£400 fine for dumping - help

[muscovyduck]

Thanks all - there is some great advice on this.
I will fight them on the beaches etc

I know it's your box, and it's obvious it's your box, but don't fall into the trap of admitting it. Cid 's template letter is really good imo

 

[pogofish]

Is Lambeth’s litter enforcement still contracted to a private company? 2016 was when they seem to have handed it over to NSL.

So if you are pursuing this by phone, ensure you are speaking to the council, not the contractor - Private litter enforcement does not have a good record when it comes to playing by the rules when they spy an easy target.

Also, a £400 penalty - is this being treated as flytipping Instead of littering? Different standards of proof/evidence may apply. IIRC a typical penalty for littering is lower - around £100?

 

[krtek a houby]

Thanks all - there is some great advice on this.
I will fight them on the beaches etc

And make sure to tidy up afterwards.

 

[Cadmus]

They have evidence that the box belonged to you. They do not have evidence that you left it there (e.g. CCTV).

Unless they can prove that you left it there so that the court is sure (=beyond reasonable doubt), they have no case.

Dispute it. There is no reason to be super polite and write platitudes about how fly tipping is a serious problem...

Simply write back saying (1) you deny the offence, (2) they have disclosed no evidence that you placed it there. (3) you will not pay the fine and (4) they can try to prove it in court.

It's highly unlikely this will get to court because once a lawyer reviews it, it will be dropped.

 

[Roadkill]

As others have already said, the fact the box was there doesn't mean that you put it there, and unless they can prove that you did to the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' they have no case. I think Cid's letter template is excellent, except that I'd be inclined to add a line for the avoidance of doubt stating that you deny the offence, won't pay the FPN and will fight your corner in court if needs be.

 

[CNT36]

Have just received a fixed penalty notice from Lambeth for £400 (250 if paid quickly) for dumping
There is a photo of a cardboard box (with my name and address on it) on top of a plastic bin bag sitting on the pavement on Brixton hill

Problem is - I don't live on Brixton Hill. I put all my recycling into my green bin. I didn't dump it there

There is no right of appeal according to the letter "if you disagree that you have committed an offence you can decide not to pay the penalty and the matter will then be decided by a court"

Any ideas on how to resolve this ?


PS - I find littering on the street abhorent - it wasn't me

ETA If it helps, the letter says the offence was "on the highway in Brixtom (sic) Hill SW2 3**" That postcode is my home postcode - it isn't Brixton hill, or Brixtom

Definitely not from an entrepreneur who has been fishing in your recycling box?

 

[pogofish]

This legislation is confusing as shit, because it's doing amendments.

There is/was some fairly detailed guidance on how local authorities (and their contractors) should apply the legislation on the DEFRA website for England and Wales.

I’m not up to date on this stuff because I moved to other work @2016 but occasionally, the kind of ”budget hacks” used by our students in their research projects could fall foul of an enthusiastic litter warden - eg yoghurt pot insect traps or water bottles used to waterproof microphones, so we always tried to direct them to the appropriate guidance for the areas they were working-in.

Any English authority’s policy that I had sight-of followed the guidance completely.

 

[Athos]

nick under what legislation do they purport to have issued this fixed penalty notice?

Eta: it'd probably be easier to post a scan/photo of the letter with any personal info redacted.

 

[Chilli.s]

Is the letter totally legit? I'm wondering how much additional info (or a cheque) could be fished up with this type of threat.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

fell off the back of a (bin) lorry innit.

 

[nick]

Thanks All - here is the letter.
I suspect it is legit - even if not espousing the highest production values. cf typos plus the date of jan 2020

 

[spanglechick]

Thanks All - here is the letter.
I suspect it is legit - even if not espousing the highest production values. cf typos plus the date of jan 2020

Hmm. So presumably the other box has someone else’s address on it?

 

[prunus]

Thanks All - here is the letter.
I suspect it is legit - even if not espousing the highest production values. cf typos plus the date of jan 2020

Yes I reckon that's legit.

However absolutely don't pay it. Use something like one of the form letters above. Also add something like the the best of your belief the location shown in the photograph is not SW2 3DN (I'm pretty sure it's not having checked google streetmap - you'll likely be more sure as you live there!). I am reasonably sure that it is in fact Brixton Hill, outside M&D Food and Wine here:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

 

[nick]

prunus.
Looks like is has timetravelled as it also appears to be in that streetview dated Aug 20 !!

 

[Athos]

It looks genuine. But, if it was me and I'd not done it, I'd ignore it completely. What's the chances of them actually prosecuting this? And, should they do so, proving beyond reasonable doubt that you committed the offence?

 

[nick]

It looks genuine. But, if it was me and I'd not done it, I'd ignore it completely. What's the chances of them actually prosecuting this? And, should they do so, proving beyond reasonable doubt that you committed the offence?

You're probably right but I read the Trial at a formative age and have a great fear of entering some sort of Kafkaeque nightmare that ends up with me being shipped to Gitmo in an orange suit.
Or worse, writing a stern letter to the Times in green ink

 

[existentialist]

It looks genuine. But, if it was me and I'd not done it, I'd ignore it completely. What's the chances of them actually prosecuting this? And, should they do so, proving beyond reasonable doubt that you committed the offence?

I think this is bad advice. Far better to nip it in the bud and make the LA/contractor aware early on that there's going to be pushback than spend weeks waiting for the dreaded Brown Envelope through the post.

 

[Athos]

I think this is bad advice. Far better to nip it in the bud and make the LA/contractor aware early on that there's going to be pushback than spend weeks waiting for the dreaded Brown Envelope through the post.

There's very little to be gained by saying anything. It's like answering police questions when they have insufficient evidence to charge; you're more likely to make things worse than better. He's going to be waiting for an envelope either way.

 

[Athos]

You're probably right but I read the Trial at a formative age and have a great fear of entering some sort of Kafkaeque nightmare that ends up with me being shipped to Gitmo in an orange suit.
Or worse, writing a stern letter to the Times in green ink

That's more likely if you engage with them, honestly!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is Lambeth’s litter enforcement still contracted to a private company? 2016 was when they seem to have handed it over to NSL.

So if you are pursuing this by phone, ensure you are speaking to the council, not the contractor - Private litter enforcement does not have a good record when it comes to playing by the rules when they spy an easy target.

Also, a £400 penalty - is this being treated as flytipping Instead of littering? Different standards of proof/evidence may apply. IIRC a typical penalty for littering is lower - around £100?

It looks like it's being treated as flytipping, which is novel, given how rarely the council goes after flytippers.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

Easy target. Real fly tippers have mud all over the number plates of their anonymous van. They make sure none of the rubbish can be traced back to them and they dump it in a farmer's field, not on council property, where they know there are people employed to go after them.

 

[Aladdin]

This is why I remove my name and address from everything I put in the recycle bin. I also have one of those rollers that inks over names etc....I quite like using it

 

[DietCokeGirl]

I know this doesnt help with your original query but please destroy your name/address from post - we get people trying letterboxes and going through the green bins for info for identity theft all the time, over here in sw9. Me and most of my neighbours have had bank accounts or cards taken out in their names fraudulently at various times. Be careful.

 

[nick]

I know this doesnt help with your original query but please destroy your name/address from post - we get people trying letterboxes and going through the green bins for info for identity theft all the time, over here in sw9. Me and most of my neighbours have had bank accounts or cards taken out in their names fraudulently at various times. Be careful.

Yep _ I got caught with that in 2002. first I knew of a fraudulent phone contract debt was when a collection agency found me at my new address. I tried reasoning but it only went away when I wrote to their CEO + the Data commissioner and everyone else I could think of and cc'd each of them

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Thanks All - here is the letter.
I suspect it is legit - even if not espousing the highest production values. cf typos plus the date of jan 2020

if you do with to them I would note that you flattened the box before putting it in the recycling bin, as confirmed by the photograph. (I did wonder about that).

Maybe ask them where you can report theft of property from your green wheelie bin?

 

[Aladdin]

Am I right in thinking that once the rubbish goes into the bin it is not your property anymore?
Or is that just me having a brain fart..

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Am I right in thinking that once the rubbish goes into the bin it is not your property anymore?
Or is that just me having a brain fart..

Bit of a grey area. People can be done for e.g. 'theft by finding' for dumpster diving.

 

[nick]

Is there a number you can call? Maybe try your local councillor?

So today I wrote a carefully worded email to environmental protection and a physical letter.

I cc'd Councillors Atkins (my ward) and Garden (Brixton Hill ward) on the email

Exactly 1 hour and 9 minutes after I sent the email this was sent?

Please keep me updated on your response to my Streatham Hill constituent, Mr XXXXX. It is clear to me that no offence was actually committed and even if it was, he was not the person responsible.

I would be grateful if you would clarify what you regard as the ‘offence’ committed so that residents are clear of the rules and confirm that the penalty notice will be rescinded.

Best regards

Liz

Liz Atkins

Labour Councillor for Streatham Hill

Chair of Overview and Scrutiny Committee

I forget whether or not Ms Atkins in considered "on side" by the Urban hivemind, but credit where it is due: that was a really impressive response

 

[nick]

And for those of you on Brixton Hill, here is extract of an email to Cllr Garden in respect of waste management, FYI

Dear Mr Garden
I write to you in your capacity as Councillor for Brixton Hill, regarding an ongoing waste management issue

• There are no waste bins provided for the residential properties at xxxxx Brixton Hill, having been removed in 2015 (see attached notification).
• Residents have been asked to leave rubbish on the pavement in plastic sacks for regular collections (which do not always align with the timetable notified).
• Unfortunately, the sacks are often damaged prior to collection, with waste being spilled on the street. Similarly, residents have been orally advised by Lambeth staff to leave sharp edged boxes etc on top of the sacks, to prevent them being cut. Such waste can also spread into the street. This link to Google Street view shows the current situation.
• Residents have several times requested that Lambeth provide bins for the safe disposal of domestic waste, to no avail.
• Residents have recently been receiving penalty notices in respect of alleged domestic waste infringements, despite following the instructions detailed above (see emails below)
• I appreciate that reckless waste disposal is a serious problem for all councils and have always disposed of waste according to council guidelines. In the case of Brixton Hill I am concerned that current waste provisions are unsuitable for in maintaining the quality of the environment

I would be grateful if you could assist in getting the council to provide suitable waste containers provided for both New Park Court and any other flats on Brixton Hill, which may be in a similar situation.

I look forward to hearing from you

Thank you in advance

Cid - hope you spot the ghost of your suggested wording in the above. Thanks

 

[nick]

It would appear that this has now escalated so that half of Lambeth's considerable bureaucracy may now be involved in the case in one capacity or another.
This from Cllr Garden just now

Hi all, (plus Members Enquiries)
I’ve come in on this rather late, but I notice that there has been no response yet from enforcement to the very legitimate arguments xx xxxx and xx xxxxxx have addressed to you.

I am particularly concerned to support them as rubbish collection from xxx xxxx Court and some other premises sitting on the pavement of Brixton Hill and New Park Road has never been satisfactorily addressed.

Could the particular case of this penalty notice be addressed expeditiously and then a wider ranging consideration of rubbish collection from properties without a front garden be undertaken?

In order to expedite both these actions, I’ve turned them into a Members Enquiry


Adrian Garden
Chair of Corporate Committee
Labour Councillor for Brixton Hill