A frank discussion about feminist, marxist and racist *ahem* race ideology etc.

[winifred]

This thread is basically inspired by the 'White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years' thread. The reason I haven't carried on posting within that thread is because it has been pretty much dominated by peoples' online vitriol towards Rachel Dolezal, (either rightly or wrongly).

And I get that people are outraged by a 'white' person identifying herself as being 'black'. But setting aside the fact that this thread is inspired by that story, I really want to get a discussion going about the influence that gender, class and race have on societies around the world - rather than getting into a protracted argument about somebody allegedly 'blacking up'.

I propose the following:

Everything we know and experience re: gender and racial identity stems from socially constructed norms that have been determined by the ruling classes (i.e. through the ownership of capital); scientific racism; as well as from the perpetuation of racial and gender sterotypes through word-of-mouth / 'common sense' assumptions that have developed over the generations.

Based on the above, I would argue that patriarchy and theories on capitalism - as espoused by feminist and marxist ideology respectively - do much to explain why concepts of gender and race are not as straightforward as some might think. Both are essentially fluid concepts, which are heavily influenced by (often changing) political and cultural values.

Therefore, despite the fact that some have argued recently that the term 'transracial' has largely been misrepresented in recent times, I would argue against this given that race is an inherently made-up concept. And by truly acknowledging this fact, we can all aspire to being 'transracial' i.e. insofar as we transgress the age-old perceived racial differences, which have served to divide people.

Race had always been about acknowledging difference and associated status, whereas what we need to do is to focus on commonalities i.e. what we have in common with each other, in spite of what our outward appearance might suggest.

I might have gone on to give my views on the overarching/worldwide dominance and influence of patriarchy, but I remember from my old university days that (as a man) I couldn't truly label myself as a 'feminist' - purely because of my gender i.e. not having a lived experience. Does this perhaps share similarities with somebody who purports to represent and fight the Black cause, but who is dismissed because of her 'white' heritage?

 

[butchersapron]

What's the 'labour theory of capital' that marxists espouse? Do you mean the labour theory of value? Can you outline the relevance of that particular (often misunderstood) aspect of marx's writing on classic/capitalist economics here/in your post? Looks to me like it's just been rather thrown in there, but maybe i've missed something.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

(((theory forum)))

 

[Greebo]

This thread is basically inspired by the 'White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years' thread. The reason I haven't carried on posting within that thread is because it has been pretty much dominated by peoples' online vitriol towards Rachel Dolezal, (either rightly or wrongly).

<snip>Does this perhaps share similarities with who purports to represent and fight the Black cause, but who is dismissed because of her 'white' heritage?

If yoy report your first post and ask a mod to move it, they'll transfer it to here,
http://www.urban75.net/forums/forums/theory-philosophy-history.41/
where you'll get a far more sensible discussion.

 

[winifred]

What's the 'labour theory of capital' that marxists espouse? Do you mean the labour theory of value? Can you outline the relevance of that particular (often misunderstood) aspect of marx's writing on classic/capitalist economics here/in your post? Looks to me like it's just been rather thrown in there, but maybe i've missed something.

Sorry, I misremembered my marxist teachings from when I studied sociological theories at university. I have corrected my sentence within the OP to represent what I intially intended to type.

 

[winifred]

If yoy report your first post and ask a mod to move it, they'll transfer it to here,
http://www.urban75.net/forums/forums/theory-philosophy-history.41/
where you'll get a far more sensible discussion.

Thanks for that Greebo. I will do just that.

 

[Pickman's model]

This thread is basically inspired by the 'White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years' thread. The reason I haven't carried on posting within that thread is because it has been pretty much dominated by peoples' online vitriol towards Rachel Dolezal, (either rightly or wrongly).

And I get that people are outraged by a 'white' person identifying herself as being 'black'. But setting aside the fact that this thread is inspired by that story, I really want to get a discussion going about the influence that gender, class and race have on societies around the world - rather than getting into a protracted argument about somebody allegedly 'blacking up'.

I propose the following:

Everything we know and experience re: gender and racial identity stems from socially constructed norms that have been determined by the ruling classes (i.e. through the ownership of capital); scientific racism; as well as from the perpetuation of racial and gender sterotypes through word-of-mouth / 'common sense' assumptions that have developed over the generations.

Based on the above, I would argue that patriarchy and theories on capitalism - as espoused by feminist and marxist ideology respectively - do much to explain why concepts of gender and race are not as straightforward as some might think. Both are essentially fluid concepts, which are heavily influenced by (often changing) political and cultural values.

Therefore, despite the fact that some have argued recently that the term 'transracial' has largely been misrepresented in recent times, I would argue against this given that race is an inherently made-up concept. And by truly acknowledging this fact, we can all aspire to being 'transracial' i.e. insofar as we transgress the age-old perceived racial differences, which have served to divide people.

Race had always been about acknowledging difference and associated status, whereas what we need to do is to focus on commonalities i.e. what we have in common with each other, in spite of what our outward appearance might suggest.

I might have gone on to give my views on the overarching/worldwide dominance and influence of patriarchy, but I remember from my old university days that (as a man) I couldn't truly label myself as a 'feminist' - purely because of my gender i.e. not having a lived experience. Does this perhaps share similarities with somebody who purports to represent and fight the Black cause, but who is dismissed because of her 'white' heritage?

you could just have said that - from marx - 'the ruling ideas of every age are the ideas of the ruling class', but that this is problematised by 'ideas from below' mixing in with these ideas from above. in addition, i put it to you that there are in fact more ideas about now than there have ever previously been, since more people than ever before have the opportunity to see their thoughts in print, be that print electronick or physical. as well as this - from thompson - people's ideas of themselves are not statick - the experience of class is not some dry definition but one's everyday experience, which if one were able to take a sliver of would not explain to an observer what one's experience of class was like. it's the same with race, gender etc etc.

but as you say people need to focus on the common experiences, and i would suggest those are the common class experiences which are what most people share whether one is white black brown or whatnot.

 

[Treacle Toes]

This thread is basically inspired by the 'White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years' thread. The reason I haven't carried on posting within that thread is because it has been pretty much dominated by peoples' online vitriol towards Rachel Dolezal, (either rightly or wrongly).

And I get that people are outraged by a 'white' person identifying herself as being 'black'. But setting aside the fact that this thread is inspired by that story, I really want to get a discussion going about the influence that gender, class and race have on societies around the world - rather than getting into a protracted argument about somebody allegedly 'blacking up'.

Does this perhaps share similarities with somebody who purports to represent and fight the Black cause, but who is dismissed because of her 'white' heritage?

 

[Pickman's model]

I might have gone on to give my views on the overarching/worldwide dominance and influence of patriarchy, but I remember from my old university days that (as a man) I couldn't truly label myself as a 'feminist' - purely because of my gender i.e. not having a lived experience. Does this perhaps share similarities with somebody who purports to represent and fight the Black cause, but who is dismissed because of her 'white' heritage?

from wikipedia:

Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

which part of that says 'a man can't be a feminist'?

 

[friedaweed]

It's threads like this that are ruining the general forum

 

[Pickman's model]

It's threads like this that are ruining the general forum

not only that it's threads like this, into which the op's put no discernible thought or effort, which are ruining the boards

 

[trabuquera]

Are existing categories of "race" and "sex" influenced by history and our rulers? Yes, of course they are.
Are they questionable, do they blur round the edges? Yes, of course they are and do.
Does that mean they "don't exist" or "are irrelevant to anything" - No it doesn't.

You seem to argue that by simply agreeing to shake on it and forget all about races ever having existed, racism will magically disappear. Maybe it will have disappeared several millennia after us; but probably not before some fairly serious re-thinks and rebalancing of our current (and yes, racist) way of organising the world.

Is this making things any clearer?

And again: I don't know which kind of feminists you ever met who convinced you a man 'couldn't be a feminist' - but that is very definitely a minority view and not one all women, or even all feminists, share or ever have done. which does make me wonder if you're trolling a bit?

 

[andysays]

from wikipedia:

Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

which part of that says 'a man can't be a feminist'?

No part of that says 'a man can't be a feminist', but there are some schools and or individuals who argue that men can't be proper or complete feminists, though they are permitted to be "allies" if they meet certain conditions.

in fact I think we had a thread about this very subject not that long ago.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This thread is basically inspired by the 'White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years' thread. The reason I haven't carried on posting within that thread is because it has been pretty much dominated by peoples' online vitriol towards Rachel Dolezal, (either rightly or wrongly).

And I get that people are outraged by a 'white' person identifying herself as being 'black'. But setting aside the fact that this thread is inspired by that story, I really want to get a discussion going about the influence that gender, class and race have on societies around the world - rather than getting into a protracted argument about somebody allegedly 'blacking up'.

That's a misrepresentation of that thread, btw. It's been far more wide-ranging than that. It's just that you got yourself into some *ahem* trouble on it.

I predict more trouble ahead I'm afraid...

 

[Pickman's model]

No part of that says 'a man can't be a feminist', but there are some schools and or individuals who argue that men can't be proper or complete feminists, though they are permitted to be "allies" if they meet certain conditions.

in fact I think we had a thread about this very subject not that long ago.

yes. but as you note there are traditions which say a man can be a feminist which winifred denies.

 

[winifred]

you could just have said that - from marx - 'the ruling ideas of every age are the ideas of the ruling class', but that this is problematised by 'ideas from below' mixing in with these ideas from above.

From what I posted previously, I'm obviously not an expert on Marxist ideology, but I do have a basic understanding. In any case, my main point re: marxist philosophy is that a capitalist system typically creates great amounts of wealth for a minority of people at the expense of the vast majority of people. I would also argue that race and racism has it's roots in the development of capitalism within Western societies re: the slave trade, where black people were effectively regarded as 'commodities'. The subsequent development of a race 'science' gave credence to and legitimised the wholesale abuse and exploitation of African peoples' who were forced into slavery.

in addition, i put it to you that there are in fact more ideas about now than there have ever previously been, since more people than ever before have the opportunity to see their thoughts in print, be that print electronick or physical. as well as this - from thompson - people's ideas of themselves are not statick - the experience of class is not some dry definition but one's everyday experience, which if one were able to take a sliver of would not explain to an observer what one's experience of class was like. it's the same with race, gender etc etc.

Yes, I pretty much agree with you. It's often through reading peoples' own narratives that we begin to gain a better appreciation of others' lived experiences, but we'll never really get it completely. We can take a leaf from Jarvis' song book to exemplify this:

#You will never understand
How it feels to live your life
With no meaning or control
And with nowhere left to go
You are amazed that they exist
And they burn so bright whilst you can only wonder why.
Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school
But still you'll never get it right
Cause when you're laid in bed at night
Watching... Roaches climb the wall
If you called your Dad he could stop it all, Yeah.#

but as you say people need to focus on the common experiences, and i would suggest those are the common class experiences which are what most people share whether one is white black brown or whatnot.

And that's part of the point I'm trying to make. The vast majority of us are engaged in a common struggle within a global capitalist system, which serves to enslave us all at the behest of a small minority of people. I would also add that you missed out gender, given that the global capitalist system is also predicated on patriarchy.

 

[toggle]

No part of that says 'a man can't be a feminist', but there are some schools and or individuals who argue that men can't be proper or complete feminists, though they are permitted to be "allies" if they meet certain conditions.

in fact I think we had a thread about this very subject not that long ago.

IME, this is a view that is becoming less common as mainstream feminism is moving further into an understanding of the damage that patriarchy does to men. even more so when you hold the view that we need men to speak out about issues like street harassment because the people who are reachable on that topic still aren't listening to women, but are far more likely to listen to men telling them to wind it in.

The ally thing is to me about where you consider your role to be. and a lot of it is about the 'rule' that wozzerface has broken. which is about not appointing yourself a spokesperson for a group without invitation (based on something other than lies and delusions) or at the least, without lived experience.

 

[winifred]

That's a misrepresentation of that thread, btw. It's been far more wide-ranging than that. It's just that you got yourself into some *ahem* trouble on it.

I don't believe I did get into any 'trouble' within that thread. The fact that mine was one of a few dissenting voices doesn't mean say that I was wrong to post up what I did.

I predict more trouble ahead I'm afraid...

I prefer to be more optimistic about things. You can always try to find some positives from a seemingly bad situation - even if it's to bring various issues to the fore so as to learn from each other, and to potentially educate others (as in the 'White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years' thread).

 

[winifred]

yes. but as you note there are traditions which say a man can be a feminist which winifred denies.

I didn't say that I denied anything. I'm just relating it to my own experience within academia, which relates to a particular course that I was studying in the early nineties. Therefore, I'm pretty much out of touch with what current feminist ideology espouses re: the legitimacy of males to regards themselves as 'feminists'.

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't say that I denied anything. I'm just relating it to my own experience within academia, which relates to a particular course that I was studying in the early nineties. Therefore, I'm pretty much out of touch with what current feminist ideology espouses re: the legitimacy of males to regards themselves as 'feminists'.

yes sounds like you were oot then too

 

[DotCommunist]

I predict more trouble ahead I'm afraid...

but while theres moonlight and music and love and romance...

 

[bi0boy]

you could just have said that - from marx - 'the ruling ideas of every age are the ideas of the ruling class', but that this is problematised by 'ideas from below' mixing in with these ideas from above. in addition, i put it to you that there are in fact more ideas about now than there have ever previously been, since more people than ever before have the opportunity to see their thoughts in print, be that print electronick or physical. as well as this - from thompson - people's ideas of themselves are not statick - the experience of class is not some dry definition but one's everyday experience, which if one were able to take a sliver of would not explain to an observer what one's experience of class was like. it's the same with race, gender etc etc.

but as you say people need to focus on the common experiences, and i would suggest those are the common class experiences which are what most people share whether one is white black brown or whatnot.

I got as far as "problematised" fyi

 

[Pickman's model]

but while theres moonlight and music and love and romance...

and dancing

 

[Pickman's model]

I got as far as "problematised" fyi

well done. that's a great improvement on even a week ago

 

[winifred]

yes sounds like you were oot then too

And it sounds like you're trying to put a Scottish tinge to your post. In any case, that's what was put to me at the time when I was doing a social sciences degree re: men and feminist theory.

 

[Pickman's model]

And it sounds like you're trying to put a Scottish tinge to your post. In any case, that's what was put to me at the time when I was doing a social sciences degree re: men and feminist theory.

oot = out of touch. how can you do a soc sci degree w/out gaining some familiarity with marx's social thought?

 

[Supine]

Over intellectualising a load of different thing imo.

'Everything we know and experience re: gender and racial identity stems from socially constructed norms that have been determined by the ruling classes (i.e. through the ownership of capital)'

gender and racial identity determined by the ruling classes? Don't think so - anyone can or cannot determine this - for themselves - rightly or wrongly.

 

[winifred]

Are existing categories of "race" and "sex" influenced by history and our rulers? Yes, of course they are.
Are they questionable, do they blur round the edges? Yes, of course they are and do.
Does that mean they "don't exist" or "are irrelevant to anything" - No it doesn't.

I'm not saying that they don't exist or are irrelevant. What I'm saying is that these concepts are mostly based on false 'truths'.

You seem to argue that by simply agreeing to shake on it and forget all about races ever having existed, racism will magically disappear. Maybe it will have disappeared several millennia after us; but probably not before some fairly serious re-thinks and rebalancing of our current (and yes, racist) way of organising the world.

No, I'm saying that 'race' and 'gender' are often taken for granted concepts that need to be scrutinised and unpicked in order to rebalance the general perceptions that people have.

Is this making things any clearer?

Yes, I understand where you're coming from.

And again: I don't know which kind of feminists you ever met who convinced you a man 'couldn't be a feminist' - but that is very definitely a minority view and not one all women, or even all feminists, share or ever have done. which does make me wonder if you're trolling a bit?

No, I'm not trolling. That was a genuine proposition that was put to me during my student days.

 

[winifred]

oot = out of touch. how can you do a soc sci degree w/out gaining some familiarity with marx's social thought?

Probably because I never got past the second year of studying it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Over intellectualising a load of different thing imo.

'Everything we know and experience re: gender and racial identity stems from socially constructed norms that have been determined by the ruling classes (i.e. through the ownership of capital)'

gender and racial identity determined by the ruling classes? Don't think so - anyone can or cannot determine this - for themselves - rightly or wrongly.

don't talk such tosh, it ill becomes you