White feather campaign of ww1 run by feminists?

[likesfish]

that bit of lunacy courtesy of the alt right

Were their even feminists in ww1?

 

[Poot]

that bit of lunacy courtesy of the alt right

Were their even feminists in ww1?

Prominent feminists of the time were motivated by wildly different politics. Your post has prompted me to read up a little and I was interested to see this:

As feminist pacifists were pilloried as 'cranks', and Sylvia Pankhurst found herself pelted with paint and rotten fruit by angry soldiers who objected to her peace meetings, militarists like Emmeline and Christabel Pankhurst became darlings of the conservative press and even received the coupon of coalition endorsement when Christabel stood for Parliament in the famous Khaki Election of 1918. Partial though the suffrage victory was, it opened the door to an equal franchise ten years later, and temporarily eclipsed the achievements of those women who had striven for peace.

The 'White Feather Girls': women's militarism in the UK

It goes on to say that women may even have felt so powerless that they found themselves a little giddy (my word not theirs) to suddenly be holding the power to criticise men.

I am not claiming that any of this is fair of course, but still...

 

[Pickman's model]

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[redsquirrel]

Some Suffragettes, including the WPSU leadership, Emmeline and Cristabel Pankhurst, were involved in such things. Abandoning any attempt to gain women the vote to back nationalist bilge.

 

[Celyn]

I don't know whether "feminism" or "feminist" existed as words, but it's true that of the Suffragettes, Emmeline Pankhurst (and I think Christabel too) became horribly keen on the war and I think they took to handing out white feathers. Three cheers for Sylvia, who didn't.

 

[seventh bullet]

Middle class liberal feminists like Emmeline Pankhurst who came to dominate the WSPU, were involved. And their support for wartime strike-breaking against working class women (butchersapron?). Hitching their own class demands to a strategy of top-down patriotism.

Which neckbeards are moaning about it likesfish?

 

[likesfish]

Some alt right fuckwit on another board fortunatly he's mra so he doesnt really get bonus points for being right about this.
Though from a completely wrong point he reckons ww1 was a conspriacy against men all men .
Which while true it was mostly men who died in the fighting rather misses the point

 

[Poot]

Some alt right fuckwit on another board fortunatly he's mra so he doesnt really get bonus points for being right about this.
Though from a completely wrong point he reckons ww1 was a conspriacy against men all men .
Which while true it was mostly men who died in the fighting rather misses the point

Well yes, that's ill-thought-out bollocks. Anyone who thinks women had that kind of power (or have ever had that kind of power) really hasn't been paying attention.

I mean, I'm assuming that his viewpoint is that men fought in WW1 because women told them to?

He might like to think about that (though I doubt he will..)

 

[Celyn]

It's annoying when nasty bastards actually get something even a tiny bit right, isn't it?

But he can't unilaterally decide that ALL the women were evilly dashing about with white feathers. They were not. And while I can see that their horrible intent was somehow to "shame" blokes into going off and getting killed, I thought the nasty white feather business quickly became very unpopular. And really, I bet most blokes would survive the supposed "shame" of it, rather than volunteering to go if they didn't happen to feel like getting bayonetted and shot and blown up and drowned in mud. I can't imagine why the government went to the bother of setting up conscription if these evil women were successfully chasing all the men to war.

Was it only WW1 that was a conspiracy against all men? All other wars prior to that one = not Evil Conspiracy. All wars subsequent to that one = not Evil Conspiracy. Is this bloke planning to write a book about his great theories, by any chance? I'm sure it would be very "interesting".

I could be wrong but I think there were probably quite a few women having a not-very-good time and becoming dead too.

 

[Athos]

But he can't unilaterally decide that ALL the women were evilly dashing about with white feathers. They were not. And while I can see that their horrible intent was somehow to "shame" blokes into going off and getting killed, I thought the nasty white feather business quickly became very unpopular. And really, I bet most blokes would survive the supposed "shame" of it, rather than volunteering to go if they didn't happen to feel like getting bayonetted and shot and blown up and drowned in mud. I can't imagine why the government went to the bother of setting up conscription if these evil women were successfully chasing all the men to war.

No, many women explicitly rejected it, including Sylvia Pankhurst.

Sadly, it didn't die out as quickly as it should have, and even made a reappearance in WWII.

You underestimate the impact of the white feather. A number of men reported some decades later that they were more upset by receiving one than they were by their experiences at the front!

It was the same people who handed out white feathers that were the leading players in the campaign to introduce conscription.

But, regardless of all that, the bloke likesfish is talking about is clearly a massive bellend.

 

[redsquirrel]

And really, I bet most blokes would survive the supposed "shame" of it, rather than volunteering to go if they didn't happen to feel like getting bayonetted and shot and blown up and drowned in mud. I can't imagine why the government went to the bother of setting up conscription if these evil women were successfully chasing all the men to war.

It wasn't just white feathers, what was the WPSU was involved in a whole load of nationalist, war-mongering, anti-working class crap, the fact that likesfish is talking to a first rate prick shouldn't obscure that.

 

[Athos]

It wasn't just white feathers, what was the WPSU was involved in a whole load of nationalist, war-mongering, anti-working class crap, the fact that likesfish is talking to a first rate prick shouldn't obscure that.

Indeed. Strike-breaking, for example.

 

[likesfish]

White feathers were handed to soldiers on leave who werent in uniform at least one autobiography mentioned getting enough to stuff a pillow.
Made a brief comeback during the 2nd gulf war when a certain TA soldier who'd talked about being mad keen to deploy did the extra training then suddenly remembered he was doing a degree so couldn't go
Had a sense of humour failure and got nicknamed darling after the slimy one in black adder goes forth

 

[Athos]

White feathers were handed to soldiers on leave who werent in uniform at least one autobiography mentioned getting enough to stuff a pillow.
Made a brief comeback during the 2nd gulf war when a certain TA soldier who'd talked about being mad keen to deploy did the extra training then suddenly remembered he was doing a degree so couldn't go
Had a sense of humour failure and got nicknamed darling after the slimy one in black adder goes forth

One bloke got one on the way to a reception in honour of him having received the Victoria Cross!

 

[Mordi]

Found this article whilst looking for a book that introduced me to the Women's International Peace Conference of 1915 (was called Dangerous Women I think, but can't find any sign of it). Whilst some Sufragettes postponed their struggle for 'national interests', so did many Socialists and Anarchists (not to mention Irish nationalists). I personally find it really inspiring learning about those who continued to fight against the war and the state, but the almost total collapse of the Left in the face of the war is disillusioning for me, let alone those who tried to stem it.

I know some liberal media types were all for bombing the shit out of Afghanistan to liberate the women there, but is there any other examples of supposedly feminist rhetoric being used as justification for war?

 

[toggle]

Some alt right fuckwit on another board fortunatly he's mra so he doesnt really get bonus points for being right about this.
Though from a completely wrong point he reckons ww1 was a conspriacy against men all men .
Which while true it was mostly men who died in the fighting rather misses the point

there's a lot of early feminists who had politics that were pretty vile. to the point where a lot of people who believed in voting rights for women would not ally with the women's groups because of their support for policies that were classist, militarist, pro imperialist. there's a lot of women who genuinely held these views. there's a lot who felt that publicising these views aggressively would prove that they could be trusted with the vote.

on the other hand, you have the signatories to Emily Hobhouse's Christmas letter. The letter was published in a journal from an international suffrage group, and several of the signatories had links to the ILP (including Emily). They called for retaining sisterhood in the face of aggression by governments and highlighted how much of the cost of modern warfare fell on non combatants. Emily was a useful figurehead at this point because she had already been very heavily involved in the campaigns against the Boer war and this was some time before she narrowly avoided charges of treason for traveling to Germany to try to negotiate for peace.



On Earth Peace, Goodwill toward Men, To the Women of Germany and Austria

Open Christmas Letter

Sisters: Some of us wish to send you a word at this sad Christmastide though we can but speak through the Press. The Christmas message sounds like a mockery to a world at war, but those of us who wished, and still wish for peace, may surely offer a solemn greeting to such of you as feel as we do. Do not let us forget that our very anguish unites us, that we are passing together through the same experiences of pain and grief. Caught in the grip of terrible Circumstance, what can we do? Tossed on this turbulent sea of human conflict, we can but move ourselves to those calm shores whereon stand, like rocks, the eternal verities–Love, Peace, Brotherhood. We pray you to believe that, come what may, we hold to our faith in Peace and Goodwill between nations; while technically at enmity in obedience to our rulers, we own allegiance to that higher law which bids us live at peace with all men.

Though our sons are sent to slay each other, and our hearts are torn by the cruelty of this fate, yet through pain supreme we will be true to our common womanhood. We will let no bitterness enter in this tragedy, made sacred by the life-blood of our best, nor mar with hate the heroism of their sacrifice. Though much has been done on all sides you will, as deeply as ourselves, deplore, shall we not steadily refuse to give credence to those false tales so freely told us, of each the other? We hope it may lessen your anxiety to learn we are doing our utmost to soften the lot of your civilians and war prisoners within these shores, even as we rely on your goodness of heart to do the same for ours in Germany and Austria.

Do you not feel with us that the vast slaughter in our opposing armies is a stain on civilization and Christianity, and that still deeper horror is aroused at the thought of those innocent victims, countless women, children, babies, old and sick, pursued by famine, disease and death in the devastated areas, both East and West? As we saw in South Africa and the Balkan Wars, the brunt of war falls upon non-combatants, and the conscience of the world cannot bear the sight. Is it not our mission to preserve life? Do not humanity and common-sense alike prompt us to join hands with the women of neutral countries, and urge our rulers to stay further bloodshed? Relief, however colossal, can reach but few. Can we sit still and let the helpless die in their thousands, as die they must–unless we rouse ourselves in the name of Humanity to save them? There is but one way to do this. We must all urge that peace be made with appeal to Wisdom and Reason. Since in the last resort it is these which must decide the issues can they begin too soon, if it is to save the womanhood and childhood as well as the manhood of Europe?

Even through the clash of arms we treasure the poet’s vision, and already seem to hear

‘A hundred nations swear that there shall be

Pity and Peace and Love among the good and free.’

May Christmas hasten that day. Peace on Earth is gone, but by renewal of our faith that it still reigns in the heart of things, Christmas should strengthen both you and us and all womanhood to strive for its return.

We are yours in this sisterhood of sorrow.

Emily Hobhouse

 

[camouflage]

that bit of lunacy courtesy of the alt right

Were their even feminists in ww1?

My understanding is that the White Feather Movement was part of the British governments attempt to get people to sign up for the war effort by shaming men who hadn't already volunteered. It was not a feminist movement any more than the Spartan saying that wives would tell their menfolk "with your shield or on it" was a feminist statement. There was feminist fought during that period though, or sort of proto-feminist anyway.

 

[camouflage]

I know some liberal media types were all for bombing the shit out of Afghanistan to liberate the women there, but is there any other examples of supposedly feminist rhetoric being used as justification for war?

Does Libya count- where the story was put out that Gaddafi was handing out viagra pills to his soldiers, which turned out to have been baseless?

 

[trabuquera]

Suffragettes in complicated, compromised intersectionalist politics shocker.
Lots of "early feminists" had views hideous by today's standards - about race, about eugenics, sterilising the 'feeble minded', some were raging snobs and class warriors, many thought the working classes were scum, lots were Empire-mad; they didn't conform at all to the modern-day SJW / cuddly hippy stereotype that feminism = progressive.

None of that changes in the least that the decisions about whole nations GOING to WW1 in the first place were made absolutely exclusively by men. Women weren't in those meeting rooms, had nothing to do with the command structure of the armies, etc etc etc.

Coming soon to an alt right board, no doubt: serious attempts to argue that the chaos in today's Mideast/Muslim lands is a feminist conspiracy because Hillary Clinton is the harpy grandchild of Gertrude Bell ... women really do ruin everything don't they?

 

[Pickman's model]

I know some liberal media types were all for bombing the shit out of Afghanistan to liberate the women there, but is there any other examples of supposedly feminist rhetoric being used as justification for war?

to what feminist rhetorick do you refer? is "liberating women" necessarily feminist? tbh it is rather more orientalist than feminist

 

[Mordi]

to what feminist rhetorick do you refer? is "liberating women" necessarily feminist? tbh it is rather more orientalist than feminist

A quick look brings up these articles which are in response to the position of the Feminist Majority Foundation advocating sending more US troops to Afghanistan. You're right to stress orientalist it definitely fits in with the old imperial civilising narrative.

 

[toggle]

A quick look brings up these articles which are in response to the position of the Feminist Majority Foundation advocating sending more US troops to Afghanistan. You're right to stress orientalist it definitely fits in with the old imperial civilising narrative.

it also had nothing to do with the decision making proesses that got troops into the middle east and aghanistan. it's all justification after the fact in an attempt to use feminism to justify imperialism.

VersoBooks.com

some good arguments in that book. which i got in verso's last e-book sale

 

[likesfish]

Afghanistan is about the worse place to be a woman on the planet.​