoubtedly mirrored in similar barbaric throwbacks in every 'great' world religion. The texts reflect the culture, not the other way round

What's this got to do with anything?

It's to counter dousafavour saying he/she knows what it's about and others don't

However as someone who has been through two similar situations while the situation does lie in the community to a large extent there are also issues about providing secure accomodation for women, councilling etc and it's not just an issue for the Asian community, but the whole of the working class.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the last point
 
DoUsAFavour said:
But it's not just the Koran that makes islamic laws, there are senior clerics that make it up as they go along.

My mate showed me the current think from two of these scholars, one saying if a bride really doesn't want it then she has the right to say no but the other more recent cleric saying she should obey her fathers word regardless.
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Which to me shows that to start off with the koran is no good. Every culture picks and chooses from its history, reinterprets stuff etc etc.

Also i've got another mate (i'm well connected me) who tried to kill herself rather than have an arranged marriage as a teenager. She's a sikh. It's about culture.
 
Mutley as with you I have several experiences. I've had a relationship with a Sikh woman whose parents who tried to pressurise her into a marriage (and totally oppressed her), a muslim woman (whose parents weren't nearly so strict - i think she ended up marring a white bloke) and even had a girlfriend when I was younger who was from a Greek background and she was worried about telling her parents for ages because I was English (as it goes they were totally cool, but she couldn't tell them about black guys she went out with subsequently). I've also got several friends, from different back grounds with similar experiences (including people who can't tell their parents about gay relationships). So I'm well aware it's not just about the Koran.

Having said this you can't just say it's culture. The religion and culture are intrinsically linked. All religion is about oppression and all are intrinsically sexist. The Koran, as with all the other relgious texts I've read, has explicit sexism in it. You can't say that it's the culture and not the religion, because there would never be some abstract religion that wasn't sexist. The religion is the basis of the oppression that is intwined with culture. The texts reflect culture, and culture ends up reflecting the religion it's a two way process.
 
Paul Marsh said:
All those attempts to reform the fourth international, and you still can't spot a joke when its under your nose.........
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It gets better, he's now trying to set up the fifth international. I kid you not.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Having said this you can't just say it's culture. The religion and culture are intrinsically linked. All religion is about oppression and all are intrinsically sexist. The Koran, as with all the other relgious texts I've read, has explicit sexism in it. You can't say that it's the culture and not the religion, because there would never be some abstract religion that wasn't sexist. The religion is the basis of the oppression that is intwined with culture. The texts reflect culture, and culture ends up reflecting the religion it's a two way process.
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OK so i was bending the stick, and yes there's a dialectical relationship between religion and culture, and sexism will exist in any religious texts and can therefore be used to justify forced marriages. But the fact is in the current climate, and when some posters will immediately start to go on about Islam as soon as this is mentioned then that stick has to be bent.
 
The point is, if people come from such families, there should be social support, so they can move on in there lives.If they so wish.
 
OK so i was bending the stick, and yes there's a dialectical relationship between religion and culture, and sexism will exist in any religious texts and can therefore be used to justify forced marriages. But the fact is in the current climate, and when some posters will immediately start to go on about Islam as soon as this is mentioned then that stick has to be bent.
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I can see what you're saying, just think you were bending the stick a little too far whiplash mutley ;) :D
 
My view is that everyone should be free to do anything they like with their life and that they should not be forced to do anything else by anyone else.

Laws should all be concerned with preventing people causing harm to others.

On that basis I would see nothing wrong with a law making forced marriage illegal but, on a practical level, I do not see it being enforceable. As has been noted, several laws already exists which could be invoked, at least in serious cases, but there is still the issue of willingness of the victim to testify.

"Forced" would need careful definition: some level of emotional / financial persuasion is inevitable (and exists in all culture - the new partner passing the "parent-acceptability test"!). You could not legislate against parents who said "If you marry him we will never speak to you again / cut you out of our wills" and equally you could not legislate against the parents who said "If you do not accept this arranged marraiage we will never speak to you again / cut you out of our wills".
 
Sorry that was off topic.

Anyway. In my opinion a marraige should not be recognised by law, full stop. It is not up to the state to intrude on someone's partnership. If the Godbotherers want their partnership blessed by some childmolester reading from the Kuran or the Bible let them, why it has to be any business of the states I do not know. I guess that this might piss off certain sad and bored activists who wanted to fight for the rights of Muslem men to have over 100 wives they can beat, amputate and execute, or the gay men who have this notion in their heads that it is their right to go on Richard and Judy and get married in front of some creepy liberal vicar, but isn't it just worth it just to piss of a load of Sociology Student activist Student Gwant types?

If marraiges were not recognised by law then there would be no forced marraiges. Stands to reason innit.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Hold on a minute. It is rooted in culture AND religion. The basic tenants of all religion are sexist. Check out the koran and where it talks about it being acceptable for a man to beat his wife if she gets too out of hand.
.
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I agree that a lot of the monotheistic faiths have a large dollop of mysoginy in them that has been put in over the years. That is why imo those people of monotheistic faiths whether they be muslim, christian or jew who are re examining and exising the stuff that was put in for reasons of social control must be supported against those who would use the faiths to bolster their own political positiions.

As a radical progressive Christian said to me the other week. 'lets take the battles, the bigotry and the tribalism out of the bible and keep Gods love' which is not totally my position but I can see where he is aiming for and it is good.

Oh and Ridley and Galloway can fuck off.
 
james_walsh said:
The point is, if people come from such families, there should be social support, so they can move on in there lives.If they so wish.
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Agreed.

No help seems to be available for anybody seeking to escape an oppressive/violent/abusive family. :mad:
 
DoUsAFavour said:
But it's not just the Koran that makes islamic laws, there are senior clerics that make it up as they go along..
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Radical progressive muslims are currently looking at the Hadith and sorting the wheat from the chaff. Some of the Hadith I've been told are more accretions of cultural and historical stuff rather than revelation.

After all with the bible when you strip out the guff from St Paul and Revelations (which allegedly came from Zoroastrianism) you are left with two commandments 'love God and love your neighbour as yourself' everything else don't matter.
 
KeyboardJockey said:
Radical progressive muslims are currently looking at the Hadith and sorting the wheat from the chaff. Some of the Hadith I've been told are more accretions of cultural and historical stuff rather than revelation.

After all with the bible when you strip out the guff from St Paul and Revelations (which allegedly came from Zoroastrianism) you are left with two commandments 'love God and love your neighbour as yourself' everything else don't matter.
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Yeah one of the main flaws with Islam is that the Koran and the Hadiths contradict each other. If the Koran is the 'final', 'perfect' world of god, why need the hadiths?
 
RenegadeDog said:
Yeah one of the main flaws with Islam is that the Koran and the Hadiths contradict each other. If the Koran is the 'final', 'perfect' world of god, why need the hadiths?
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Same as the conflict between the old and the new testaments in the Bible.
There is stuff in the old that contradicts the new and vice versa.
 
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