Universal Jobmatch - allow access?

[Celyn]

I have to go to a Jobcentre and apply for JSA. I am sure I have read that it's best NOT to permit the Jobcentre people access to Universal Jobmatch account.

Is that that still the case? i.e. open an account on Univ. Jobmatch but don't let the DWP have access to it? Will that make them angry and malevolent towards me? I don't think I do want them to get access at all, but what are the legitimate concerns about it?

(I have looked at previous mentions of this issue, but I still would like up-to-date thoughts and advice, please. Very nervous about whole thing.)

 

[Pickman's model]

never tell them any more than they absolutely need to know. never. what they don't know can't hurt you.

 

[Celyn]

But can they hurt me for not telling them?

I'm kind of thinking I will try to insist on "no, you can't have access, because although I can't recall the details,I have read that it is a bad idea" and when they say "oh yes, you must", I could say "well, for now, no access, but I will give it some thought and you never know, I might change my mind."

 

[Pickman's model]

But can they hurt me for not telling them?

I'm kind of thinking I will try to insist on "no, you can't have access, because although I can't recall the details,I have read that it is a bad idea" and when they say "oh yes, you must", I could say "well, for now, no access, but I will give it some thought and you never know, I might change my mind."

if they want access they can ask nicely.

 

[Celyn]

Yeah, but I'm worried about the extent to which I might be putting their back up if I refuse them access. I've already failed to get to an appointment with them, so I'm probably in the bad books already.

I'm worried about whether refusing them access gets me filed into the category of "huh, dodgy, this one. Do not like. Do bad things to her".

 

[sovereignb]

Well i was having constant issues with accessing my account and I eventually gave up - apparently alot of people have had issues with it. My advisor told me to write my searches down on paper like the old school method. Maybe you could get away with that one. Then again, yesterday when i turned up, they didnt even look at the paper and ive pretty much seen a different person each time ive been in the last 6 weeks. Its a shitty system that im grateful for but hope not to be in for long.

 

[sovereignb]

And to be honest i think they only want to be able to check if you are applying for jobs or not...doubt its anything more sinister than that

 

[Guineveretoo]

When I was signing on, I allowed them access to it simply because it was so much easier than having to make a paper note of everything I had done and hand it over to them.

I applied for dozens of jobs on that stupid website, but didn't even get any acknowledgements. Initially, I found that quite depressing, then I realised it was just the game you had to play in order to get JSA.

 

[xenon]

I used it couple of years back. Didn't give them access. My adviser was relatively OK about that bit. Although the system itself makes applying for loads of jobs, really easy. I mean, even shit ones I wasn't capable of, a few just to get the numbers up. There's a notes section, I'd record all the job refs and basic details of things I applied for outside the UJM system too, just to cover myself should the access rule have changed.

I did note all that stuff outside the system as required, as well, just to be clear.

Of course, even if you give them access, how they know you've gone through with an application, as opposed to just clicked the apply link taking you to a third party site, is well, a mystery. I don't imagine they contact every single HR dept...

 

[Fez909]

Re-posting my old advice:

I also ticked the box out of fear of standing out. I held out for a long time but they were giving me more and more pressure and I was shit scared of sanctions so did it to keep them sweet.

As to how many jobs I applied for? Why, every single one I listed on my job search of course

Try to establish a favourable pattern early. Tell them you use the JobMatch site but you do it in the library so you're not logged in. That way you are fulfilling your obligation to use it to search for jobs but they cannot check. Say that you use indeed.co.uk (they love indeed in the job centre, and it's a genuinely good site) and that most/all of the jobs you would apply for through UJ are jobs you've already applied for through indeed. Say that you will record your applications on the UJ activity history but that you'd prefer to apply in different ways. By not applying through the site, and by saying you don't log in every day, you're making it hard for them to track you.

On the day you sign on, as close to the sign-on time as possible, log into the site and put your full two weeks job search activiy into the system. Make sure to post it in an awkward to read format. 3/4 jobs per post (you have a character limit in the box) and put them in reverse order, but in "chunks" so it makes it hard to count how many you've applied for within a given 7-day period. All the time I was on the dole (over a year) they never once checked up on the jobs I'd entered or asked me any questions about them. They seemed happy enough that I was "using the system".

I think this could work for anyone and it wasn't just me getting lucky.

if yo've not applied for the correct amount of jobs that week then just go on indeed and you can search up to 28 days back in the past for positions. Make sure to keep a list of each 'application' you've done in a text file and search it each time you update UJB in case you accidentally put the same one down twice. I doubt they'd notice, but you don't want to give them any excuse.

Good luck

 

[Celyn]

That all sounds like excellent advice, Fez909, and I'm grateful. Grateful to all who answered, in fact, as it's an attempt to keep my brain from completely turning into mud.

Well, I've messed up the "I do it in the library" thing, as I said I had net access at home, but then again, I have a temperamental computer, a not-very-good-broadband with the dreaded Talktalk, and I could very well find that I "have" to do it in a library. But I don't understand how that would involve not being logged in. I mean, most things I use, even if it's someone else's computer, I just log in as me, and Bob is suddenly my new uncle.

Actually, I had better steer clear of that one. It's a very long time since I was in a public library, and it's in the same area as the Jobcentre, in fact a bit further away, and it's unlikely I'd want to go out if I wasn't forced to, and it would be damn expensive.

However, the advice about how to fill in the "activity history" - give the data they want but make it as unlike readable information as possible - is very good.

I should count myself lucky at the moment, as I got kicked off ESA and have to apply for JSA. Have asked for a Mandatory Reconsideration, and when that fails, I shall appeal*, so the DWP woman said that for a while (dunno if she means till Mand. Reconsideration failure, or till appeal failure), she will only require me to be logging on to Universal Jobmatch 3 times a week rather than every day. <grateful pleb bows head, mutters "thank you kindly ma'am">

What I should do is use this time to try to learn all the rules and stuff so as to avoid getting sent to do unpaid workfare in Poundland or whatever when they turn the heat up. Oh, yeah, and fill in all the application for Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit and shit. In fact, my real horror of today was how to manage to get to the bloody place, so I'm in nowhere near the same scary place as poor sods already getting sanctioned etc. (Yet)

But sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, and this evening there will be cheap plonk and unhealthy sausages and chocolate. Perhaps not all together.

* and when I appeal, I shall bloody well remember to seek advice from anyone and everyone, and to try to get to the Citizens Advice people, and try to arrange permission to record the whole interview, and possibly see if I can get anyone to accompany me to the interview, and ... and - oh - in general do all the stuff that I bloody OUGHT to have done in the first place. The DWP's written version of that interview doesn't seem very much at all like the one I was at.

 

[Fez909]

Well, I've messed up the "I do it in the library" thing, as I said I had net access at home, but then again, I have a temperamental computer, a not-very-good-broadband with the dreaded Talktalk, and I could very well find that I "have" to do it in a library. But I don't understand how that would involve not being logged in. I mean, most things I use, even if it's someone else's computer, I just log in as me, and Bob is suddenly my new uncle.

The reason you don't log in at the library is because you're security conscious and you don't like entering your password on public computers. Who knows what keyloggers or viruses are on there?

The reason you're at the library is because there are too many distractions at home. If you're at the library you won't be logged into facebook etc (because you don't trust public computers, remember) so you're focused on the task at hand: finding a job.

 

[Celyn]

The reason you don't log in at the library is because you're security conscious and you don't like entering your password on public computers. Who knows what keyloggers or viruses are on there?

The reason you're at the library is because there are too many distractions at home. If you're at the library you won't be logged into facebook etc (because you don't trust public computers, remember) so you're focused on the task at hand: finding a job.

Aha, I see. Quite a clever and crafty Fez, aren't you? I like your thinking. I certainly WILL bear that in mind. In my case, it's very unlikely I'd go to the library, but the lady of the Department of Stealth & Total Obscurity* probably doesn't know whether I find it difficult to go places or not.

See, the thing is, I am pretty ignorant as to what exactly is bad/good about allowing them access. I do, however, think that I notice enough good and sensible people advising against it, whether out of practicality or out of principle, to indicate that DWP ought not to be allowed access. Also, given that I don't know WHY they need it, as that I will have to tell them things anyway, it does rather look as though this is not for my benefit, but for theirs in some way.

When I sort of demurred about access, she then said (in her sweet and friendly way, ha!), "oh, but if we can't see it, then what will happen is that when you come in to report your activity and sign on, then we'll have to take you to the computer and then you can show us what you have done, but we wouldn't need to do that if we could access your Universal Jobmatch ... (space for not *quite* a patient sigh of condescension, but nearly) ... well, if that's the way you would like to do it ...". I wonder if I see a bit of a veiled threat there. Do it our way or we will make it take you a VERY LONG TIME every time you visit.

I *think* I gather that there can be an issue with people being told off for not logging in every single day but instead doing a bunch of applications on the same day. I wonder if the DWP then says "Ha! We now think you were actually working 24 hours a day on those other days and therefore you are being criminal". Oh well, I'm not much the wiser, but as I say, there seems to be sufficient reason not to allow them access. And a movement of people who refuse them access is a bit undermined by every person who will.

* Yeah, I know it's DWP now, but that older name still gives a bit of childish amusement. Easily amused, me. First job I got after graduation (when it's a right bastard 'cos you can apply for shop jobs, clerical jobs, cleaning jobs, factory jobs all you like but the bosses say "no, silly, you will get a better job and leave", despite all evidence to the contrary, and I realised 'twas better to specialise in applying for temp jobs), was a 3 month job with the bloody DHSS. Writing girocheques. And basically strike-breaking, I think, although I did not realise that at the time, and for which I am very sorry.

 

[Gromit]

We had a thread on this before.

On that one I think I said something along the lines of understanding why people wouldn't want to give them access.

I did however and to be honest I found it so easy to spam them with loads of evidence that I was searching most days and applying for stuff regularly. It was a bullshit exercise as it wasn't really genuine attempts at finding work but a tick box exercise but it only took me about an hour a week spread across the week so I didn't give a damn.

 

[Supine]

They made me open an account and upload my cv.

When they complained I never used the site I told them it was shit. They seemed to accept that as a good enough reason not to use it. I did show them evidence I was actively trying to find work via other better means.

 

[Jackobi]

The Universal Jobmatch Toolkit is what Work Coaches use as guidance if you want to read it all. As far as I know it has not been updated since this last freedom of information request:

Universal Jobmatch Toolkit

Summarised, a JSA claimant can be mandated to create a UJM account and upload a CV but the most relevant part of the whole document is this paragraph:

"99. However, the onus is on the claimant to provide evidence of their jobsearch activity (by whatever means they choose)."

They can ask for access to UJM, ask for screenshots etc (note the language used in the document - "97. To help assess that a claimant is actively seeking work you may suggest that they show you:" ) but you can refuse all requests and state that it is up to you to provide jobsearch evidence by whichever means you choose.

The Labour Market Conditions Guide paragraph 77 states that even verbal evidence is acceptable:

“The evidence of jobsearch produced when they attend to have their
regular reviews may be in various forms:

the claimant’s verbal evidence"

Labour Market Conditions Guide

I've quoted these two paragraphs on a few occasions when being pressurised for UJM access in the past and it has shut them up, but providing written evidence is a good idea as it could be your word against a Work Coach for verbal evidence.

 

[Celyn]

It's mainly that I was not clear about reasons why to allow them access or not to allow it. Everybody will still have to give evidence of applications made etc.

However, it does seem that there are concerns about letting DWP track things in this way. Possibly because it might lead to the DWP "sanctioning" people who might have been genuinely busy applying for loads of things but the dimwitted version of the DWP might think if it is not on their own preferred site, it doesn't count. It sounds as though, as a matter of principle, it might be best to refuse access.

 

[Celyn]

Jackobi Hah! You were posting useful stuff while I was typing. Thank you. That looks VERY good. Not trusting my computer, and half-expecting my 'phone to ring, I thank you now, and will read your good post again with VERY much interest. And will copy it and keep it as pdf in case of any internet disaster. Thanks! That is the very useful stuff to know.

 

[Jackobi]

It's mainly that I was not clear about reasons why to allow them access or not to allow it.

Personally, it would feel intrusive knowing the DWP can monitor the times and dates of the log-ins to the UJM, a bit too much like home surveillance for my liking, so I refused to use it.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Oh, yeah, and fill in all the application for Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit and shit.

Make it a top priority to let the housing dept know about your change of benefit. Seriously, it's quite common that DWP informs the council that a claim for Benefit A has ceased, and the council interprets that as no further claim for HB, rather than a transition to Benefit B.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Make it a top priority to let the housing dept know about your change of benefit. Seriously, it's quite common that DWP informs the council that a claim for Benefit A has ceased, and the council interprets that as no further claim for HB, rather than a transition to Benefit B.

Don't massively panic about this - it gets sorted eventually if the HB claim gets stopped due to a change in benefit, but it can lead to arrears letters getting generated etc, and that's just extra stress that can be done without.

 

[zippyRN]

And to be honest i think they only want to be able to check if you are applying for jobs or not...doubt its anything more sinister than that

posting sensible and realistic answers on urban in a thread involving the DWP ...

 

[zippyRN]

Don't massively panic about this - it gets sorted eventually if the HB claim gets stopped due to a change in benefit, but it can lead to arrears letters getting generated etc, and that's just extra stress that can be done without.

which is one of the reasons for the move to universal credit

 

[unrepentant85]

From my experience when signing on last year if they dont have access you have to write 30 things a week that you have done to find work in your booklet. If they do have access and you tell them you fill it all out online then they never actually check. Well, thats what happened with me for 5 months. Other branches may be different.

 

[Celyn]

I have got a certificate from GP so that I can ignore them for a month and they can ignore me.

 

[Whatnow?]

Do not allow them access, do not give them any more information than they absolutely have to have or they will completely bugger it up and you will suffer for it.
I have had this issue repeatedly over the years, they cannot force you, I have a standard story of "my mate allowed access and the site does not work properly, they applied for jobs and it ended up with them being cut off from everything for months, so I prefer to do it by book" *shows book with exactly what was requested*. End of problem, unless it is someone new, or someone who is basically an arsehole. Then they end up asking someone who isn't one of those before moaning a bit and accepting it.

As an aside I had to remake the bloody account 5 times in 5 weeks when it was introduced and could see this coming so made up the above story after researching the guidelines on it.

 

[Celyn]

I wouldn't be very good at fibbing about this mythical mate, I think. I get into a bad enough tizzy just sticking to facts, so that might not be best approach for me. And me writing in handwriting in the little book in a worried state would be a horrible mess and would greatly enhance the profits of Typpex.

I *think* what I might do is set it to permit access on a morning of a sign-on appointment, then rescind it once home from appointment.

For now, because I missed my sign-on appointment and the Job Coach phoned me to say "why are you not here?" and "this will affect your benefit", she said if I could get a doctor's certificate, it would be all right. And I got a doc certificate and took it to them, which was a right old bit of fun, but the upshot is I don't have to see them till 13th October, so I now have more time to work out what to do.

I *am * consdering ditching my home broadband and phone as it *looks* as though I could tether my mobile phone to my computer, and it might be cheaper, so that might have implications for how much time I could spend online.

 

[starfish]

I thought you had to give them access. I would just log what jobs id applied for & they were happy that. I did tell them that it was totally bloody useless for job hunting which several of them agreed with & told me to not use it for that but just as a diary of sorts.