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Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

2hats said:
True. I don't think you would loiter either or make yourself a sitting target. Re-position elsewhere in theatre with all speed?
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Evade the bird, try to notch the emitter, roll in on the launcher if you're feeling particularly warry. But, loiter? No...
 
In related supposition; I bet the balaclava clad drunk who hit the launch switch is now a charred and bullet ridden pile of meat in a ditch somewhere in Russia.
 
Report on twitter that Moscow have released data showing Kiev plane flying in close proximity to MH17 over Ukraine.
 
The Italian press are reporting an interview with one of the armed separatists who said he was tasked to capture/kill what he was told were paratroopers from Kiev from a transport plane they had just shot down (but on arriving in an area where he thought there were parachute canopies caught in the trees it dawned on him that he was surrounded by civilians).

e2a: This is the English language version of the piece:

http://www.corriere.it/english/14_l...wn-51e99c60-118f-11e4-affb-3320a03d21e8.shtml
 
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gosub said:
Situation already had a tragicly understandable fog of war feel about it, they, living in a war zone were unaware of the air corridor and the airlines were unaware of what sort of working kit they had access to. Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov is knowingly sprinkling bull shit on the situation to seed confusion.
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Good old maskirovka...
 
existentialist said:
Good old maskirovka...
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But it's so blantent, we are going to say something that won't stand up to cross checking with Janes then demand US release their classified Intel. It's like his heart's not in it. Kremlin told him to confuse the issue, so he will but not with his a game. Only thing it's good for is finding lazy or shoddy journos. Put Su25 into Google and see what comes out... Top at mo is this story even though that's 30%above its operational ceiling
 
2hats said:
Read about the bunfight here.
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The trouble is that these ceilings are WW1 type maximums. The figures I have seen are 32,808ft and I would guess the real figures are well over 40,000ft. What about the far more capable SU27 & MIG29's? Anyway this is a sick side show as we all know what really occured.
 
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What could the rebels want to hide in the wreckage of the cockpit? I just saw a report that men in camouflage uniforms have been seen cutting into parts of the cockpit with a power saw.
 
Interesting... The USG have published a graphic of the missile trajectory based on their (probably SBIRS) data:

BtJecf6IcAAmtuQ.jpg


Which of itself doesn't shed much more light on matters than the tabloid graphics offered by the Russian Ministry of Defence. However…

It starts to get interesting when one looks at some (apparently) independent work by a fellow who has examined Google Earth imagery taken and released in the last few days (20 July). In and around Sniznhe (identified as the area of BUK launch by the US authorities) one can see fresh caterpillar tracks in fields (amongst others) running from a road where Ukrainian parties reported seeing a BUK launcher (or launchers) being driven in the days around the incident (and for which video, reportedly of such, has been published). More detailed analysis of that is here.

The image of potentially greatest interest there is this one:
tracks.jpg
The coloured lines highlight various suspect tracks in the fields (leading from the aforementioned road).

Now consider this image which was published not long after the incident and was reported by locals as being the exhaust trail of a SAM in the Torez area at the time of the incident (has been widely reproduced as such in the media):
article-2698689-1FCC7A1600000578-149_634x396.jpg


After some detective work, with the co-operation of locals around Torez to locate the place from which the photo was taken, it seems he has figured out the location and bearing of that image (details here).

Following that bearing led him (red line) to…
trail.jpg
those same tracks. It takes a bit of careful comparison between that and the USG image above plus some geometrical calculations but they agree to within about 1km as to the suspected launch location (47.987N, 38.755E) - the yellow circles highlighting potential locations.

Apparently the US State Dept. are due to release relevant declassified data later today.

e2a: The USG image (implied post event path of evolution of the debris volume) is consistent with the radar data the Russians provided yesterday.

2e2a: Separately it would seem a local in the Ukraine worked out the location of the missile launch from local reports and that agrees with the above analysis (independent and USG) to within a few hundred metres:
BsyGbZJCEAAxI1y.png

From:
 
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Did you know Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently reinsured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

Well, it’s all true—at least if you live in Russia, because this is the Malaysia Airlines crash story that you’d be seeing.

As the crisis surrounding the plane crash deepens and as calls for Vladimir Putin to act grow louder, it’s worth noting that they’re not really getting through to Putin’s subjects. The picture of the catastrophe that the Russian people are seeing on their television screens is very different from that on screens in much of the rest of the world, and the discrepancy does not bode well for a sane resolution to this stand-off.

........

But in Russia, television—most of it owned or controlled by the Kremlin—is trying to muddy the water with various experts who insist that there is no way that an SA-11 missile system could possibly have downed a plane flying that high. And, mind you, this is not part of a larger debate of could they, or couldn’t they; this is all of Russian television and state-friendly papers pushing one line: The pro-Russian separatists we’ve been supporting all these months couldn’t have done this. Watching some of these Russian newscasts, one comes away with the impression of a desperate defense attorney scrounging for experts and angles, or a bad kid caught red-handed by the principal, trying to twist his way out of a situation in which he has no chance.

And that’s when they’re not simply peddling conspiracy theories, which have become a kind of symbiotic feedback loop between state TV and the most inventive corners of the Internet. The best of the bunch is, of course, an elaborate one: MH17 is actually MH370, that Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared into the Indian Ocean. According to this theory, the plane didn’t disappear at all, “it was taken to an American military base, Diego-Garcia.”

Then it was taken to Holland. On the necessary day and hour, it flew out, bound for Malaysia, but inside were not live people, but corpses. The plane was flown not by real pilots; it was on autopilot. Or take-off (a complicated procedure) was executed by live pilots, who then ejected on parachutes. Then the plane flew automatically. In the necessary spot, it was blown up, without even using a surface-to-air missile. Instead the plane was packed with a bomb, just like the CIA did on 9/11
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http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

So there we have it: The Malaysian flight that disappeared over Indonesia was part of a plot to send a plane full of corpses on auto pilot over Ukraine, blow it up, blame the Russians, all done by the US to start a war with Russia.

:facepalm:

I think the Russian state media at least deserve full marks for creative writing.
 
I wonder if anyone can shed some light on the suggested looting that might have occurred from the crash victims. I heard a report that some militia personnel were seen taking things like watches and wedding rings which later turned up for sale in local markets. I haven't heard that accusation of the miners or emergency workers though. Has anyone seen any reports on this?
 
The theory also notes that the passports of victims at the crash site all look brand new even though there was an explosion and a fire. “That is, the passports were tossed in [after the crash].” And, most damningly, all the victims’ Facebook pages were created in one day and the media is not showing any of the victims’ families, just the crash site. Though this is not true of Western media, Russian television has not featured any of this. “There’s very little talk about the human cost of this catastrophe,” says independent television analyst Arina Borodina, formerly of the prominent Russian daily Kommersant. “Instead we’re seeing these unbelievable versions. For example, that someone had actually been hunting for the president or that some of the locals saw parachutists coming down from a height of 30,000 feet.”

But though it may look unconvincing to us in the West, that is because we have seen and read other things that contradict it. The Russian media space has become so uniform and independent voices so cowed and marginalized that there is no counterweight and, when there’s no counterweight, if you repeat a thing often enough, it becomes the truth.
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http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782
 
From the BBC updates page:

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius revealed his irritation with British criticism over a French deal to sell warships to Russia, AFP reports. In an interview on Tuesday on French television, Mr Fabius said: "Dear British friends, let's also talk about finance. I was led to believe that there were quite a few Russian oligarchs in London," the agency reports.
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