Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[Joe Reilly]

Pardon my interjection, but surely not getting nicked when involved in political activity that the state considers criminal is a GOOD thing?

Indeed. And though every effort was made to avoid it happening, after a period of time it became an inevitability, mainly because a) the fascists would happily point out the faces that had distinguished themselves against them and b) the police tended to target certain individuals once they became 'known' to them one way or the other. In London for example the had 'rogues galleries' of activists. With this in mind, and in order to extend the shelflife of key activist's AFA succesfully employed the dark arts in avoiding conviction. Over time this seemed to act as a deterrent or equaliser against egregious nickings as the plod knew even when it appeared it was an open and shut case and the candidate was in the bag, they hardly ever were.

 

[Joe Reilly]

And dont start taking the moral high ground on this stuff either l.d as you should refer back to the RA website circa 2003 where they revealed reams of sensitive and personal stuff about me which gave the authorities and the fash plenty of wanking material. Shameful behaviour...

Again your forgetting that you retired from active service in the 80's sometime (bad knee wasn't it?) and earlier claimed to have had your memoirs written by the middle of the decade, so apart from going through a few dust-bins, which might be regarded as more than a bit creepy but certainly not illegal, what dastardly deeds could have been revealed about you in 2003 that would have the cold case unit in a fever?

In reality the only thing the RA site ever revealed about you was to confirm your name after your book deal was announced. And you see this as a licence to 'out' everyone else, who for a variety of reasons have no wish to be identified.

 

[bignose1]

Not really. The book is about AFA nationally. The controversy about Hann is dealt with in a couple of pages. And the two are mentioned in passing on a couple of other occassions. The fact of the matter is that neither were major players. I'd guess that outside Manchester Big Nose would be unknown by 90 per cent of AFA, and Hann totally unknown to to 90 per cent of the opposition. I might be wrong but I'm am not aware of him every having been mentioned by them (BNP etc) even once. Now this maybe because unlike the 'cowards' who fronted the organisation in other areas, Glasgow, Brum, London and so on he never took a nicking. Never charged with a single political offence. Not once.

It is not disputed that as a rank and filer Hann had a credible record on the ground (but no better than a hundred others) but he was no string-puller. He was indeed notorious for not speaking at national meetings/conferences and had zero influence and input politically. So you have Hann the feared street-fighter/leader no one recognises, bolted togther with Tilzey the self-syled 'intelligence chief' everyone on the other side knows. The odd couple. The Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of anti-fascism.

Not a major player and not known outside of Manchester....really gary....here we go....should have called it Gary A'Fa shea and you confirm that in reality it was London RA/AFA who dictated the pace. Dave did take some nickings...how many did Denis get. And are you judged only on how many nickings you get. The odd couple...your the only lemon round here mate...

 

[bignose1]

Again your forgetting that you retired from active service in the 80's sometime (bad knee wasn't it?) and earlier claimed to have had your memoirs written by the middle of the decade, so apart from going through a few dust-bins, which might be regarded as more than a bit creepy but certainly not illegal, what dastardly deeds could have been revealed about you in 2003 that would have the cold case unit in a fever?

In reality the only thing the RA site ever revealed about you was to confirm your name after your book deal was announced. And you see this as a licence to 'out' everyone else, who for a variety of reasons have no wish to be identified.

What the fuck are you going on about. I was at places where you were til the mid 90's....my active service stopped mid 90's but doesnt mean what you think. By diminishing other peoples service you put yourself up there as the main man again. You stopped around mid 90's which might give you 18 months on me...wow mate...hope you have a pension scheme. Believe me I left out a lot that pales your handful of punch ups into insignificance. The shite on the RA website circa 2003 well I neednt go there. But remember those who live in glass houses.......mmmmm

 

[bignose1]

Again your forgetting that you retired from active service in the 80's sometime (bad knee wasn't it?) and earlier claimed to have had your memoirs written by the middle of the decade, so apart from going through a few dust-bins, which might be regarded as more than a bit creepy but certainly not illegal, what dastardly deeds could have been revealed about you in 2003 that would have the cold case unit in a fever?

In reality the only thing the RA site ever revealed about you was to confirm your name after your book deal was announced. And you see this as a licence to 'out' everyone else, who for a variety of reasons have no wish to be identified.

When you assisted in writing the book did you assume people would not have an inkling who might have been behind it really Joe. I outed you....I think you are seriously deluded. There is no credible reason on that basis why you didnt. And if you think you did you had then no right to name/defame me and put me on offer in your book. Try harder.

 

[The39thStep]

Just come back from a relaxing week near Barcelona . Somethings never change when you have been away do they?

 

[The39thStep]

yeah i just wanted to clarify what he was saying. obviously the 20s/30s in Germany were infinitely more violent and high in fatalities than london in the 70s!!! unbelievably so reading through it all recently. and trotters! good one!

The number of Trots actually involved in anti fascsism was miniscule when he was writing . Rosenhafts Beating the Fascists is a far better read.

 

[bignose1]

Just come back from a relaxing week near Barcelona . Somethings never change when you have been away do they?

39 the Joe Reilly chap couldnt resist yet another oppurtunity to undermine others. He's gone all weird politically and therefore harks back to the old days when he was perhaps useful in a punch up but that isnt enough any more....as I know only too well from my own experience withe my ex associates at S/light

 

[love detective]

When you assisted in writing the book did you assume people would not have an inkling who might have been behind it really Joe.

there's a difference between people, who are 'in the know', having an inkling as to who was involved and those people actually handing over a list of names to a legal firm identifying the primary authors

 

[chilango]

Absolutely.

The endless re-hashing of those events in Manchester and elsewhere 20 years ago do not contribute to this.

Sure, it mattered then. Both in terms of the matter of personal trust and in terms of the role of Searchlight.

But the constant re-arguing of essentially personal details no longer does.

Things have moved on.

People who were around at the time will, if they care, already have formulated judgements on these matters a long time ago. I know my views are not being changed by the "discussions" above.

People who weren't around at the time really don't need to hear all of this.

Essentially, all that needs to be taken and reviewed today are the following:

1/ The success, and limitations, of physical force anti-fascism (AFA)

2/ The need, or otherwise, of filling the political vacuum (the IWCA strategy)

3/ Whether state connected anti-fascism can be trusted or effective (Searchlight/HNH etc.)

These can, and should, be discussed, without all the shit being slung around above.

Almost 4 months on...

 

[audiotech]

..

 

[bignose1]

there's a difference between people, who are 'in the know', having an inkling as to who was involved and those people actually handing over a list of names to a legal firm identifying the primary authors

Handing over a list ....are you fucking real!!??

 

[love detective]

whether it was handing over a list or mentioning a number of names in a telephone conversation with a Carter Ruck lawyer - the point remains the same, what justification could there possibly be for doing such a thing?

 

[bignose1]

Handing over a list ....are you fucking real!!??

What about the Red Action websites careful, measured and sensitive handling of things around 2003....in other words a hate flilled tirade that outed individuals on both personal and political levels. Plus the recent outing by O'Shea/DC of an Irish political activist...disgraceful..

 

[love detective]

you seem to have avoided the question I asked you

(and given that on 11 Jan 2003 you and dave published No Retreat under your own names, how could anyone be accused of politically outing you in 2003?)

 

[bignose1]

whether it was handing over a list or mentioning a number of names in a telephone conversation with a Carter Ruck lawyer - the point remains the same, what justification could there possibly be for doing such a thing?

If for a minute I did what you say....there would be plenty of reasons on a pure revenge level after what they had subjected me , Dave and others to on their website following NR's publication.....but at that time revenge wasnt enough to motivate me...might be different now..you are completely in c c land with this. It was a particularly painful time for Dave family and you cunts have no right to demand anything.

 

[bignose1]

you seem to have avoided the question I asked you

(and given that on 11 Jan 2003 you and dave published No Retreat under your own names, how could anyone be accused of politically outing you in 2003?)

Come on you can do better than that...

 

[Joe Reilly]

Indeed.

Ex AFA bod speaking here.

Yep, one of the best in the 85 -89 period. It was her for instance that denounced the conspiracy to expel RA for racism in 1987. The arch conspirator, Jeff R. had written to her offering her to name her price if she would back him in ousting RA. As chair of the inquiry she allowed him to speak, where he eloquently and convincingly denied that ridding AFA of RA was his primary motivation in bringing the charges. She then reached into her bag and read his letter to her back to him! It's a cliche but you really could have heard a pin drop.

He listened in silence and sat down without a word. It was so thorough a disembowelling I almost felt sorry for him. Almost. And even though she was at absolute loggerheads with RA in the run up to The Main Event in 1989, she still provided one nugget of info (even though sworn to silence by her ally Searchlight) that was pivotal to the success of the operation on the day. She even took a couple of nickings in her time. Old school. That kind of integrity was rare enough then, and hard to even imagine now.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The number of Trots actually involved in anti fascsism was miniscule when he was writing . Rosenhafts Beating the Fascists is a far better read.

Yep, an absolute gem. Literally packed with outstanding details all (e.g 18,000 RFL fighters recipients of Red Aid in just one year - injured in fighting the fash) which combine to make the Trot charge that the KPD were the ones that ducked the battle against the Nazis such a vile and politically damaging lie.

Incidentally the full title is 'Beating the Fascists?' question mark, that helps distinguishes it from our own august publication. It is not the only thing sadly, but we can only do our best!

 

[love detective]

If for a minute I did what you say....there would be plenty of reasons on a pure revenge level after what they had subjected me

ok, so you did it to get revenge on people who outed you politically after the publication of No Retreat which was published in your own name?

or you did it to get revenge on people who questioned the content of what was contained in No Retreat?

do either of these things seriously justify giving Carter Ruck the names of the authors of the book? And previously you said you were only involved as you wanted to honourably help Louise with her supposed grievance over the book's content - so did you hand over the names of authors to help Louise as you said earlier (and why would the authors names be required when the dispute was with the publisher of the book) or was it purely for revenge as you say now?

No one is denying that it was a particular painful time for Dave's family, but a large part of that is due to the activities of Dave himself

(and of course the fact that Louise was/is intending to publish a history of anti-fascism in the 20th century played no part in the attempts to prevent the publication of any competing histories that are out there)

 

[audiotech]

Yep, one of the best in the 85 -89 period. It was her for instance that denounced the conspiracy to expel RA for racism in 1987. The arch conspirator, Jeff R. had written to her offering her to name her price if she would back him in ousting RA. As chair of the inquiry she allowed him to speak, where he eloquently and convincingly denied that ridding AFA of RA was his primary motivation in bringing the charges. She then reached into her bag and read his letter to her back to him! It's a cliche but you really could have heard a pin drop.

He listened in silence and sat down without a word. It was so thorough a disembowelling I almost felt sorry for him. Almost. And even though she was at absolute loggerheads with RA in the run up to The Main Event in 1989, she still provided one nugget of info (even though sworn to silence by her ally Searchlight) that was pivotal to the success of the operation on the day. She even took a couple of nickings in her time. Old school. That kind of integrity was rare enough then, and hard to even imagine now.

I actually stayed over at Jeff R's house one night, with a mate, after some anti-fascist activity, late 70's. He later parted from the political group he was involved with and became known as an "independent" from then on. Haven't had any contact with him since, well apart from an exchange of nods, after a demo some years ago. Writing down his machinations and passing them on not a good idea in hindsight for him then.

 

[cantsin]

NO I think of them in mainly political terms. AND if I have given names to a law firm then only the law firm would be in a position to divulge that information (under client confidentiality). Will OShea therefore show me any documenation/evidence to that effect. And dont start taking the moral high ground on this stuff either l.d as you should refer back to the RA website circa 2003 where they revealed reams of sensitive and personal stuff about me which gave the authorities and the fash plenty of wanking material. Shameful behaviour and you need to address that mate before having a poke at me.
Supplying names my arse. Wasnt it the same lawyers they used to relieve a local Labour party of 20k. Did they name names ?? I believe though if you write a book then fucking do it without using a hooky name. Even the football hooligan bods do. When I wrote NR I left loads out as it would finger either myself for stuff I was doing mainly with others and bigger stuff that may have been risky or helpful to the enemies. You should have put your names to it and be the big men you claim to be.

I dont follow this spat full time, am sure I've missed loads, and always thought there seemed to be points on both sides etc, certainly more so than pre the existence of this thread, when I would have only heard the RA response to NR.

But in this post you seem to have :

• Tacitly admitted to handing over Anti fascists names and addresses to a law firm (WTF ?)
• Tried to justify that in the context of the political online flack you suffered after NR
• Made the ridiculous claim that as limelight seeking hoolies put their name to their books ( normally ensuring they dont self incriminate/grass others for anything that hasnt already gone before the courts etc ) , the authors of a book that details legally sensitive political direct action should follow suit / "be the big men"
• Yet again dragged up the IWCA vs Lab liars law suit that has been dealt with repeatedly and openly by those involved

Sounds v shabby - Time to turn it in ?

 

[bignose1]

I dont follow this spat full time, am sure I've missed loads, and always thought there seemed to be points on both sides etc, certainly more so than pre the existence of this thread, when I would have only heard the RA response to NR.

But in this post you seem to have :

• Tacitly admitted to handing over Anti fascists names and addresses to a law firm (WTF ?)
• Tried to justify that in the context of the political online flack you suffered after NR
• Made the ridiculous claim that as limelight seeking hoolies put their name to their books ( normally ensuring they dont self incriminate/grass others for anything that hasnt already gone before the courts etc ) , the authors of a book that details legally sensitive political direct action should follow suit / "be the big men"
• Yet again dragged up the IWCA vs Lab liars law suit that has been dealt with repeatedly and openly by those involved

Sounds v shabby - Time to turn it in ?

What do you mean tacitly handed over....As Ive said that did not happen. How the fuck would I know for certain who the authores were and even so every tom dick cop fash and harry would be able to work something out so get a grip of your moralising shite. The online flack for your knowledge was deeply offensive and hurtful especially to Daves family....you ask for favours and some sort of queensberry rules ...dont fucking think so. Hoolie books have named people i can think of at least two where people have been pissed off...dont think its that ridiculous...then you quote legally sensitve direct action ...where did you drag that one up from. On at least 3 occasions the book might as well as offered people up on a plate to the cops. In my opinion if you are prepared to write a book about your(AFA) experiences then authenticate it with a legitimate authorship. Even more so when for the past 8 years the same people have continually undermined, lied. smeared and threatened those behind NR. Including the most foul behaviour towards Dave Hanns family. A dirty sick episode carried out by those said people who are now crying foul. Regards the IWCA and Labour law suit...why should your issue be any different to daves family..they must have named names...used the system and got a wedge from it. All Louise etc got was a tirade of foul abuse. Get a grip on reality before you start your sanctimonious shite

 

[bignose1]

ok, so you did it to get revenge on people who outed you politically after the publication of No Retreat which was published in your own name?

or you did it to get revenge on people who questioned the content of what was contained in No Retreat?

do either of these things seriously justify giving Carter Ruck the names of the authors of the book? And previously you said you were only involved as you wanted to honourably help Louise with her supposed grievance over the book's content - so did you hand over the names of authors to help Louise as you said earlier (and why would the authors names be required when the dispute was with the publisher of the book) or was it purely for revenge as you say now?

No one is denying that it was a particular painful time for Dave's family, but a large part of that is due to the activities of Dave himself

(and of course the fact that Louise was/is intending to publish a history of anti-fascism in the 20th century played no part in the attempts to prevent the publication of any competing histories that are out there)

This is the last Ill say on this as you are deliberately missing the point. What loyalty do I have to the wankers who have smeared me and others for quite a number of years who are now seeking a game with rules. Fuck right off. I didnt and couldnt hand names over get it into your head. I wouldnt/couldnt know it would have been pure guess work. The fash, cops and god knows who else would have come up with a similar list. If hypothetically speaking names were given then who the fuck are you to dictate the morals of that when the said people were behind such disgusting personal attacks. A disgrace that your even going there.

 

[love detective]

I'm not missing the point at all

You are correct that the fash, cops and god knows who else could have come up with a similar list

From the very start of this discussion, my point has been that the letter from Carter Ruck did not refer to the fash, cops or god knows who else as their source for the names of the authors, it explicitly referred to you as the source

Perhaps Carter Ruck are lying about it, but it would seem odd to put a lie like that in a legal letter

You say it's a disgrace that I am even 'going there' - but all i've done is to point out what I saw in the Carter Ruck letter and ask you whether you think it was justifiable for someone to provide a law firm with details of anti-fascists. You seem to be both arguing that you didn't do this, but that if it did happen it would be justified under the circumstances. So i guess I have my answer.

 

[malatesta32]

The number of Trots actually involved in anti fascsism was miniscule when he was writing . Rosenhafts Beating the Fascists is a far better read.

it is probably the best thing i have read in researching europe wide AF history. frightening the amount of fatal violence. it needs to be republished and also a lot cheaper than the 20 quid i bought it for! have plugged it several times on the blog!

 

[malatesta32]

re: this ongoing spat

 

[butchersapron]

it is probably the best thing i have read in researching europe wide AF history. frightening the amount of fatal violence. it needs to be republished and also a lot cheaper than the 20 quid i bought it for! have plugged it several times on the blog!

It's a great book, but there's loads more than just that that you need to get the full picture. The amount of fatal violence in the late 20s/early 30s was tiny compared to the fighting 1919, 1921 and 1923 - though on an upward trajectory until early 1933 - and i don't mean the attempted insurrections - i mean the fighting between left-wingers and the right wing combat Leagues - not the freikorps crushing Hamburg etc.

 

[ayatollah]

Yep, one of the best in the 85 -89 period. It was her for instance that denounced the conspiracy to expel RA for racism in 1987. The arch conspirator, Jeff R. had written to her offering her to name her price if she would back him in ousting RA. As chair of the inquiry she allowed him to speak, where he eloquently and convincingly denied that ridding AFA of RA was his primary motivation in bringing the charges. She then reached into her bag and read his letter to her back to him! It's a cliche but you really could have heard a pin drop.

He listened in silence and sat down without a word. It was so thorough a disembowelling I almost felt sorry for him. Almost. And even though she was at absolute loggerheads with RA in the run up to The Main Event in 1989, she still provided one nugget of info (even though sworn to silence by her ally Searchlight) that was pivotal to the success of the operation on the day. She even took a couple of nickings in her time. Old school. That kind of integrity was rare enough then, and hard to even imagine now.

JR was one of the most politically untrustworthy people I ever came across, and I've come across a few - definitely one to fit that character sitting alone on the forum steps when in "Life of Brian" someone says "whatever happened to the Revolutionery League for the Liberation of Judea " (or whatever)... and someone points over to the JR type ... "There he is".... A splitter and wrecker par excellence.

He was tasked by the AFA National Steering group with me in (86...87 ?) to hold a "commission of enquiry" to investigate the charges against Class War. JR did absolutely nothing to investigate the charges.. wheareas I did.. and found them to be groundless ... simply a Searchlight smear campaign. JR came round to my house to write the final report.. and wanted it to be a hatchet job, regardless of the lack of evidence. I told him to "put up or shut up", and presented him with the draft report I had written myself already -- and JR just had to sign it as "joint investigator" .. which he very grudgingly did .. dismisssing all the charges against Class War as baseless !

Of course . as you say, he later in 1987 came back (with me now moved to Scotland and retired from active politics --- worn out after 16 years of it) with a new conspiracy against, this time Red Action. Though in my penultimate act I actually chaired a AFA National Steering Group meeting in 1987, just before the National Conference in Bradford, where I thought (wrongly) that I had managed to squash the anti RA bollocks pretty firmly. The conspirators obviously rallied again once I had split the scene.

My last experience of JR, and his machinations, was the shambolic 1987 AFA National Conference, in JR's hometown of Bradford. JR and his chums sat the night before as the "hosting body's" Conference Arrangements Committee, and completely fucked up the conference by setting a deliberately ludicrous sectarian agenda which reduced the entire days conference to a futile debate about the NAME of the organisation (removing the hard AFA name and substitituting some wishy washy, "anti racist" name instead). The only actual discussion of fighting fascism which happened at that conference was a discussion I led in the lunch break........tragic ! People like JR were, and are , the absolute curse of the Left.... Fortunately the Far Right seem to be just as plagued by them too. Lucky.

I wonder what damage the guy has done on the Left in the years since ?

 

[bignose1]

I'm not missing the point at all

You are correct that the fash, cops and god knows who else could have come up with a similar list

From the very start of this discussion, my point has been that the letter from Carter Ruck did not refer to the fash, cops or god knows who else as their source for the names of the authors, it explicitly referred to you as the source

Perhaps Carter Ruck are lying about it, but it would seem odd to put a lie like that in a legal letter

You say it's a disgrace that I am even 'going there' - but all i've done is to point out what I saw in the Carter Ruck letter and ask you whether you think it was justifiable for someone to provide a law firm with details of anti-fascists. You seem to be both arguing that you didn't do this, but that if it did happen it would be justified under the circumstances. So i guess I have my answer.

Maybe it would be justified because these people acted like scum and that behaviour cannot be defended by the quoting of being anti fascists because they removed themselves from that by their disgraceful actions and I mean viscious dirty, shitty you name it they lowered it. Ive emailed Carter Ruck and am awaiting their response. I did not name names as I couldnt possibly know...are you a clown....cant you understand that...or are you really not interested.