A question for those who still support a Brexit

[ska invita]

A thread with a poll.

Government officials have put the number of EU citizens living in the UK who will fail to register for settled status as between 10-20%. This could well be an underestimation, but lets say its correct, thats somewhere between 380,000-760,000 people who will become illegal overnight [at present judgement day is June 2021].

As discussed in this thread these people will be unable to rent, work, access the NHS, have a bank account, in short live in the UK. They will be deportable if they dont leave of their own accord.

My question for this thread is: Is this a price worth paying so that Brexit passes? Are you still happy to have a Brexit with this as a conditionality?

My own position is that once Leave won and May said EU citizen rights were protected, I was relatively ambivalent to Brexit happening. But on discovering last xmas that so many people will become illegal, and those that have settled status will have a second class citizenship (again discussed in that linked thread), for me any Brexit that includes the Settled Status process must be stopped.
I dont think this was at all clear before the referendum.

POLL options:
I still want Brexit to happen and the Settled Status process is a price worth paying
I still want Brexit, but only one that doesn't include a Settled Status process (some kind of Freedom of Movement deal)
I supported Brexit but can no longer

 

[A380]

No Spunking cock options.

 

[kebabking]

Those who support brexit, or who might prefer other words to describe their feelings, might be more interested in engaging with the downsides of brexit if remainers were as candid about the EU...

In the last week France and Germany have been publicly talking about building and operating an EU flagged, paid for and commanded Aircraft Carrier.

Yes, an aircraft carrier, with fighters and all the business.

So how do those who espose the benefits of the EU feel about that - have those who, obviously, keep themselves abreast of what the EU does and what it's proposed directions of travel are - have any of them changed their preference?

Or do they just talk shit because they read the Guardian?

 

[mauvais]

The UK and France were, for many years, on about either shared design (QE class) or literal sharing of one or more aircraft carriers. Then the French had a defence review and canned it.

However unless you're better informed I think you've got some way ahead of yourself as this sounds like pie in the sky - e.g. this makes it clear that it's just a vague idea with a lot of obstacles.

 

[kebabking]

The UK and France were, for many years, on about either shared design (QE class) or literal sharing of one or more aircraft carriers. Then the French had a defence review and canned it.

However unless you're better informed I think you've got some way ahead of yourself as this sounds like pie in the sky - e.g. this makes it clear that it's just a vague idea with a lot of obstacles.

There are lots of obstacles to the idea - which is little more than the back of a fag packet, and it will be 20 years or more till it touches the water - but are you denying that it's the direction of travel for the EU?

See what I mean about remainers refusing to be candid about the EU?

 

[mauvais]

There are lots of obstacles to the idea - which is little more than the back of a fag packet, and it will be 20 years or more till it touches the water - but are you denying that it's the direction of travel for the EU?

See what I mean about remainers refusing to be candid about the EU?

I don't know whether it is or isn't the direction. The aspiration and logical unencumbered future direction of the EU would likely be to establish a defence force. However it is very much not unencumbered and very little progress towards organisational/operational collaboration has been made over time, whereas pan-European defence manufacturing projects are nothing new at all. The latter certainly doesn't imply the former. IMO the answer to this question probably lies more in the future of other entities like NATO.

Anyway this is a tangential derail from the OP.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Those who support brexit, or who might prefer other words to describe their feelings, might be more interested in engaging with the downsides of brexit if remainers were as candid about the EU...

In the last week France and Germany have been publicly talking about building and operating an EU flagged, paid for and commanded Aircraft Carrier.

Yes, an aircraft carrier, with fighters and all the business.

So how do those who espose the benefits of the EU feel about that - have those who, obviously, keep themselves abreast of what the EU does and what it's proposed directions of travel are - have any of them changed their preference?

Or do they just talk shit because they read the Guardian?

Does the UK have no say on the direction of travel of the EU, then, if it stays in?

UK is the worst offender of all EU countries for starting wars. France is second on that list. I'll reserve judgement on what I think about the UK losing some sovereignty over when and where it starts wars. Might be a very good thing.

So, back to Settled Status, then, the thing that we know is likely to happen.

 

[kebabking]

Does the UK have no say on the direction of travel of the EU, then, if it stays in?

UK is the worst offender of all EU countries for starting wars. France is second on that list. I'll reserve judgement on what I think about the UK losing some sovereignty over when and where it starts wars. Might be a very good thing.

You think the EU - not individual member states, or groups of member states acting outside the EU - wants an aircraft carrier so it can't start wars?

 

[krtek a houby]

I didn't support it for a good while. And I fear the repercussions for Irish people, north and south of the border. That said, if there's a chance of an end to partition, I support it in that respect.

 

[mauvais]

the EU - not individual member states, or groups of member states acting outside the EU - wants an aircraft carrier

Can you even evidence this as being the case?

Not that it's anything to do with settled status.

 

[A380]

There are lots of obstacles to the idea - which is little more than the back of a fag packet, and it will be 20 years or more till it touches the water - but are you denying that it's the direction of travel for the EU?

See what I mean about remainers refusing to be candid about the EU?

The Chinese are trying to build a proper carrier or seven and the Russians say they want one. Frankly I’d prefer an EU flagged carrier to either of those.

Anyway, I’d bet a small amount of money that whatever happens in the next few weeks re Brexit at some point in the next seven years we will see French aircraft operating at least once from the Queen Elizabeth...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You think the EU - not individual member states, or groups of member states acting outside the EU - wants an aircraft carrier so it can't start wars?

This is really distant, speculative stuff. If there is a proposal to pool defence sovereignty, the UK won't be compelled to comply. And as was said above, there are considerations of NATO etc, also, to consider. Only a pity the referendum wasn't for leaving NATO, really. I'd have been an enthusiastic leaver. How many US military bases are there in the UK? Why the fuck are there any? Not like it's reciprocal. High time that was changed.

But back to settled status.

 

[twentythreedom]

Thread went from 'Brexit' to 'Aircraft Carriers' surprisingly quickly

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thread went from 'Brexit' to 'Aircraft Carriers' surprisingly quickly

Shame there's no named option, but if brexit fans are more worried about aircraft carriers than settled status, I think the option to go for is option a). They can always expand on the reasons in a post.

 

[kebabking]

..anyway, I’d bet a small amount of money that whatever happens in the next few weeks re Brexit at some point in the next seven years we will see French aircraft operating at least once from the Queen Elizabeth...

Nope, wrong type after aircraft/carrier - the French aircraft need catapults and arrestor wires, neither of which the QE boats have or need. UK aircraft won't (seriously) operate from the French carrier because the US won't allow the F-35 anywhere near French 'technicnians'. That's the big reason the idea of a joint UK-French QE fell down....

 

[twentythreedom]

"Remember Trafalgar" as my dad said to a French yachtsman once

 

[A380]

Nope, wrong type after aircraft/carrier - the French aircraft need catapults and arrestor wires, neither of which the QE boats have or need. UK aircraft won't (seriously) operate from the French carrier because the US won't allow the F-35 anywhere near French 'technicnians'. That's the big reason the idea of a joint UK-French QE fell down....

Not so much fast jets, but a large scale French rotary operation (not the club...) perhaps putting ashore elements of their 11th parachute brigade somewhere near the sea in North Africa...

 

[Miss-Shelf]

B

"Remember Trafalgar" as my dad said to a French yachtsman once

Bet ir went well after that!

 

[twentythreedom]

B

Bet ir went well after that!

It's convention, and simply polite, to walk over the bow of a yacht you're moored parallel to and need to cross to reach your own boat.

Going round the stern, therefore seeing the cockpit and into the saloon too, terribly bad form.

I don't remember any further international incidents after that, so probably all was good

 

[Wolveryeti]

In the last week France and Germany have been publicly talking about building and operating an EU flagged, paid for and commanded Aircraft Carrier.

Yes, an aircraft carrier, with fighters and all the business.

So how do those who espose the benefits of the EU feel about that - have those who, obviously, keep themselves abreast of what the EU does and what it's proposed directions of travel are - have any of them changed their preference?

Given how expensive military hardware is, and the diminished role of NATO while Trump is in charge, a pooled military resource sounds very sensible to me as a deterrent, rather than each country fending for themselves and duplicating kit.

 

[kebabking]

Given how expensive military hardware is, and the diminished role of NATO while Trump is in charge, a pooled military resource sounds very sensible to me as a deterrent, rather than each country fending for themselves and duplicating kit.

I take the same view - though having worked in and dealt with the EU military structure it's not, imv, a wise choice as a conduit - but that's not the point of my question...

How many of those who now tell us that the EU is the saviour of civilization would, if the UK wasn't leaving, be howling with indignation that the EU was looking to move into expeditionary combat power projection?

Yet now, not a peep...

 

[Voley]

that's not the point of my question...

I think ska invita might have a strong case for saying the same thing tbf.

 

[isvicthere?]

Thread went from 'Brexit' to 'Aircraft Carriers' surprisingly quickly

Coming soon, 70 million Turks?

 

[planetgeli]

A thread completely fucked up within a few posts, never mind pages. Not good kebabking.

 

[mauvais]

How many of those who now tell us that the EU is the saviour of civilization would, if the UK wasn't leaving, be howling with indignation that the EU was looking to move into expeditionary combat power projection?

Yet now, not a peep...

Again:

Can you even evidence this as being the case?

Not that it's anything to do with settled status.

 

[kebabking]

A thread completely fucked up within a few posts, never mind pages. Not good kebabking.

No, its not a good thread, it's a transparent 'call out' thread that paints those who, for whatever reason, support leaving the EU as being either so thick that they didn't see citizens rights as being a potentially problematic area, or just racist.

That was it - are you thick, or racist.

It also seeks to take a massively complex, pretty much all encompassing relationship between the EU and the UK down to a single issue. Which is vacuous stuff.

As a thread, it's right up there with 'space marines Vs The Empire - who would win?'.

 

[SpineyNorman]

This stuff is the main reason why I didn't vote. I wouldn't vote to stay in the EU to prevent it any more than I'm going to vote tory to keep out ukip or whatever but I'm not voting for it. I wouldn't vote tory to keep out ukip either. That's basically how I see a remain vote - its voting tory to keep out ukip.

Are remainers comfortable having voted for the body that bullied Greece into submission and deliberately impoverished its people simply because it served its interests to do so and wanted to set an example of what happens if you elect a government that goes against the neiberal grain, even if only in rhetoric? The body that's quite happy to allow forced eviction of roma? Brexit will weaken the EU whatever happens, making its eventual disintegration more likely. Voting remain strengthens it. Keeps it alive to do what it did to Greece all over again.

I work with a couple of Greek blokes. They came to the UK because they had to. Because the EU had fucked over their country.

With all the scare stories about brexit and running out of medicines, let's not forget that this happened to Greece within the EU. Hospitals were running out of clean syringes. The EU caused this. If it wasn't for the EU preventing the Greek government from taking measures to alleviate this they wouldn't have come to the UK anyway so definitely wouldn't have to worry about settled status.

Fuck the EU and racist immigration policies. I'm not going to pick one over the other thanks.

 

[krtek a houby]

No, its not a good thread, it's a transparent 'call out' thread that paints those who, for whatever reason, support leaving the EU as being either so thick that they didn't see citizens rights as being a potentially problematic area, or just racist.

That was it - are you thick, or racist.

I think accusations of thickness comes from all sides of the debate, tbf.

Or do they just talk shit because they read the Guardian?

 

[seventh bullet]

No, its not a good thread, it's a transparent 'call out' thread that paints those who, for whatever reason, support leaving the EU as being either so thick that they didn't see citizens rights as being a potentially problematic area, or just racist.

That was it - are you thick, or racist.

It also seeks to take a massively complex, pretty much all encompassing relationship between the EU and the UK down to a single issue. Which is vacuous stuff.

As a thread, it's right up there with 'space marines Vs The Empire - who would win?'.

Bingo.

 

[butchersapron]

Tail gunner joe thread. Well done.