£400 fine for dumping - help

[nick]

Have just received a fixed penalty notice from Lambeth for £400 (250 if paid quickly) for dumping
There is a photo of a cardboard box (with my name and address on it) on top of a plastic bin bag sitting on the pavement on Brixton hill

Problem is - I don't live on Brixton Hill. I put all my recycling into my green bin. I didn't dump it there

There is no right of appeal according to the letter "if you disagree that you have committed an offence you can decide not to pay the penalty and the matter will then be decided by a court"

Any ideas on how to resolve this ?


PS - I find littering on the street abhorent - it wasn't me

ETA If it helps, the letter says the offence was "on the highway in Brixtom (sic) Hill SW2 3**" That postcode is my home postcode - it isn't Brixton hill, or Brixtom

 

[editor]

Is there a number you can call? Maybe try your local councillor?

 

[Raheem]

Contact the council. The "will then be decided by a court" wording is to intimidate you, but the guidance is that they are supposed consider any complaint you make about the penalty. They might withdraw it if you can convince them that it won't be an open-and-shut court case

 

[Boudicca]

Do you recognise the cardboard box?

I don't think the fact that it was found on Brixton Hill proves it wasn't you. If you were going to dump stuff, it wouldn't necessarily be next to your home.

But I think they would need better proof that it was you than an address on a box, which could easily have been passed on by you to someone else, it would have to be on a letter inside the bag.

 

[nick]

Do you recognise the cardboard box?
I don't think the fact that it was found on Brixton Hill proves it wasn't you. If you were going to dump stuff, it wouldn't necessarily be next to your home.
But I think they would need better proof that it was you than an address on a box, which could easily have been passed on by you to someone else, it would have to be on a letter inside the bag.

Yes it is my box, with my name and address on it. but I didn't dump it there. I have a green bin, into which I put my recycling.

Does my responsibility for it extend to the point that it gets to Smugglers Way, (or not) ?

Not sure what the burden of proof would be if it went to court? They can't prove I put it there, could have been someone else. conversely, how can I prove that I didn't?

Will try to find out who is my local councillor, but trying to find a way to contact the council first

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Have you had any parcels/post go missing? Is it possible it's the packaging from an intercepted delivery? Has someone maybe knocked one of your parcels and dumped packaging? Although if that's the case, it'd probably be helpful if you had documented a missing parcel via email or form/some form of communication between you and vendor/courier so could show some kind of proof.

 

[nick]

No it is definitely my box. I know what it was for - it was for something delivered on 17 December. (to where I live). The penalty notice / photo is from 30 December - so almost 2 weeks later and 1 mile away

But it being my box, doesn't mean I dumped it. I know I didn't, but how can I convince them?

 

[Cid]

Have just received a fixed penalty notice from Lambeth for £400 (250 if paid quickly) for dumping
There is a photo of a cardboard box (with my name and address on it) on top of a plastic bin bag sitting on the pavement on Brixton hill

Problem is - I don't live on Brixton Hill. I put all my recycling into my green bin. I didn't dump it there

There is no right of appeal according to the letter "if you disagree that you have committed an offence you can decide not to pay the penalty and the matter will then be decided by a court"

Any ideas on how to resolve this ?


PS - I find littering on the street abhorent - it wasn't me

ETA If it helps, the letter says the offence was "on the highway in Brixtom (sic) Hill SW2 3**" That postcode is my home postcode - it isn't Brixton hill, or Brixtom

Judging by Croydon's website, this is a fixed penalty notice for an environmental offence. Lambeth has something similar on their site, but doesn't give the nice summary (the fines may vary). I think you can follow through the links on the Lambeth site to fill in an enquiry.

The important thing from the Croydon website is that it notes these are criminal offences, and that they need to be proved to the criminal standard - i.e beyond reasonable doubt.

An offence has to be proved beyond doubt to the criminal court standard of proof before an FPN can be considered.

If you can follow through that enquiry form, write something polite, don't wander off, stick to the point. 'Dear Sir/Madam. I have been issued with an FPN on Brixton Hill. I have always carefully disposed of waste according to council guidelines, and do not live in the area where the offence is reported. Please let me know if I can take this enquiry further with you, or provide me with the details of someone who is able to do that'.

Then do something similar for what ever contact they give you. I guess it's under this offence <e2a: that may not be right>:

Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005

An Act to amend section 6 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998; to make provision for the gating of certain minor highways; to make provision in relation to vehicles parked on roads that are exposed for sale or being repaired; to make provision in relation to abandoned vehicles and the removal and...

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Is that road on the refuse truck route? Is it possible the packaging fell off the back of the lorry?

 

[Struwwelpeter]

The burden of proof is always on the prosecution. The issue is what standard of proof is required. Don't learn your law from Priti Patel!

You could try putting together a timeline and getting the council to disprove it.

Can you remember the particular package? Did you actually receive it? When did you receive it? Was it signed for? Do you know which date you recycled it in your bin? Was the bin particularly full that day? What time did you put the bin out and what time did the council's contractor make the collection?

Sometimes if the bins are collected late, people put incompatible waste in them and so don't get emptied. Has the reverse happened here? A useful box on top of an overflowing bin was used by someone?

All this might be irrelevant, or might help, but if you can answer some of the questions and put some of the questions to the council, it might show that it is not worth their effort fighting the case.

 

[Cid]

This legislation is confusing as shit, because it's doing amendments.

 

[nick]

Is that road on the refuse truck route? Is it possible the packaging fell off the back of the lorry?

Possible - whether the truck does my house then brixton hill, I have no idea. Seems unlikely.
I guess that is kind of the problem - no one can say what happened as there was no tracker on the box.

There is no denying that the box was owned by me at some point. No one saw me dumping it (becausue I didn't) - the rest is unprovable one way or the other

 

[Cid]

Ah yeah, it's something like this:

The offence is under s.46 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 ("the EPA") as amended by the Clean Neighbourhoods Act 2005. Issuance of the fine is, I think, under 47ZA, and 47ZB, also amended by the 2005 legislation.

Environmental Protection Act 1990

An Act to make provision for the improved control of pollution arising from certain industrial and other processes; to re-enact the provisions of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 relating to waste on land with modifications as respects the functions of the regulatory and other authorities...

www.legislation.gov.uk

<e2a: I put s.46 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 ("the EPA") as an example of formatting, then didn't bother making it into a proper example. Obviously only word it like that if you refer to the EPA more than once>

 

[existentialist]

No it is definitely my box. I know what it was for - it was for something delivered on 17 December. (to where I live). The penalty notice / photo is from 30 December - so almost 2 weeks later and 1 mile away

But it being my box, doesn't mean I dumped it. I know I didn't, but how can I convince them?

I think this is quite typical of the way things are going, particularly with public sector bodies - go for the line of least resistance, browbeat with threats, and hope they cough up or comply.

As others have said, I think that if you set out your stall clearly, and make it clear that you are going to robustly challenge their allegation, and that you're not prepared to accept the existence of your name on the box as evidence that you were flytipping, they'll probably drop it. It's a try-on. Worst case, it goes to court - you could reasonably represent yourself, because all you would have to do would be to ask them to present their evidence that YOU dumped a box in the place they say you did. Having your name on the label is not evidence of you having done that.

In my various house moves over the years (and particularly recently), I was collecting cardboard boxes to pack things in. Quite a few of those had other people's names and addresses on, so I could in theory have dumped them, and the original recipients would (in Lambeth) have been hit with a fine, which is clearly ludicrous.

Partly because of identity theft, and partly to avoid the kind of thing that has happened to you arising for me, I try to remove or deface all address labels on any boxes I do throw out. I tear off the portion of letters with the address on when I put them in the recycling, too.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Yes it is my box, with my name and address on it. but I didn't dump it there. I have a green bin, into which I put my recycling.

Does my responsibility for it extend to the point that it gets to Smugglers Way, (or not) ?

Not sure what the burden of proof would be if it went to court? They can't prove I put it there, could have been someone else. conversely, how can I prove that I didn't?

Will try to find out who is my local councillor, but trying to find a way to contact the council first

I am in a different borough but when trying to get hold of flytipping people I could only ring in and go through a long button pressing adventure. When I did speak to someone they were very helpful and got it sorted in no time (even gave me direct email addresses and phone numbers for if I wasn't happy). I did have to ring as soon as the lines opened in the morning though, or I couldn't get through at all.

 

[quimcunx]

You could point out that you have a perfectly good recycling bin on your property and you put the box in that. You have no reason to go a mile out of your way to dump a box with your name and address on it.

Was the box flattened in the photo? Had you flattened it before binning?

Either way it is good practice to remove your name and address from any packaging or letters that you bin from an identity theft pov*. Also you are meant to flatten boxes before binning.

*If someone has been in your bin and removed things with your name and address on I would recommend you keep an eye on your credit files.

 

[prunus]

Are you sure the photo is of the box on Brixton Hill? From the wording you use it reads like they're using Brixton Hill as an area name, with the postcode of your actual road used as the place of the offence. To be wary of in claiming it happened a mile away.

 

[Cid]

Probably the best thing to do is chase the phone route as ATOMIC SUPLEX did.

If you have to write, I would word it something like this:


Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your time. I have been issued a Penalty Charge Notice for <exactly what it says> at <exactly where it says>. As I understand it this notice is issued under ss.46-47 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 ("the EPA"), as Amended by the Clean Neighbourhoods Act 2005. Issuance of PCNs under the EPA must meet the criminal standard of proof; it must be shown beyond reasonable doubt that I left the waste where it was found.

I do appreciate that this is a serious problem for all councils, and indeed have always disposed of waste according to council guidelines. My issue is that my address being on the package in no way proves that I disposed of it there. I do not live near the location provided, and there are more likely scenarios as to how it got there; for example waste falling from a collection vehicle. It seems unlikely on those grounds that the court will enforce this notice, and I hope we can resolve this without recourse to them.

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to review this,

Yours sincerely,

Nick

 

[existentialist]

Probably the best thing to do is chase the phone route as ATOMIC SUPLEX did.

If you have to write, I would word it something like this:


Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your time. I have been issued a Penalty Charge Notice for <exactly what it says> at <exactly where it says>. As I understand it this notice is issued under ss.46-47 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 ("the EPA"), as Amended by the Clean Neighbourhoods Act 2005. Issuance of PCNs under the EPA must meet the criminal standard of proof; it must be shown beyond reasonable doubt that I left the waste where it was found.

I do appreciate that this is a serious problem for all councils, and indeed have always disposed of waste according to council guidelines. My issue is that my address being on the package in no way proves that I disposed of it there. I do not live near the location provided, and there are more likely scenarios as to how it got there; for example waste falling from a collection vehicle. It seems unlikely on those grounds that the court will enforce this notice, and I hope we can resolve this without recourse to them.

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to review this,

Yours sincerely,

Nick

That's a bit more conciliatory than the version I'd have done, but that's probably a good thing . And it nails it nicely.

 

[SpookyFrank]

No it is definitely my box. I know what it was for - it was for something delivered on 17 December. (to where I live). The penalty notice / photo is from 30 December - so almost 2 weeks later and 1 mile away

But it being my box, doesn't mean I dumped it. I know I didn't, but how can I convince them?

You don't have to convince them, they have to prove in court that you dumped it.

 

[Cid]

That's a bit more conciliatory than the version I'd have done, but that's probably a good thing . And it nails it nicely.

Yeah, always remember that the person you're dealing with probably isn't the person who issued the notice. And probably has to deal with a bunch of angry crap from people issued with equally stupid notices (or even justified ones). If they get an even response which lays out what they need to put in whatever they need to file to drop the charge, they're probably more likely to just do that.

 

[xenon]

It's mad anyway. Why would you dump a cardboard box when:
A. you have a recycling bin.
B. you could just tear it up and put it in your own / a neighbours bin with far less effort and risk of being caught.

Loada bollocks.

 

[Cid]

Also remember that if it does go to court, you're not going to be embarrassed by saying 'yes yer honour, I did state in my letter that the Council officer was a swivel-eyed loon who wouldn't recognise waste if you shoved it up their arse'.

 

[existentialist]

Also remember that if it does go to court, you're not going to be embarrassed by saying 'yes yer honour, I did state in my letter that the Council officer was a swivel-eyed loon who wouldn't recognise waste if you shoved it up their arse'.

When I said a "bit more conciliatory" than mine, that wasn't quite what I had in mind!

 

[platinumsage]

Probably the best thing to do is chase the phone route as ATOMIC SUPLEX did.

If you have to write, I would word it something like this:


Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your time. I have been issued a Penalty Charge Notice for <exactly what it says> at <exactly where it says>. As I understand it this notice is issued under ss.46-47 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 ("the EPA"), as Amended by the Clean Neighbourhoods Act 2005. Issuance of PCNs under the EPA must meet the criminal standard of proof; it must be shown beyond reasonable doubt that I left the waste where it was found.

I do appreciate that this is a serious problem for all councils, and indeed have always disposed of waste according to council guidelines. My issue is that my address being on the package in no way proves that I disposed of it there. I do not live near the location provided, and there are more likely scenarios as to how it got there; for example waste falling from a collection vehicle. It seems unlikely on those grounds that the court will enforce this notice, and I hope we can resolve this without recourse to them.

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to review this,

Yours sincerely,

Nick

That's ok but it doesn't actually say "I didn't do it", so reads a bit like "you can't prove it lol". Perhaps add in a middle paragraph: "I did not leave this item at location Z. I always recycle meticulously and any cardboard packing I receive is placed in my green wheelie bin kept in X and moved to Y on the morning of collection day. I therefore have no idea how this item could have ended up in Z other than perhaps by falling from the bin or lorry during collection or transport."

 

[nick]

Thanks all - there is some great advice on this.
I will fight them on the beaches etc

 

[Winot]

Partly because of identity theft, and partly to avoid the kind of thing that has happened to you arising for me, I try to remove or deface all address labels on any boxes I do throw out. I tear off the portion of letters with the address on when I put them in the recycling, too.

Going to be doing this from now on (particularly as I live down the hill from nick and this could easily have happened to me.)

 

[TopCat]

You don't have to convince them, they have to prove in court that you dumped it.

A magistrate is likely to side with the council especially if the OP is not represented.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

You don't have to convince them, they have to prove in court that you dumped it.

I just came to write this. They have the burden of proof.

 

[2hats]

Partly because of identity theft, and partly to avoid the kind of thing that has happened to you arising for me, I try to remove or deface all address labels on any boxes I do throw out. I tear off the portion of letters with the address on when I put them in the recycling, too.

Have been doing this for years, for similar reasons, but also the bar and QR codes the couriers use