All this 'return to analogue' stuff..

[Ralph Llama]

Yes, you spend quite a bit of time using higher quality audio when producing, because that is the main purpose of high quality audio - to retain the quality whilst audio is being processed, prior to being reduced in quality to a more consumable format. If you process the audio at CD quality then there will be more artefacts, and potentially a loss of quality. <sorry, I see you're referring to spending a lot of time on ultrasound when producing, not in high sample rates and bit depths... are you making music for bats!?!?!>

I don't think separating senses is over simplification. It's just a technical and logical approach. i.e. okay we're going to design an audio codec > what frequencies can people actually hear? > what frequencies can typical (or even high end) systems reproduce? > do we really need frequencies over 22.05 kHz?, etc.

CD quality is not pathetic. If it were then there would be more than the odd audiophile and sound engineer complaining about it. Any recording of a performance will be limited by the specification of the recording and reproduction systems, nothing is perfect in that regard.

I ran some listening tests for my acoustics degree that indicated to me that 128 kbps Mp3 is surprisingly good and it is not easy to tell the difference between that and a CD quality WAV (some of the programme material was from SACD too so it wasn't just CD quality to low bitrate MP3, in some cases it was better than CD quality to low bitrate MP3, and telling the difference between these was very difficult

We are not consciously aware of all the frequencies that effect us.

Example :you may have learnt in uni about tectonic plates producing ultra low frequencies that scientists have attributed to fear and viloent outbursts such as riots in SanFrancisco ? If not, look into it.

The seperation of senses is obviously a personal view point.

As I have said already on this thread cd's are wank... not just because of the error correction but because of the low sample rates and stupid cut off rates.
Have you tried turning the error correction off . Have you played an unblemished 16 bit cd's over a 20kw sound system ?the difference is quite obvious.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Have you ever performed a double blind test, to see if you can tell the difference between raw files and compressed files?
There have been many, many double blind tests set up to enable audiophiles to prove they're not simply deluded bullshitters. Unfortunately, most audiophiles flatly refuse to take the tests, and the ones who do take them tend to do no better than if they'd guessed the answer.

I did mention that I am a sound engineer did I not ?

 

[Saul Goodman]

I did mention that I am a sound engineer did I not ?

How does that answer my question?

 

[Ralph Llama]

How does that answer my question?

I do 'blind tests' constantly Your stupid logic could quite easily be turned against people who think cd's are OK.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I do 'blind tests' constantly Your stupid logic could quite easily be turned against people who think cd's are OK.

Because you're a sound engineer you do double blind tests to see if you're a deluded audiophile? Is it a compulsory requirement? Do you have to go on refresher courses?

 

[8ball]

Have you ever performed a double blind test, to see if you can tell the difference between raw files and compressed files?

We tried this a while back and several posters could. We also tried valve amps vs. digital amps (including valve-modelling amps). You just need an ear for it.

 

[8ball]

I do 'blind tests' constantly Your stupid logic could quite easily be turned against people who think cd's are OK.

I like them - they sound way better than tapes.

 

[Saul Goodman]

We tried this a while back and several posters could. We also tried valve amps vs. digital amps (including valve-modelling amps). You just need an ear for it.

I'd like to see that test, and the test conditions.
Valve amps sound nothing like digital amps. They add a shit ton of noise... sorry, 'warmth'

 

[Ralph Llama]

Sorry Saul I should have explained... and it's not stupid logic, it does bear some truth.
I put my self through double blind tests with music I produce in order to establish what dynamic range suits the track.

And yes... to be a good soundie it is essential imo.

I think your definition of audiophile is a little bit fucked. I do not use gold plated xlr's and copper transmits signal just fine.
What we are talking about here is tangible difference in audio quality... in my case .. which is amplified through a 20-100kw rig... which as I am sure you will appreciate... brings out the little differences.

 

[8ball]

I'd like to see that test, and the test conditions.
Valve amps sound nothing like digital amps. They add a shit ton of noise... sorry, 'warmth'

It was a while back. I think I was the only one to get all of them, but Suplex
got all but one. It was a page with a bunch of guitar amp samples.

With digital it clips into 3’s and 5’s which sound spiky, whereas with valves you get nice round 2’s and 8’s - like little pebbles rather than shards of glass.

That description might not work so well for the non-synaesthesia crowd...

 

[Ralph Llama]

I'd like to see that test, and the test conditions.
Valve amps sound nothing like digital amps. They add a shit ton of noise... sorry, 'warmth'

I think 8ball was talking about comparisons between physically modelled valve amps and valve amps .... so ... yerself

Edit .. oh ... myself then

 

[Enviro]

... As I have said already on this thread cd's are wank... not just because of the error correction but because of the low sample rates and stupid cut off rates. ....

In your opinion, yes, fine. If they were objectively wank then none would ever be sold and no-one would ever listen to them the cut off rates are necessarily steep to avoid aliasing. The sample rate is adequately high that it covers the standard range of audible frequencies.

Do your productions ever get bounced/ mastered to bit depths lower than 16 bit and/ or sample rates lower than 48 kHz? If so, how do you live with yourself and how do you tolerate the travesty of having your productions sullied by such wankily low quality!?!?

 

[fishfinger]

I


I said he was a hacker not a hack. Jesus... what are you going to do with me .. completely loose your argument .. as Anybody who is not an arse licker of yours can plainly see.

I have tried to explain all the points which you dismissed. You have completely ignored the points or clearly do not understand them. I am not going to have a retarded status seeking battle with you because I am only interested in intellectual debate on this. You chuck that link up as if it is saying somthing... it is not... the man has got it wrong. Any sound engineer you talk to who knows anything will confirm this. And there was me looking for ward to an interesting exchange go urban75


If you really want to learn about this subject then go to college rather than believing the first thing that comes up on a Google search.

Ralph, you know nothing about me. I am actually trying to help you here, and I can assure you I didn't google for those links.

If you were genuinely interested in having an "intellectual debate" you would read the article and watch the video I posted. It is backed up with these little things we call facts, and is widely supported by qualified audio engineers. As far as I can tell, the only people attempting to dismiss the article, are woo merchants - Surely you're not one too?

 

[Ralph Llama]

I have read the articles/watched the video and responded to all points within them . You should have gone to spec-savers ! He is definitely wrong. Trust me, i`m a sound engineer

 

[8ball]

There are plenty of sound engineers who believe in the woo.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Surley not ! They did not pay attention when they were educated then :/ Why would they believe that

*stops to remember fellow students

oh ... too many drugs .. or crap ears i suppose ... bloody DJ`s

 

[8ball]

Woo is no respecter of education.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Which is why I am going to write a very condemning email to m8e boy with the silly beard ... although I doubt, from his attitude, he will care.

 

[fishfinger]

I have read the articles/watched the video and responded to all points within them . You should have gone to spec-savers ! He is definitely wrong. Trust me, i`m a sound engineer

Do you really think that the likes of Red Hat, Mozilla, Spotify, Bandcamp etc don't have competent software engineers?
You have not managed to refute anything, and if you had produced several free audio and video codecs that were in worldwide use, then I might take you seriously.

 

[Ralph Llama]

I am ... moderately sure.. they are better hackers than me within certain areas. I am absolutely sure I am a better audio engineer than them though.

 

[twentythreedom]

Have you read the audiophile thread? You'll fit right in

 

[Ralph Llama]

Try making a point... unless you know nothing about this .. then shut it or you can ask questions if you like.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

This is a really boring and gradually more abusive sidetrack imo.

 

[Ralph Llama]

I am quite bored TBH.

*leaves thread

 

[Saul Goodman]

Sorry Saul I should have explained... and it's not stupid logic, it does bear some truth.
I put my self through double blind tests with music I produce in order to establish what dynamic range suits the track.

And yes... to be a good soundie it is essential imo.

I think your definition of audiophile is a little bit fucked. I do not use gold plated xlr's and copper transmits signal just fine.
What we are talking about here is tangible difference in audio quality... in my case .. which is amplified through a 20-100kw rig... which as I am sure you will appreciate... brings out the little differences.

I've made music that was played on big rigs. I mastered all of it using a set of AKG K240 DF phones. I'm deaf as fuck but it still sounded awesome an a big rig.
I think you'd have to work pretty hard to fuck up a piece so bad that it sounded shit on a big rig, and unless you have a set of studio monitors, then you're never going to fully appreciate what a sound engineer has done.

 

[Saul Goodman]

It was a while back. I think I was the only one to get all of them, but Suplex
got all but one. It was a page with a bunch of guitar amp samples.

With digital it clips into 3’s and 5’s which sound spiky, whereas with valves you get nice round 2’s and 8’s - like little pebbles rather than shards of glass.

That description might not work so well for the non-synaesthesia crowd...

That's a different animal. I'm talking about spotting compressed vs non-compressed audio.

 

[Supine]

He is definitely wrong. Trust me, i`m a sound engineer

Being a sound engineer doesn't mean shit.

 

[Supine]

So Ralph Llama now sends me a nasty PM.

Fuck you sad sack.

 

[twentythreedom]

Try making a point... unless you know nothing about this .. then shut it or you can ask questions if you like.

I asked a question already

Anyway, never mind

 

[Saul Goodman]

So Ralph Llama now sends me a nasty PM.

Fuck you sad sack.

Please share?