Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[tendril]

Wish I'd just stuck to the cologne thread, that was bad enough.
If I can say this without being misunderstood as an apologist for paedophiles .. I was an absolute nightmare as a 15ish year old girl, to say I had agency would be an understatement. Still, luckily for me, the grown up men I fancied at the time ran away politely but really fast (perhaps in part due to it not being the 70s).

Well said. This discussion can quickly develop into a situation where if you aren't actively vilifying what happened you are seen as an apologist

 

[felixthecat]

I was 22 and that was too old to be chasing 16-yr olds, especially when there was so much sex, freely available with girls more my own age.

Seriously? I wasnt the slightest bit interested in boys my age at 16 - I went after guys in their 20s and didnt have any problems getting then either. I dont think I was THAT unusual.

 

[belboid]

Well said. This discussion can quickly develop into a situation where if you aren't actively vilifying what happened you are seen as an apologist

sadly, it is almost always what happens on such threads. The women get ignored (ohh, the irony) and any bloke who says anything other then 'men who fuck kids are scum' are told they are excusing abuse.

 

[LiamO]

i don't know if you recall this thread Barrister criticised for calling child abuse victim 'predatory'

And THAT is exactly the point, isn't it? There was nobody on that thread looking for 'nuance'. Nobody dared venture a view that 'She was no ordinary teenager'.

The one person who dared to write "on the thread's original topic - regardless of the lawyers' utterly inappropriate, wrong and rage-inducing use of words (and the attitudes they portray) - I hate to be That Person, but honestly if half I have heard about the case is true, then its full reality really is a bit more complicated - including evaluations of how far defendant is himself vulnerable (learning difficulties etc.) " was immediately labelled 'an apologist'. I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

But this fella wasn't a cultural icon was he? that's kind of the whole point of this thread.

 

[Lord Camomile]

If I can say this without being misunderstood as an apologist for paedophiles .. I was an absolute nightmare as a 15ish year old girl, to say I had agency would be an understatement. Still, luckily for me, the grown up men I fancied at the time ran away politely but really fast (perhaps in part due to it not being the 70s).

I think a large part of the issue is conflating the desires of teenagers and the desires of adults.

It is not unusual and generally quite understandable for teenagers to want to do adult things, but sometimes it's not always wise or healthy to let them. While many teenagers may be able to cope with activities perceived as more 'mature' than their years, others aren't; that's where it all gets murky and generally the law, at least, errs on the side of caution.

The problem comes when adults are seen to be exploiting those teenage desires to satisfy their own desires. Allowing your underage teenager to have a beer every now and again or drive your car round an empty parking lot is generally different to letting a teenager have sex with you. Where everyone draws the line between age differences and what is or isn't exploitation is where we get into conflicts.

Sorry if all that seems like stating the bleeding obvious, it just feels like some of it is getting forgotten/missed as tempers flare and emotions get riled.

 

[LiamO]

Seriously? I wasnt the slightest bit interested in boys my age at 16 - I went after guys in their 20s and didnt have any problems getting then either. I dont think I was THAT unusual.

OK felixthecat . Maybe I should expand on that and explain myself properly. It's not just about their ages.

We were holiday hosts/Bluecoats. That meant we were in a relative position of power and authority. It was all a bit mad tbh. I used to sign maybe 2-300 autographs a week! Lots of young girls would buy a professionally-taken photo of their favourite Bluecoats for us to sign.

Maybe this was something I was more aware of than him. My job (sports) meant I was involved mostly with younger kids or sporty teens and their parents, whereas Mark's centered around being the main ladies man/charmer on the night-time circuit.

My whole job was to encourage tough little kids and teenagers to relax enough that they could actually behave like the young kids they were, instead of of the little hardcases their hometown/estate demanded they be. I did this very successfully and to this day this remains probably the most rewarding job I have ever had.

To do this I had to build a level of trust, with the kids and their parents. In my model of the world, having spent all week making them feel comfortable enough to 'act their age' and to engage with the younger kids as leaders, I could not then hop the fence of a night time and target the older teens as sexual conquests. That would be a cunts trick.

Mark on the other hand only really engaged with them at night - when they were all made-up, dressed-to-kill etc. His time was spent flirting with girls and their mums. It was his job. Thus we could look at the same teenage girl and see two completely different things.

I was often propositioned by the older teens. I never had sex with any of them. I once gave a 16-yr old a snog backstage after the last-night show when I was pissed, but nothing more. That incident made me much more careful in how much/how little I engaged with the younger girls once I was pissed - which, like everybody else, was most nights tbf.

I did once dig myself a huge hole, much to the hilarious delight of my fellow DJ, when I declined such an invitation... in what I thought to be a very thoughtful, polite and considerate fashion... only for it all to nearly blow up big time. But that's another story.

Me and Mark were both aware that we were in a position of power. I felt he abused his. I didn't really judge him on it, especially not at the time. We are all working with what we've got and in his model of the world, viewed through the prism of his own life experience, there was nothing wrong with what he was doing.

 

[Wilf]

Most adult men aren't a 70s rock star and Maddox clearly wasn't a typical 15 year old girl.

So? What's your point? I genuinely don't know what you are arguing here. However it reads as if his occupation makes a difference - and the fact that the child in this case was possibly looking for fame also makes it different. Is that what you are really saying??

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Seriously? I wasnt the slightest bit interested in boys my age at 16 - I went after guys in their 20s and didnt have any problems getting then either. I dont think I was THAT unusual.

Pretty sure you weren't. Remembering back to when I was a 16 year old, most girls my age who had boyfriends had boyfriends older than them. Girls mature earlier than boys. It's a problem when you're a teenage boy - a frustrated teenage virgin boy like I was!

 

[LiamO]

Well said. This discussion can quickly develop into a situation where if you aren't actively vilifying what happened you are seen as an apologist

from the OP

Posters who ventured that 'things were different back then' have basically been called apologists for noncery on here. I wonder would any of those who wailed the loudest turn up on either of the Bowie RIP threads with a somewhat more nuanced view?

 

[Wilf]

It wasn't okay to have sex with young teenagers in the 60s or 70s. These were not cultural norms.

Absolutely. Public perceptions of child abuse are drastically different now, we use a different language, we understand the institutional background of abuse in terms of schools, the church and the like. However there was just as much clarity in the 60s and 70s. It was just as illegal and both families and communities had just as much revulsion as there is now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Absolutely. Public perceptions of child abuse are drastically different now, we use a different language, we understand the institutional background of abuse in terms of schools, the church and the like. However there was just as much clarity in the 60s and 70s. It was just as illegal and both families and communities had just as much revulsion as there is now.

Was there? Have you seen the teen mags trashpony linked to?

Also, more recently: Bill Wyman. I'm old enough to remember him and Mandy Smith in the papers and on the telly together. That couldn't happen today.

 

[killer b]

Was there? Have you seen the teen mags trashpony linked to?

Are they any more of an example of the norms of 1972 as the sidebar lusting after children in the DM online are of 2016?

 

[LiamO]

Absolutely. Public perceptions of child abuse are drastically different now, we use a different language, we understand the institutional background of abuse in terms of schools, the church and the like. However there was just as much clarity in the 60s and 70s. It was just as illegal and both families and communities had just as much revulsion as there is now.

Dunno about that tbh Wilf.

Lot's of what passed for a bit of banter/was everyday commonplace back then would cause a very loud silence if someone blurted it out in the canteen/pub these days.

 

[Favelado]

Was there? Have you seen the teen mags trashpony linked to?

Also, more recently: Bill Wyman. I'm old enough to remember him and Mandy Smith in the papers and on the telly together. That couldn't happen today.

Most people thought Wyman was a disgusting pervert.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Most people thought Wyman was a disgusting pervert.

Did they? Yet they were invited on tv or to photo shoots, and given positive write-ups. To repeat, that couldn't happen today.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Was there? Have you seen the teen mags trashpony linked to?

To be fair the publication, based in LA, lasted for five motnhs, consisted of five issues and is described by the person who has put them on line as an 'impossibly rare groupie mag'; so Star magazine may not be the best indicator of 1970's UK public attitudes to child abuse.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To be fair the publication, based in LA, lasted for five motnhs, consisted of five issues and is described by the person who has put them on line as an 'impossibly rare groupie mag'; Star magazine may not be the best indicator of 1970's UK public attitudes to child abuse.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

No, it's an indicator of a disturbing sub-culture in LA at the time. But it's still a challenge to the idea that notions remain unchanged.

 

[Wilf]

Dunno about that tbh Wilf.

Lot's of what passed for a bit of banter/was everyday commonplace back then would cause a very loud silence if someone blurted it out in the canteen/pub these days.

I agree with you about the spectrum of public 'discussion', all the way from carry on films, comedian's riffs through to canteen banter, as you say. There were differences - and in some ways we are judging the past from the perspective of the present. And as you and others have said, there needs to be nuance in this discussion. However I think there was still a definite revulsion within communities - and certainly within families - where an adult was having sex with someone significantly under 16 (other than the 15 year with a 17 year old type scenario that has been mentioned).

 

[LiamO]

Most people thought Wyman was a disgusting pervert.

Did they?

I was working on that holiday camp that summer (or the next one) and whilst calling the bingo (in a roomful of working-class families) I often said "Lucky for some... certainly was for Bill Wyman... THIRTEEN!". Some belly-laughed, some sniggered, some took a little intake of breath as it was 'close to the bone' and I'm sure some were not too impressed - but nobody pulled me on it. Ever.

Do that now and you'd be lynched.

 

[Favelado]

Did they? Yet they were invited on tv or to photo shoots, and given positive write-ups. To repeat, that couldn't happen today.

He was on the front page of the papers with her precisely because the relationship was shocking. Were they on Wogan together? I have a dim memory they might have been.

 

[Wilf]

Did they? Yet they were invited on tv or to photo shoots, and given positive write-ups. To repeat, that couldn't happen today.

From what I remember there was public astonishment about Wyman's behaviour - and also some astonishment that he wasn't arrested.

 

[LiamO]

That was probably after he had 'legitimised' the whole sordid affair by marrying her when she turned 16.

 

[Pickman's model]

lest we forget alan clark, who married his wife when she was 16 and he 30.

 

[laptop]

In the 1970s there were still many very vocal people for whom the worst thing about rock stars was not that they were having sex with 13-year olds, but that they were having sex outside marriage.

That makes huge difference to attitudes. And it makes it easier to appreciate that there were others for whom the age of consent was like a road speed limit. Including, as noted, tabloids into the 90s.

(And it's a sad state of affairs in which, having written that, I have to affirm that no, I wasn't in either group.)

 

[LiamO]

Couldn't see this getting made these days... and couldn't imagine the abuse you'd get if you went to see it. But at the time it was an apparently hilarious comedy.

 

[Idris2002]

In the 1970s there were still many very vocal people for whom the worst thing about rock stars was not that they were having sex with 13-year olds, but that they were having sex outside marriage.

That makes huge difference to attitudes. And it makes it easier to appreciate that there were others for whom the age of consent was like a road speed limit. Including, as noted, tabloids into the 90s.

(And it's a sad state of affairs in which, having written that, I have to affirm that no, I wasn't in either group.)

On the surface you get "you know Father, there is a wonderful air of chastity and devotion to our lord amongst our young men."

Behind the scenes, though, it's more like "nudge-nudge, wink-wink, we're all men of the world here aren't we lads".

 

[Casually Red]

I've already said that if more women come forward I'll reconsider my position. You're the one whose gone from "there definitely loads of instances" to "I could name names but shan't" then "there's probably more than one" and finally rested on "you'll be sorry when the names come out". You grasp of the facts and your willingness to abuse them to suit your position suggests you could find work as a sub editor on a particularly vile red top tabloid

No I haven't . You've completely made all that shit up, you fucking nonce apologist .

I haven't read maddoxs book, I've absolutely no interest in it. But I read hammer of the gods , about zeppelin . And quite a few of those on the groupie scene died tragically young . Often thanks to heroin .

And not everyone who realises as an adult they were sexually exploited by adults as a child cares to talk about it. Or is indeed able . Teenage groupies, children, we're camped out outside the doors of these musicians during their tours. There was an anonymous mass constantly on that scene . Maddox was simply the most famous . It's highly likely there was more than one for those who demonstrated a penchant in that direction . Which Bowie did . Sadly.

 

[Casually Red]

Did they? Yet they were invited on tv or to photo shoots, and given positive write-ups. To repeat, that couldn't happen today.

Or to be more correct his pr people arranged it in the face of quite a bit of public outrage. That's how that works.

Fuck me it was probably Max Clifford who set the while interview thing up .

And let's remember who was running tv in those days .

 

[Pickman's model]

No I haven't . You've completely made all that shit up, you fucking nonce apologist .

I haven't read maddoxs book, I've absolutely no interest in it. But I read hammer of the gods , about zeppelin . And quite a few of those on the groupie scene died tragically young . Often thanks to heroin .

And not everyone who realises as an adult they were sexually exploited by adults as a child cares to talk about it. Or is indeed able . Teenage groupies, children, we're camped out outside the doors of these musicians during their tours. There was an anonymous mass constantly on that scene . Maddox was simply the most famous . It's highly likely there was more than one for those who demonstrated a penchant in that direction . Which Bowie did . Sadly.

 

[LiamO]

From what I remember there was public astonishment about Wyman's behaviour - and also some astonishment that he wasn't arrested.

Dunno about astonishment. I remember lots of sniggering and 'jammy bastard'-ing.

Same with Gary Glitter - in the days when his prediliction for teens was, just like Savile, still the phwoar/ nudge-nudge mask behind which they hid (in plain sight) their real pederasty.

IIRC there was a double page NOTW expose on his sexual dalliance with a 14-year old (the one he later married(?) and was subsequently convicted of shagging). It was complete with gory details of how he never shagged her cos he respected her so much, but had her pull down her knickers and bend over a tree while he pulled himself off.

All in Britains family Favourite!