What's Your Vision for the Market?

[miss minnie]

It wasn't as popular (or as good) as Franco Manca, to be fair. But it was usually busy.

Beg to differ, went recently and didn't rate it as highly as old Francos... the menu was smaller, the pizza base was a little raw and we got a table straight away.

Old Francos was packed on a Saturday, they would take your orders in the queue and you certainly never dallied at a table.

edit: what happened to calzone!

 

[Ms T]

I assume you're one of the idiots standing in those massive queues? It looks like hell on earth. My ex-gf used to work there when it was Ecco's and was an awesome lil place then as far as i remember... genuine food, genuine people..

Then - it gets write ups in the Guardian lifestyle section and hey presto - a pack of tossers are blocking my way thru what was a very cool market.

I suspect the OP is also one of this place's fans. Fuck off back to cla'am i say

Don't be so ridiculous. Lots of Brixton people enjoy eating there, including me (I've lived in Brixton for 17 years - is that long enough for you?) and it isn't hell on earth. It's very good, cheap pizza and the staff are always friendly and efficient. You've never even been there.

It was set up by a long-term Brixton resident, btw, who used to squat in Rushcroft Road.

 

[Ms T]

Beg to differ, went recently and didn't rate it as highly as old Francos... the menu was smaller, the pizza base was a little raw and we got a table straight away.

Old Francos was packed on a Saturday, they would take your orders in the queue and you certainly never dallied at a table.

edit: what happened to calzone!

You don't dally now. I think the quality has gone down a bit recently - victim of its own success, innit?

Are you talking about Francos or Eco? My experience of both were that they weren't as busy. They were also smaller - Franco Manca has expanded across the row.

 

[miss minnie]

I was a regular at Francos in the '80s and it was always packed. In the early '90s I worked in Brixton and we'd lunch at Franco's every Friday, having to get there for midday in order to get a table. Late '90s I wasn't such a regular so perhaps trade tapered off but I still recall seeing the queues on a Saturday. I don't remember it being renamed to Eco (not doubting it may have been though), it was still Franco's when the Eco branches opened. There was also a Franco's (not Eco) open in Islington in the early '90s.

I was surprised at the current prices, thought they'd be charging much more by now... which probably explains the lack of variety and the sparsity of the toppings. I wouldn't say no to eating there if friends wanted to... but it wouldn't be my first choice of eatery in Brixton.

I miss the view of the Pincus Rose shop front though!

 

[nagapie]

I think the sparsity of the toppings is about keeping it more Neapolitan style and a lot of emphasis is placed on the base, apparently theirs is a very old Italian recipe.

 

[miss minnie]

Know what you mean about the Neapolitan style.... would still prefer the old Brixton style of Franco's though.

 

[boohoo]

Lots of focus on pizza on this thread!

A healthy mix of shops in the market would be good. What the spacemakers have done means I have popped into the Brixton village market on a regular basis. what the markets need to offer are the things you can't buy at Tescos and all the other high street brands in brixton. So yes, that is the Asian, west Indian foods, the various eateries from around the world, the fabric shops, the vintage shops, record shops, art galleries, etc... A good mix that could make Brixton more of a destination shop for the locals and people in the surrounding area rather than going to the West End or to Brick Lane and Spitalfields. I much rather there was a strong footfall which made the shops do a good turnover - all of them. If more people see what Brixton has to offer than the shop keeper wouldn't have to close up.

I don't think being a little more trendy and diverse is a bad thing.

 

[ajdown]

A good clean would help. The whole market area always looks grimy to me.

 

[boohoo]

A clean and a lick of paint. But there is no point investing if the investors feel there is little reason to spruce up an underused facitlity. Hopefully with the listing of the markets it should access some money for a much needed restoration. To turn it into the thirties glory that it once was.

 

[fbm]

I've just checked your site - seriously - what are your motives here? What needs improving? Do you want more joints like Francos and Rosies? Is that what you mean by 'developing'?

Motives: I can't speak for the motives of all members of FBM. For myself, I'm a believer in the markets as public spaces that provide a whole range of benefits to the people who shop at them, work at them, live near them. I want Brixton Market to serve as broad a range of customers as it can, but for myself, I'm particularly concerned that the market should continue to be a resource for people on low and middle incomes, and that it should provide a real focus for the collective life of Brixton as a diverse community.

Improvements: There are a million improvements that could be made: Problems with council management of the street market, cleaning, maintenance, insecure tenancy agreements, rent increases, service charge increases, lack of parking, lack of bike facilities - all need improving. Traders are often not in a position to push for these things without outside support - and we try to help where we can.

Developing: Well we think this could take a number of forms: we wonder if new services could be setup - like bike deliveries (Transition Town Brixton are starting to look into doing this if anyone's interested), or having racks of wheely-shoppers people could use - and we think some small physical developments could be beneficial too - like improving the visibility of the Pope's Road entrance, or we wonder about better circulation routes - like from Granville through one of the arches into Pope's Road (or the Council's Masterplan's Exchange Square if something like that were ever to happen)... etc. Before the fire on Atlantic Rd forced the beauty parlour into the vacant arch before the bridge, we'd started making enquiries to see if that could opened up and pedestrianised so the access into Granville's forecourt on Coldharbour was better... Things like that. Were it possible, we would like to have bigger ambitions too - many people in FBM would really like the LAP-owned markets to be owned by an organisation with a community focus...

We'll be discussing all this on the 29th... do come!

 

[fbm]

If you're interested in the complexities of this, please have a read of this essay by US sociologist Sharon Zukin -
Destination Culture and the Crisis of Authenticity:
http://www.friendsofbrixtonmarket.org/downloads/zukin-destination-culture.pdf
It's main focus is on New York, but many of the dynamics she's discussing are relevant here and she does talk about the development of 'cultural hubs' in the UK (and Shanghai)...

 

[gabi]

Leave the Market alone please. Don't fix what's nots broken. Thanks.

 

[Rushy]

Leave the Market alone please. Don't fix what's nots broken. Thanks.

It is brilliant that you love the market. But I fear that your approach of 'do nothing' is more likely to result in the market being lost for good. And fairly quickly. You only need to look at how many units in the Granville Arcade have been empty for more than a decade to see evidence of this.

You should definitely try to go to the meeting on the 29th and share your insight and feelings with the other attendees. Your view that the status quo should be maintained may be valid but you must be prepared to provide a convincing argument for this to, amongst others, the market traders, many of whose businesses continue to be in long term decline. If your reasoning is strong you will almost certainly find that people will sympathise with your ideas.

Alternatively, by listening to the some of those who have more first hand experience and vested interest in the market than most of us, you just might learn something new and find that your perspective changes.

One thing is for sure. No one will be impressed by trade in unsubstantiated insults and bigoted generalisations about other people. You will only be side-lining your own views.

 

[Ms T]

Leave the Market alone please. Don't fix what's nots broken. Thanks.

You are joking, aren't you? Did you ever go into Granville Arcade before the Spacemakers initiative? It was a ghost town, with lots of empty units. And if you bother to speak to the traders, they will tell you that business is pretty slow during weekdays.

Similarly, the outdoor market on Electric Avenue used to be a hell of a lot better than it is now. Tbh your comments on this thread are pretty ignorant.

 

[Ms T]

It is brilliant that you love the market. But I fear that your approach of 'do nothing' is more likely to result in the market being lost for good. And fairly quickly. You only need to look at how many units in the Granville Arcade have been empty for more than a decade to see evidence of this.

You should definitely try to go to the meeting on the 29th and share your insight and feelings with the other attendees. Your view that the status quo should be maintained may be valid but you must be prepared to provide a convincing argument for this to, amongst others, the market traders, many of whose businesses continue to be in long term decline. If your reasoning is strong you will almost certainly find that people will sympathise with your ideas.

Alternatively, by listening to the some of those who have more first hand experience and vested interest in the market than most of us, you just might learn something new and find that your perspective changes.

One thing is for sure. No one will be impressed by trade in unsubstantiated insults and bigoted generalisations about other people. You will only be side-lining your own views.

Good post.

 

[miss minnie]

Tbf the Granville Arcade never was b&w but it was certainly desolate for a very long time. There is a lot less pigeon crap and a lot more human life down there now, thanks to recent initiatives.

 

[Gramsci]

I've just checked your site - seriously - what are your motives here? What needs improving? Do you want more joints like Francos and Rosies? Is that what you mean by 'developing'?

Just to step in here on behalf of FBM. The organisation I am in is a member of FBM as well as Brixton Society.

FBM is more recent than Brixton Society. There is a place for such an such an organisation as FBM is Brixton to specifically deal with issues around the market. The outdoor market traders have there own organisation to represent there members to the Council ( who still at the moment run the outdoor market stalls).

In my experience FBM have tried to consult widely as possible. Hence FBM posting up here.

FBM has no direct say in the market so its set up for lobbying. THe market is the heart of Brixton and has not before had a "Friends Of" group. There are precedents for this- The Windmill on Brixton hill for example.

 

[Gramsci]

I kind of avoid saying "gentrification" because it's such a loaded term, but it's the classic gentrification cycle: slightly more adventurous types set up shop in an area because of cheap rents, they attract customers who are a slightly more adventurous subset of relatively affluent group, the rest of whom follow slightly after, and then suddenly the area is "desirable" and expensive.
QUOTE]

The most well known example is Hoxton and Covent Garden. Sadly with Covent Garden the "Adventorous" gradually got pushed out. The Dance school is know in Roseberry Avenue.

 

[Gramsci]

The market has changed over the years. This reflects the changing mix of people in Brixton as well.

It seems to me in fact that the ethnic mix is Brixton is arguably more than it was back in the early 80s.

There are more people from African countries like Eritrea for example. Ive also noticed a lot of Latin Americans cafes/shops in the Granville Arcade (sorry Brixton Village).

There is a social change as well. Not so many grubby Squatty white folks and more what some might see as possible "Claphamites" who one sees in new Ritzy bar.

Of course to old posters the worst example of the Yuppy tendency was our old friend "Dogstar Larry" who we saw off in the end.

 

[tarannau]

Bugger. I think I'm out at the same time as the FBM meeting. As blinking usual.

Still, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, my priority for the market would be fundamentally quite simple: give the place a much needed proper spruce up and help the current traders agree long term, affordable rates in advance. The whole place feels run down and - as much as it pains me to say it - it looks grubby and second rate to even places as middling as Tooting indoor market let alone more ambitious targets. Which kind of makes everything feel and smell less welcoming, hygenic and pleasant to shoppers, especially those accustomed to supermarkets throughout their lives. And also provides a disincentive for traders to improve their lot, especially when they may feel threatened by development options and the 'new wave'

There's already space for new traders in the vacant lots all around the place. I'd keep up the pressure for late night/Sunday opening hours as well if possible and amenable too

I still also think that a 'super' consolidated market featuring elements of the markets - farmers, Brixton Bazaar and the main one - could be a real draw for the area. The present piecemeal offerings work against each other to a large extent, introducing competitive options that you generally can't access at the same time. By themselves they can be a little limited, but put them together and it's a hefty, varied sector

 

[netbob]

FBM - I'm away at the weekend so here's my comments / suggestions:

• There should be an equal focus on all aspects of the markets, indoor and out, so no elements get left out of things. I sometimes get a sense that the outdoor markets get left out of things, but that might be a misapprehension.
  
  
• I'm torn on the Spacemakers project. On one level I'm really happy that that part of the market has some life in it for once, some new great businesses have been generated, and (along with the pizza place & farmers market) has given a foodie dimension to the market that wasnt really there before.
  
  On another, I think they have failed to reach out to the wider community and local residents, and so an even bigger opportunity has been missed (Coldhabour has one of the highest levels of uneployment in the borough IIRC). It's not necessarily a problem, but as I understand it their ethos is all about about communities using empty spaces to boostrap themselves, and this is how they are reported in the press. But I'm not sure reality bares that out, so it all feels a bit disingenuous. FMB should help encourage Spacemakers and other local groups to work together so the most can be made of the opportunity.
  
  
• There are still something like 15 outstanding planning breaches on Electric Avenue and surrounding roads. The Council are seemingly unable to pursure these with any effect. What can FBM do to help with this after the success of the campaign to get the covered markets listed?
  
  
• FBM should produce an annual report on "The State of The Market" that measures things like the range of stalls & shops, the number of empty properties, rent levels etc. Everyone's concern is that we end up with a mono-culture of a market that only serves one aspect of the community or another, as has happened in bits of East London. I think that FBM should become the watchdog that makes sure we don't ever get to that point, and an anual report would be a good way of doing that, and informing the policies of the council / owners of the indoor markets.

 

[passivejoe]

There is a social change as well. Not so many grubby Squatty white folks and more what some might see as possible "Claphamites" who one sees in new Ritzy bar.

Hmm. Am I a "Claphamite"? Lived in Brixton for 17 years, shop almost exclusively in the markets... but public school educated, work in the city and sometimes have a quick drink in the ritzy bar.

All this 'them' and 'us' stuff is becoming ridiculous.

 

[Nanker Phelge]

public school educated, work in the city and sometimes have a quick drink in the ritzy bar.

...feel better for getting that out?

 

[tarannau]

If you give it a few years PJ, then you'll be able to describe similar newcomers as yuppies and sneer to your heart's content. It's hardly as bad now, but some of those with the most vigorous dislike of 'outsiders' are those who migrated to Brixton in an earlier wave, public schoolboys even.

FWIW I think I know less than a handful of Urbanites that were actually born or raised around here. Not that it negates people's views, but it does sometimes lead to a strangely 'do as I say, not as I did' feel to this place

 

[fbm]

FBM - I'm away at the weekend so here's my comments / suggestions:

Thanks memespring - if anyone else can't make the workshop and has ideas for what FBM can be doing, please post them here / email them to us and we'll include them.

 

[Rushy]

Hmm. Am I a "Claphamite"? Lived in Brixton for 17 years, shop almost exclusively in the markets... but public school educated, work in the city and sometimes have a quick drink in the ritzy bar.

All this 'them' and 'us' stuff is becoming ridiculous.

You know that your a real Brixtonite when you start telling anyone who'll listen exactly how long you have lived in Brixton!

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

If you give it a few years PJ, then you'll be able to describe similar newcomers as yuppies and sneer to your heart's content. It's hardly as bad now, but some of those with the most vigorous dislike of 'outsiders' are those who migrated to Brixton in an earlier wave, public schoolboys even.

FWIW I think I know less than a handful of Urbanites that were actually born or raised around here. Not that it negates people's views, but it does sometimes lead to a strangely 'do as I say, not as I did' feel to this place

Heh, the really hardcore middle class white defenders of Working Class Black Brixton on here are gone now aren't they. A thread like this (and especially the Starbucks one) would have been 100 pages of aggro by now a few years ago.

 

[andrewdroid]

I assume you're one of the idiots standing in those massive queues? It looks like hell on earth. My ex-gf used to work there when it was Ecco's and was an awesome lil place then as far as i remember... genuine food, genuine people..

Then - it gets write ups in the Guardian lifestyle section and hey presto - a pack of tossers are blocking my way thru what was a very cool market.

I suspect the OP is also one of this place's fans. Fuck off back to cla'am i say

Francos is a brixton landmark one of the few remaining older places like Morleys, Brixton wholefoods and Book mongers. I was probably enjoying pizza there when u were in nappies, being a brixon resident for 29 years I say we dont need you or your sort round here, its you fucks that have made this place a yuppie hell where the young cant afford to live where they grew up.

 

[boohoo]

I'm a long time Brixton person - I grew up here - I remember when it was all fields...

I remember the guy who use to dance outside the entrance to the granville Arcades on atlantic raod - just jeans and no shoes, bouncing along to the records.
I remember the 'silly tomatoes' lady who was actually selling salad tomatoes.
I remember C&A s in Brixton closing down.
I remember the upturned vehicles in the middle of Brixton after the riots.

 

[Gramsci]

Hmm. Am I a "Claphamite"? Lived in Brixton for 17 years, shop almost exclusively in the markets... but public school educated, work in the city and sometimes have a quick drink in the ritzy bar.

All this 'them' and 'us' stuff is becoming ridiculous.

I wish people would read my posts properly. I am making an observation based on fact. I have just re read my original post and it sounds reasonable to me. Im also saying that the ethnic mix of Brxiton imo has increased from what it was in the early 80s.

Sorry to dissilusion you here but years of Thatcherism and New Labour havent got rid off an underlying them and us society. In fact from comments I have heard as I go about London (not just Brixton) make me think this Country may be returning to more resentment due to the fact that the City has been bailed out whilst the rest of us lose our jobs, get hours cut and generally get screwed.

Unfortunately imo this resentment is more being directed at the weak such as the asylum seekers , immigrants .See recent efforts of so called "English Defence League" instead of at the City. If only the boot boys of EDL would direct there energies at the City instead of at "Islam".

I think them and us based on Class (in the sense of structural inequality) is perfectly reasonable to complain about. However ones original class position is not ones fault nor is it determinant in ones own views on Class

What I do find positive about Brixton is despite this the different ethnic groups in Brixton rub along fairly well. And always have. Im not romanticising it. There are frictions between different groups. Which is perfectly understandable and healthy.

The social basis on Brixton has changed since the early 80s. It however has not become like Clapham or Shoreditch. Nor do I think that is what most people want.