UK coronavirus tracking app - discussion

[editor]

I think this is worth a thread of its own - even more so since The Register published their damning critique

Britain is sleepwalking into another coronavirus disaster by failing to listen to global consensus and expert analysis with the release of the NHS COVID-19 contact-tracking app.

At the heart of this decision by the UK to fall back on the belief that a central authority is going to be a better solution, no matter what compromises have to be made, is that central planning will work better when it comes to COVID-19.

But will it? So far the clear evidence is that greater control of populations has worked better at stopping the coronavirus spread than a more relaxed attitude, The US and UK have notably refused to put limits on their citizens until forced to, and are almost certainly going to end up the worst affected countries on the globe as a result.

But does population control work beyond lockdown? When the economy is opened up, will a centralized approach where hotspots can be identified and dealt with from a command post be more effective than a decentralized approach where individuals are left to decide for themselves?

We may be about to find out. Although if people can’t be persuaded to download the app in the first place because they don’t want their data to be floating around the government’s servers for the next 100 years, then the whole question is moot anyway. The government is continuing to play a giant game of chicken with our lives.

UK finds itself almost alone with centralized virus contact-tracing app that probably won't work well, asks for your location, may be illegal

Herd immunity all over again

www.theregister.co.uk

 

[weltweit]

If you decide you don't like it, will you be able to uninstall it?

 

[editor]

If you decide you don't like it, will you be able to uninstall it?

Can't see why not. By all accounts, the UK app is going to be a battery hog, so it'll be useless anyway if people end up with dead phones.

 

[wayward bob]

no i won't. but i don't use my phone "properly" (regularly lost/misplaced/out of battery, don't carry it on me). if i did i wouldn't either. i might consider one of the decentralised ones but equally unlikely to adapt my phone-usage in order to make it in any way accurate/useful.

 

[editor]

I screwed up the poll so had to reset the votes and merge the two identical options (and add a 'yes')

Please vote again and apols all round.

 

[LDC]

I don't really want to use it, but I will as it's the socially responsible thing to do above and beyond what I want to individually do.

 

[shifting gears]

I don't really want to use it, but I will as it's the socially responsible thing to do above and beyond what I want to individually do.

this is basically where I’m at, under any other circumstances yada yada

 

[cupid_stunt]

I'll probably install it, as the chance of saving lives far outweighs any concerns over data privacy ATM.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

But it won't work

 

[Cid]

I think, though I’m extrapolating from consumer contract law a bit, it would be hugely problematic legally if they tried to use the data for anything outside the stated aims, or if they tried to collect any personalised data. Have to read up on it a bit though.

 

[pesh]

i also think the whole it doesn't work thing is key here
it's like installing a smoke detector but not bothering to put a battery in it, i can't see how much use it will be.

 

[souljacker]

By all accounts, the UK app is going to be a battery hog, so it'll be useless anyway if people end up with dead phones.

It shouldn't be too bad. BLE runs little sensors that I've installed and they can run for 2 years on a little watch battery.

 

[souljacker]

But it won't work

Why don't you think it will work?

 

[pesh]

because of this bit

Despite what the NCSC has continued to imply, the app will not, as it stands, work all the time on iOS nor Android since version 8. The operating systems won't allow the tracing application to broadcast its ID via Bluetooth to surrounding devices when it's running in the background and not in active use. Apple's iOS forbids it, and newer Google Android versions limit it to a few minutes after the app falls into the background.

That means that unless people have the NHS app running in the foreground and their phones awake most of the time, the fundamental principle underpinning the entire system – that phones detect each other – won't work.

It will work if people open the app and leave it open and the phone unlocked. But if you close it and forget to reopen it, or the phone falls asleep, the app will not broadcast its ID and no other phones around you will register that you've been close by. There is even a handy video of someone in Australia showing this (Australia has gone for a similar system with its COVIDSafe app.)

We cannot state it plainer: on iPhones, apps cannot send out their IDs via Bluetooth when the software is in the background, and on newer Android builds, IDs cannot be transmitted after a few minutes in the background. And Apple and Google have refused to allow the tracing appto send out IDs in the background.

The NHS has insisted its engineers have worked around this problem "sufficiently well" by waking the app after it detects itself running on a nearby phone emitting an ID: the software is blocked from sending out its ID when in the background but it can passively listen for IDs of apps still allowed to broadcast. However, this assumes there are a sufficient number of phones running the tracing app nearby still broadcasting to keep enough people's apps awake: there needs to be a critical mass of users while we're all supposed to be socially distancing. If two or more people pass each other and their apps have stopped broadcasting, the software will never know they came in contact.

 

[Petcha]

As mentioned on the other thread, I find it inexplicable that the government has not taken up Apple/Google's offer to provide the app and instead are going it alone. I appreciate those companies might have slightly cynical motives in terms of data gathering but as time is of the essence here and they undoubtedly have some of the finest developers in the industry in comparison to whoever the NHS will be using it's a no brainer. It's another brilliant move by our esteemed leaders.

 

[LDC]

But it won't work

If it really doesn't work they/we will find out with the trial being done on IoW.

Seems unlikely that it won't work to me tbh, the people working on this aren't complete idiots (I hope).

 

[platinumsage]

No, mainly because I won’t be in close contact with anyone for 15 minutes who has a smartphone.

If it alerted me to passing joggers who turned out to be super-spreaders I might consider it.

 

[Sue]

Having been involved (peripherally thank fuck) in a couple of NHS IT projects, I have my doubts about whether/how well this will work. And that's without even looking at any of the technical aspects...

ETA Which is maybe unfair -- I worked with some excellent individual people but the overall stuff was not good and that makes me feel kind of cynical about this.

 

[Petcha]

Having been involved (peripherally thank fuck) in a couple of NHS IT projects, I have my doubts about whether/how well this will work. And that's without even looking at any of the technical aspects...

ETA Which is maybe unfair -- I worked with some excellent individual people but the overall stuff was not good and that makes me feel kind of cynical about this.

I think anyone who has been to their GP after a hospital stint only to find out the GP has no record of said hospital stay because the IT systems don't join up properly would also have doubts about this. And that's happened to me more than once. How hard can it be to track someone by their NHS number across multiple providers?

 

[pesh]

i'm wondering if there is some half-baked theory based more on arrogance than technical knowledge that they will be able to force Apple and Google to release updates that would make it work.

 

[neonwilderness]

I've only read about this briefly so far, but it sounds like it won't work if it's going to rely on the app to broadcast the information which'll only work when the app is open. As I understand it the Google/Apple version would do the broadcasting (presumably via the operating system) and the app would just need to tap into this and process the data locally on the phone.

Computerphile did a video about how it could work and the potential privacy issues a couple of days ago.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

If it alerted me to passing joggers who turned out to be super-spreaders I might consider it.

Me too - another few evil joggers passed me today who had no concept of what 2m looked like.

But yeah, as it stands I won't install it - I just don't trust them to misuse the data given their track record.

 

[Petcha]

Me too - another few evil joggers passed me today who had no concept of what 2m looked like.

But yeah, as it stands I won't install it - I just don't trust them to misuse the data given their track record.

They don't take any data

 

[t0bytoo]

Seems unlikely that it won't work to me tbh, the people working on this aren't complete idiots (I hope).

I dunno. Even if the app isn't built by idiots, there will be a lot of people running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
I've worked on a few govuk projects and this one gives me the shivers.

 

[editor]

On a related note:

Palantir’s NHS data project “may outlive coronavirus crisis”

<p>An ambitious initiative to forecast demand on NHS services at both a local and national level is likely to outlive the coronavirus pandemic, according to two sources close to the project. The initi

tech.newstatesman.com

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

That they are rolling out a first tranche of 18,000 contact tracking and tracing staff today (already appearing on pages of agencies like StaffOne in Sheffield) indicates that there is not too much faith in the app, or people accepting it and the old fashioned human based tracking and tracing will be the likely fall back. How many staff that will take, and how quickly they will be up and running is another matter entirely!

 

[Sprocket.]

I think anyone who has been to their GP after a hospital stint only to find out the GP has no record of said hospital stay because the IT systems don't join up properly would also have doubts about this. And that's happened to me more than once. How hard can it be to track someone by their NHS number across multiple providers?

This. 100%.

 

[MrSki]

It also means that UK passport holders won't be able to travel to other countries using the google/apple app without installing that too. This cartoon sums it up really.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Desperation always leads to folly.

a big fuck off from me.

 

[platinumsage]

Maybe it's not intended to be effective, just make us feel more confident going back to work...