Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison

[cesare]

Over the Christmas period STV Glasgow were playing adverts almost on a constant loop about how if you get caught drunk driving then you may as well kiss your life goodbye, the implication being that if you are caught not only will you have a 20 year criminal record but you will lose your job, your family life will be strained if not broken and if you can get another job it won't be what you were doing before. And you won't be driving. Whilst I've no doubt they overegged the pudding somewhat, it seems odd that there could be greater penalties for being over the limit (excluding causing death whilst driving, obviously) and greater consequences long term than Ched Evans expects there to be for being convicted of rape.

The greater consequences long term could be that a drunk driver kills one or more people. This could lead into all sorts of discussion about the relative merits of drunk drivers v rapists but to pre-empt that I'll just observe that an act of drunken raping can be far less lethal than an act of drunken driving.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I'll just observe that an act of drunken raping can be far less lethal than an act of drunken driving.

Apart from the psychological trauma to the victim and a massively increased risk of long term depression and suicide - and then there's how that impacts on the victims family and kids etc.

And where the fuck are people getting this 'miscarriage of justice' shit from? The facts of the case are not disputed - its weather those facts constituted rape. The jury unanimously decided they did. Clearly there are WAY too many people who think that having sex with an unconscious women you have never met before is somehow consensual. This shit needs to be challenged.

 

[bemused]

And where the fuck are people getting this 'miscarriage of justice' shit from? The facts of the case are not disputed - its weather those facts constituted rape. The jury unanimously decided they did. Clearly there are WAY too many people who think that having sex with an unconscious women you have never met before is somehow consensual. This shit need to be challenged.

I guess they get it from the fact the case is under review. Which strikes me as a severe case of prejudging the outcome of that. He had two appeals denied so I assume it's a pretty solid case against him.

 

[cesare]

Apart from the psychological trauma to the victim and a massively increased risk of long term depression and suicide - and then there's how that impacts on the victims family and kids etc.

And where the fuck are people getting this 'miscarriage of justice' shit from? The facts of the case are not disputed - its weather those facts constituted rape. The jury unanimously decided they did. Clearly there are WAY too many people who think that having sex with an unconscious women you have never met before is somehow consensual. This shit needs to be challenged.

You don't think there's psychological trauma to the victim and the family of the victim of a drunken driver? Me and my family were far more traumatised by my sister being killed by a drunken driver, than by my rape.

Ched Evans hasn't just committed rape; he's committed a second offence which is that of using his power and position in hounding/encouraging the hounding of his rape victim. It's rape+ and he's a cunt.

I object to you quoting me out of context of the rest of my post, btw.

 

[Kaka Tim]

You don't think there's psychological trauma to the victim and the family of the victim of a drunken driver? Me and my family were far more traumatised by my sister being killed by a drunken driver, than by my rape.

Ched Evans hasn't just committed rape; he's committed a second offence which is that of using his power and position in hounding/encouraging the hounding of his rape victim. It's rape+ and he's a cunt.

I object to you quoting me out of context of the rest of my post, btw.

Apologies. Part of the argument of the people trying to defend Evans is to play down the effect on the victim and your post could have been seen as grist to that mill. Its clear that isn't what you were doing. Sorry for the shit you've had to go through as well.

 

[Sprocket.]

At this moment in time I am having my morning break at work, the three lads sat opposite all said pretty much in unison, '' I bet all blokes have had sex with a woman too drunk too remember at sometime!''
This is the second time that this lot have said this in the last few weeks.
My arguing that it's rape is met with questions about my manhood.
Are they just:
Rapists?
Thick?
Lads mouthing off to get a violent response from me?
I am seriously thinking about getting another job or at least getting transferred.

 

[Red Cat]

Hopefully, because these crap attitudes still persist in small pockets of society...ie no respect for women, when rape is not rape, drunken people not deserving protection etc.
Hopefully, continual conversations will help put an end to these mindless stoneage attitudes.

I don't know why you think these attitudes are only present in small pockets of society.

 

[Wilf]

Piece by Catherine Bennett in the guardian comparing the evans case with those of Polanski and assange:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/11/one-law-for-polanski-another-for-ched-evans
Not sure she's got it right when she implies there's a lack of criticism of Windsor and the whole thing is a bit too focussed on what celebs have done and said. Same time she does have a point about Polanski and assange.

 

[Looby]

Response: "It sounds like you might have experience of such nights out?"

Maybe a shit response, yes.

 

[quiquaquo]

You don't think there's psychological trauma to the victim and the family of the victim of a drunken driver? Me and my family were far more traumatised by my sister being killed by a drunken driver, than by my rape.

Ched Evans hasn't just committed rape; he's committed a second offence which is that of using his power and position in hounding/encouraging the hounding of his rape victim. It's rape+ and he's a cunt.

I object to you quoting me out of context of the rest of my post, btw.

Exactly, well said.

 

[Part 2]

Maybe a shit response, yes.

Its all a shit opinion warrants sometimes.

 

[William of Walworth]

Piece by Catherine Bennett in the guardian comparing the evans case with those of Polanski and assange:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/11/one-law-for-polanski-another-for-ched-evans
Not sure she's got it right when she implies there's a lack of criticism of Windsor and the whole thing is a bit too focussed on what celebs have done and said. Same time she does have a point about Polanski and assange.

Was in yesterday's Observer (not always that clear online tbf)

I was going to link to that myself, to comment on what a thoroughly shit article it was.

In short, because :

1. She's too wound up with celebreties (as you say), and
2. From that, she seems to be attempting to draw weird (and probably false) parallels.
3. She doesn't appear to know too much about the specifics of the Ched Evans case either.
4. She clearly knows fuck all about football generally.

 

[William of Walworth]

From the sports bit of yesterday's Observer, Daniel Taylor's attack on Gordon Taylor was pretty good I thought. (He also has a good pop at Steve Bruce).

This from the end of the article :

When Marlon King was serving a prison sentence for sexual assault and ABH in 2009 Taylor released a statement that is worth reflecting on now. “The PFA does not represent players when they have broken the law and been convicted on non-football matters.”

It does now, clearly, making up the rules as it goes along, while the rest of us watch through the gaps in our fingers.

WTF!

 

[equationgirl]

The greater consequences long term could be that a drunk driver kills one or more people. This could lead into all sorts of discussion about the relative merits of drunk drivers v rapists but to pre-empt that I'll just observe that an act of drunken raping can be far less lethal than an act of drunken driving.

I've been thinking about this for a few days, but in general whilst the effects of rape may not be immediately lethal to the victim, there have been documented cases where the victim has committed suicide directly because of the rape, and there was a case about a decade ago in Scotland where the rape victim committed suicide because the rapist insisted on representing himself at trial and asked her many intrusive questions, culminating in asking her to hold up the underwear she was wearing when she was raped.

Anyway, I agree that a discussion of the relative merits of drunk drivers v rapists is not for this thread so I'll stop there with my own observation.

 

[frogwoman]

I've been thinking about this for a few days, but in general whilst the effects of rape may not be immediately lethal to the victim, there have been documented cases where the victim has committed suicide directly because of the rape, and there was a case about a decade ago in Scotland where the rape victim committed suicide because the rapist insisted on representing himself at trial and asked her many intrusive questions, culminating in asking her to hold up the underwear she was wearing when she was raped.

Anyway, I agree that a discussion of the relative merits of drunk drivers v rapists is not for this thread so I'll stop there with my own observation.

A lot of people don't report rape because of what the trial is going to be like.

 

[cesare]

Apologies. Part of the argument of the people trying to defend Evans is to play down the effect on the victim and your post could have been seen as grist to that mill. Its clear that isn't what you were doing. Sorry for the shit you've had to go through as well.

Thanks, appreciated

 

[D'wards]

A lot of people don't report rape because of what the trial is going to be like.

This is tricky because one thing everyone deserves is a fair trial, with all the evidence presented. I can't see anyway around this, and the accompanying trauma.

 

[hash tag]

I understand that very few rape cases get reported because of the way the offended is treated by the police, lawyers and so on. I think its also true that the few cases reported proceed to court and get a conviction. Bearing in mind how appalingly the woman in this case has been treated, even fewer people will report this. The defendant in this case has had a horrendeous time and certainly deserves much much better.

 

[toggle]

this looks like worst case scenario because it's all over the internet, but bar the scale of the problem, this is why people don't report rapes by someone they know, someone they have mutual freinds/aquaintances/neighbours etc with, because the judgement and ostracism faced by evans victim is what many women would face. there's so many people who are so much happier to judge the victim than the rapist.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

This is tricky because one thing everyone deserves is a fair trial, with all the evidence presented. I can't see anyway around this, and the accompanying trauma.

There is no real way to avoid the trauma of a trial, often it is said it is akin to be raped all over again. The only thing in this respect is that sentencing should be stiffened to reflect the added rapists cause their victims when going for a not guilty. Not the third off you normally get for a guilty plea, but double time for a not guilty.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I understand that very few rape cases get reported because of the way the offended is treated by the police, lawyers and so on. I think its also true that the few cases reported proceed to court and get a conviction. Bearing in mind how appalingly the woman in this case has been treated, even fewer people will report this. The defendant in this case has had a horrendeous time and certainly deserves much much better.

Defendant?

 

[bluescreen]

Defendant?

An understandable slip, given that the complainant has had to defend herself from so much vilification.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I've been thinking about this for a few days, but in general whilst the effects of rape may not be immediately lethal to the victim, there have been documented cases where the victim has committed suicide directly because of the rape, and there was a case about a decade ago in Scotland where the rape victim committed suicide because the rapist insisted on representing himself at trial and asked her many intrusive questions, culminating in asking her to hold up the underwear she was wearing when she was raped.

A more recent and equally tragic case: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/feb/08/sexual-abuse-victim-killed-herself-trial

 

[toggle]

There is no real way to avoid the trauma of a trial, often it is said it is akin to be raped all over again. The only thing in this respect is that sentencing should be stiffened to reflect the added rapists cause their victims when going for a not guilty. Not the third off you normally get for a guilty plea, but double time for a not guilty.

no. you cannot make rape trials a special case any more than absolutely necessary. eg not allowing defendants to question the victim (and realistically, no defendent in any case of crime against a person should be questioning their victim). the more you separate out rape trials from other court cases with different rules, the more likely you are to get juries refusing to convict. Too many people interpret such rules as feminist conspiracy or other such nonsense and it will increace the perception of the defendent as victim of allegations that would be unprovable in a 'proper court'. these things always seem like a good idea, but I believe they would be hugely counterproductive. we can't fix this problem without fixing society in general

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is tricky because one thing everyone deserves is a fair trial, with all the evidence presented. I can't see anyway around this, and the accompanying trauma.

It's not generally the process of trial itself that causes problems for victims, it's whether the judge gives leeway to the defence that allows the defence to introduce prurient and unnecessary questions of the victim - basically sanctioned intimidation. Unless judges are statutorily directed to not allow such shit, trials will never be fair, especially not for victims.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Perhaps Evans could learn from this: Roy Evans kid left his job rather than sells S*N shite.

Cheers and thanks to BA for posting this elsewhere - Louis MacNeice

 

[toggle]

It's not generally the process of trial itself that causes problems for victims, it's whether the judge gives leeway to the defence that allows the defence to introduce prurient and unnecessary questions of the victim - basically sanctioned intimidation. Unless judges are statutorily directed to not allow such shit, trials will never be fair, especially not for victims.

it's not just the questioning of the victim, it can also be evidence introduced about her. eg mental health history that can be largely based on prejudice rather than any credible belief that long ago treatment for depression would be linked to an allegation made due to delusions or just a tendency to lie. but from what i've read, judges don't often stop questioning because they don't want to prevent a 'fair trial'. this can also be used as a backdoor to introduce comments that the victim has made a prior complaint and prejudice juries against her, lightning doesn't strike the same place twice, a woman can't have been raped more than once, she has to have a history of making false allegations.

 

[marty21]

There is hopefully a positive aspect to the Ched Evans case, all the publicity about the original trial, the conviction, the sentence, the release and his failed attempt to return to the game. This might just filter through to current and future players and maybe they will behave better in the future

 

[Citizen66]

How can turning up to a hotel to fuck a semi-conscious woman you've never met as your mates watch through the window after being invited by text by another toad be anything but a violation of that woman?

Why wasn't mcdonald also collared for being an accessory for a crime at the very least? He instigated it.

 

[equationgirl]

this looks like worst case scenario because it's all over the internet, but bar the scale of the problem, this is why people don't report rapes by someone they know, someone they have mutual freinds/aquaintances/neighbours etc with, because the judgement and ostracism faced by evans victim is what many women would face. there's so many people who are so much happier to judge the victim than the rapist.

And as the whole sorry Savile/Rolf Harris etc affair has shown, if it's someone famous they are often not believed even if they do report.