Train/Bus pass protest in South York 'The freedom ride@

[Batboy]

I support what these protestors are doing, but would add It is quite amazing to think that a multi millionaire pensioner can be given concessions for free travel amongst many other things. If there needs to be any redressing on benefits and concessions it simply should be taken off the rich and not the poor.

 

[Celyn]

I could easily be wrong, but it is my impression that it's all pretty academic until elderly person A or B actually gets on the bus or train and chooses to avail themselves of the free or discounted fare. Anyone not doing that is not then incurring a cost to the local authority that pays for these exemptions/discounts.

So, while there might indeed be the odd rich bastard using their cheap fare, it's more likely that the well-off person doesn't use public transport and therefore is not, in fact, costing anything.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

There's going to be a demo in support of the two old fellas who were arrested - charged with failure to pay and obstructing police - outside Sheffield Magistrate's court on 7 July (their court date). Assemble at 9.15am. Please come and support if you can make it (I can't cos some bastard's only gone and given me a job ).

Here's a statement from one of them:

Fucking cunts. Lets hope the court is fucking mobbed on the 7th!

 

[Greebo]

<snip> If there needs to be any redressing on benefits and concessions it simply should be taken off the rich and not the poor.

Four words: Universality and pooled risk.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

There's going to be a demo in support of the two old fellas who were arrested - charged with failure to pay and obstructing police - outside Sheffield Magistrate's court on 7 July (their court date). Assemble at 9.15am. Please come and support if you can make it (I can't cos some bastard's only gone and given me a job ).

Here's a statement from one of them:

Fucking disgraceful cunts...

 

[Batboy]

Four words: Universality and pooled risk.

I'm sure there could be a way of doing this, I don't know what the figures are in terms of financial/statistical breakdown between the elderly rich and those in poverty, but I do find it amusing when somebody worth 100 million can get a free bus pass and money off their gas bill and I speak from experience here as a very rich friend of my father (and worth in the region of 100 million) did exactly that. And he was an odious money obsessed prick, I found it offensive.

 

[Greebo]

I'm sure there could be a way of doing this, I don't know what the figures are in terms of financial/statistical breakdown between the elderly rich and those in poverty, but I do find it amusing when somebody worth 100 million can get a free bus pass and money off their gas bill and I speak from experience here as a very rich friend of my father (and worth in the region of 100 million) did exactly that. <snip>

The vast majority of people over pension age in this country have paid NI, therefore they're entitled to the state pension and associated benefits, concessions etc. End of.

That might seem unfair to you, but it's the only way to banish the idea of benefits being handouts, charity, or for scroungers.

The more you make concessionary passes, reductions, and rebates etc means tested (aka "income related"), the more people you'll out off claiming them. It'll seldom be the rich who suffer. Instead, it's the person who's bright enough but goes into a blind panic when told to fill in a form, or finds it intrusive when told to provide details of income (even if not asked for proof of income).

You won't hurt the rich; you'll hurt some of the poorest who prefer to cling to their remaining shred of (misplaced but still existent) pride.

 

[Celyn]

Plus, of course, people who could fill in the forms etc., but hate the idea of applying for what they might see as "charity".

 

[TodayIsCaturday]

The vast majority of people over pension age in this country have paid NI, therefore they're entitled to the state pension and associated benefits, concessions etc. End of.

That might seem unfair to you, but it's the only way to banish the idea of benefits being handouts, charity, or for scroungers.

Young unemployed people don't even get free bus passes to look for work or get to the dole office. In the countryside outside the big cities this is a major problem. Of course they wouldn't have NI contributions so I don't think your idea of not giving "handouts" to preserve their "pride" would go down particularly well with them.

 

[J Ed]

Young unemployed people don't even get free bus passes to look for work or get to the dole office. In the countryside outside the big cities this is a major problem. Of course they wouldn't have NI contributions so I don't think your idea of not giving "handouts" to preserve their "pride" would go down particularly well with them.

It's a dire situation but taking free travel off of pensioners in South Yorkshire isn't going to change that, is it? This sort of narrative is promoted to people as part of a wedge strategy to make more and more cuts, entitlements taken away from pensioners and the disabled are never, ever going to be given to young people even if that is what you want so why bother acting as if that's the choice we have to make. In any case, just how many multimillionaires do people think are affected by this particular cut in South Yorkshire? I would say very, very few.

 

[Greebo]

Young unemployed people don't even get free bus passes to look for work or get to the dole office. In the countryside outside the big cities this is a major problem. Of course they wouldn't have NI contributions so I don't think your idea of not giving "handouts" to preserve their "pride" would go down particularly well with them.

IIn my arrogant opinion your argument is arse about face. You don't make things fairer for all by removing help from those who need it, even if that does put both the young and old in an position of equal disadvantage.

Most of the time that you're working age, you pay NI or are credited with it (eg for signing on, or meeting the requirements for Carers Allowance or Income Support if a single parent). Shared contributions over a lifetime should result in benefits whenever the situation of extra need arises.

Are children undeserving because they haven't had the chance to pay NI? What about school leavers and those who've recently left further or higher education?

A short clear form which boils down to "Do you need this? Sign here." will get a far bigger uptake than a 50 page form asking for details of any relationship, any children, your housing, your savings, and lastly (I found this one on the "fix yourself a break scheme for carers" form, which I failed to complete) up to 500 words on the difference that getting this payment etc will make to your life.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I support what these protestors are doing, but would add It is quite amazing to think that a multi millionaire pensioner can be given concessions for free travel amongst many other things. If there needs to be any redressing on benefits and concessions it simply should be taken off the rich and not the poor.

I can assure you that none of the pensioners involved in these protests are millionaires - far from it.

 

[TodayIsCaturday]

IIn my arrogant opinion your argument is arse about face. You don't make things fairer for all by removing help from those who need it, even if that does put both the young and old in an position of equal disadvantage.

Most of the time that you're working age, you pay NI or are credited with it (eg for signing on, or meeting the requirements for Carers Allowance or Income Support if a single parent). Shared contributions over a lifetime should result in benefits whenever the situation of extra need arises.

Are children undeserving because they haven't had the chance to pay NI? What about school leavers and those who've recently left further or higher education?

A short clear form which boils down to "Do you need this? Sign here." will get a far bigger uptake than a 50 page form asking for details of any relationship, any children, your housing, your savings, and lastly (I found this one on the "fix yourself a break scheme for carers" form", which I failed to complete) up to 500 words on the difference that getting this payment etc will make to your life.

I think we agree but it seemed earlier you were suggesting that entitlement should be linked to paying NI. I disagree because it's just another tax and it shouldn't only be people who have previously paid this tax who can get the best benefits.

 

[Greebo]

I think we agree but it seemed earlier you were suggesting that entitlement should be linked to paying NI. I disagree because it's just another tax and it shouldn't only be people who have previously paid this tax who can get the best benefits.

The NI and benefit system as it is now isn't how it was, even in the Thatcherite 1980s. It was never supposed to be just another tax, and I'd like to see it ringfenced far more than it is now. Benefit entitlement is indirectly linked to NI, the assumption is that even if you haven't paid in yet, you'll have the chance to do so at some point.

 

[Mr Moose]

There is another issue with 'Freedom Travel' as for older people it is an encouragement to be active. Whether or not they are in poverty there is a health and social benefit to them and to the health service. It also allows them to volunteer and look after other people's sprogs etc etc. We don't have to stick a pound note sign on it though to know it's desirable.

 

[DotCommunist]

its not right whoever it happens to but seeing those arseholes doing over someones grandad is a fucking disgrace

 

[BigTom]

I support what these protestors are doing, but would add It is quite amazing to think that a multi millionaire pensioner can be given concessions for free travel amongst many other things. If there needs to be any redressing on benefits and concessions it simply should be taken off the rich and not the poor.

In addition to what Greebo & Mr Moose have said I would add two points:

You need to look at the cost of making the benefit means tested. It's far quicker, simpler and cheaper to hand everyone a free bus pass at 65 (or whatever) than it is to have a department whose job it is to go through forms, verify income/wealth etc and approve/deny benefits. I've no idea if anyone has actually looked at these figures or not so this is a purely theoretical point which is (at least in theory) actually answerable. In any case, there is definitely an additional cost to means testing benefits which needs to be accounted for if you are interested in saving money.

Pensioners passes are only usable outside of peak hour travel when buses and trains run well under capacity anyway. Theres no extra trains or buses being put on to accommodate the pensioners getting free travel, so the marginal cost of them travelling is minimal, probably close to zero. If we had a nationalised, integrated transport system, this would mean the cost of the passes would be minimal. We don't of course so I imagine the government gets charged a full ticket price for each of them travelling, but it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[rioted]

its not right whoever it happens to but seeing those arseholes doing over someones grandad is a fucking disgrace

Don't look, then. And stop treating "grandads" and "pensioners" as decrepit specimens fit only for nursing homes and kid gloves. We deserve better than that.

 

[J Ed]

Don't look, then. And stop treating "grandads" and "pensioners" as decrepit specimens fit only for nursing homes and kid gloves. We deserve better than that.

wtf? He obviously isn't saying anything remotely like that.

 

[krink]

Don't look, then. And stop treating "grandads" and "pensioners" as decrepit specimens fit only for nursing homes and kid gloves. We deserve better than that.

eh? don't look? get the fuck out of it, daft arse.

as someone who is getting older i am not as strong physically as i was and being handled like that in the video is a lot more dangerous to me now than when i was a young fitter person so yes, i am weaker. weaker people people being mistreated does make people angry because weaker people cannot defend themselves as well as someone who isn't weaker. it's quite simple.

how you've gone from someone saying weaker people deserve some protection to accusing dot of treating older people as decrepit specimens is beyond me.

 

[DotCommunist]

Don't look, then. And stop treating "grandads" and "pensioners" as decrepit specimens fit only for nursing homes and kid gloves. We deserve better than that.

do me a favour m8, I know older pension age men who could out fuck and out fight and outwork me. It's not meant to be patronising. Its just the probably stupid emotive thing that 'Hold on that could be my grandad'

 

[DotCommunist]

i'm not saying bless em ffs, I made it clear that its shit no matter how it happens but if its done on people who are past their glory days (in terms of physical capability to resist a sweaty headed young baldy arsehole who thinks he is OB) its just an extra fucking pisstake. And they aren't even real coppers!

 

[SpookyFrank]

I support what these protestors are doing, but would add It is quite amazing to think that a multi millionaire pensioner can be given concessions for free travel amongst many other things. If there needs to be any redressing on benefits and concessions it simply should be taken off the rich and not the poor.

I would think very few multi-millionaire pensioners would bother using state-funded transport or claiming winter fuel allowance.

Obviously there will be a handful of exceptions...

 

[Batboy]

I would think very few multi-millionaire pensioners would bother using state-funded transport or claiming winter fuel allowance.

Obviously there will be a handful of exceptions...

To be fair, I haven't seen her on the number 38 bus lately.

 

[Batboy]

In addition to what Greebo & Mr Moose have said I would add two points:

You need to look at the cost of making the benefit means tested. It's far quicker, simpler and cheaper to hand everyone a free bus pass at 65 (or whatever) than it is to have a department whose job it is to go through forms, verify income/wealth etc and approve/deny benefits. I've no idea if anyone has actually looked at these figures or not so this is a purely theoretical point which is (at least in theory) actually answerable. In any case, there is definitely an additional cost to means testing benefits which needs to be accounted for if you are interested in saving money.

Pensioners passes are only usable outside of peak hour travel when buses and trains run well under capacity anyway. Theres no extra trains or buses being put on to accommodate the pensioners getting free travel, so the marginal cost of them travelling is minimal, probably close to zero. If we had a nationalised, integrated transport system, this would mean the cost of the passes would be minimal. We don't of course so I imagine the government gets charged a full ticket price for each of them travelling, but it doesn't have to be that way.

I know what you are saying (and I did add a caveat to my post). I am certain there could be a way of marshalling a very simplified means test without the need for 'over administration'. However.... I am also certain that government or local authorities being what they are, would never in a million years simplify something and would needlessly spunk money, so in that respect you are right.

The wider question of the older rich is an interesting one and raises some contentious points especially considering the asset wealth generated by the mental property market in places like London. As an example a retired couple I know bought a property in 1974 down my street for 28k, It is now worth £2.8 million, along the way they also bought the next door house. They are now worth in simple calculations around 6 million. Yet around the corner there are pensioners living in abject poverty. Both get free bus passes.

I can assure you that none of the pensioners involved in these protests are millionaires - far from it.

I never said or implied that , as you can see from my post. I entirely support what they are doing.

 

[Batboy]

The vast majority of people over pension age in this country have paid NI, therefore they're entitled to the state pension and associated benefits, concessions etc. End of.

That might seem unfair to you, but it's the only way to banish the idea of benefits being handouts, charity, or for scroungers.

The more you make concessionary passes, reductions, and rebates etc means tested (aka "income related"), the more people you'll out off claiming them. It'll seldom be the rich who suffer. Instead, it's the person who's bright enough but goes into a blind panic when told to fill in a form, or finds it intrusive when told to provide details of income (even if not asked for proof of income).

You won't hurt the rich; you'll hurt some of the poorest who prefer to cling to their remaining shred of (misplaced but still existent) pride.

I entirely understand where you are coming from and I'm not going to get in a bunfight with everyone on this, because the reality is that despite me believing the principle to be right, no government department or local authority on the planet would ever be able to implement such a scheme without fucking it up financially and as you have suggested upsetting people on the way.

... as an aside what do you think of Millibands / labour proposed 'mansion tax', that is something that will affect asset rich over 65's? It has similar parallels.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> what do you think of Millibands / labour proposed 'mansion tax', that is something that will affect asset rich over 65's? It has similar parallels.

It'll probably cost more to set up, run, and manage than it'll bring in, so I'm against it.

IMHO it'd be far more cost effective to provide the HMRC with enough staff (and funding) to close the loopholes on existing taxes.

 

[SpookyFrank]

To be fair, I haven't seen her on the number 38 bus lately.

No, but she does get her own helicopter which, if anything, probably costs more.

 

[Batboy]

No, but she does get her own helicopter which, if anything, probably costs more.

Does she get free travel on that....

 

[gosub]

This issue was on Jeremy Vine show yesterday