Three murders and at least three serious assaults in two weeks...

[spanglechick]

from my experience in a peckham secondary. they have very high aspirations. all of my tutor group want to go to university, and they've all been told they can (even the girl with special needs so pronounced she can't consistently write her own name). They're constantly told the can be barristers and doctors etc. psychologist is another popular ambition. we get local people from african carribean communities who have excelled in their fields to come and talk to them. we take them on visits to universities, kings college hospital, the houses of parliament (and also record labels, design houses, and media outlets) - under programmes designed to engage young people who might otherwise have no role models they can identify with.

These are brilliant programmes. For lots and lots of our girls they work to inspire and motivate them to achieve. But there is a significant number of students who might want to be a barrister or whatever, but are massively resistant to doing even the bare minimum of work. Some students want it, but don't want to work for it. We arrange for them to be involved in a local radio station, and after two weeks a significant minority can't be bothered to come (some have lives so chaotic that they can't come... but lots just CBA). They're given the opportunity to perform on stage at the young vic or the globe, in professional productions, and some will sack it off because the director expected them to turn up on time and put their phones away.

the thing is that you can throw opportunities and cool stuff at kids - and you should, because some of them will really value it - but at he end of the day they're kids, and being ungratful, lazy, self-defeating nihilists kind of goes with the territory.

it would be a mistake to think they get into gangs because they've nothing else to do, too. Gang membership has some very strong 'pull' factors.

 

[kittyP]

I really don't. TBH I'm not even sure what you're saying except "a complete change of view on life is needed". Which means.... what?

Kind of this

It has nothing to do with being black, white or yellow, it's to do with long-term socioeconomic circumstances that over time creates a particular kind of culture with particular practices, values and norms.

It is nothing to do with availability of jobs as such though.
When jobs were more available there were always people in gangs etc throughout history.

I guess what I am saying is for some, they feel far to alienated from a 'normal' working culture.
And to be honest I don't blame them.

 

[netbob]

There's something going on in the town centre at the moment. Bus + ambulance & police

 

[civil]

Bugger aspirations, jobs etc, personally I'd legalise drugs, shut down the independent schools, have compulsory non-military national service, teach derivatives trading at school, maybe have a govt slush fund for deprived kids to set up hedge funds, say sorry for slavery and pay for it, have workers representatives on remuneration boards, stop offering just djing workshops to kids and assuming the creative bloody economy is their saviour...

etc

that would help

 

[TruXta]

from my experience in a peckham secondary. they have very high aspirations. all of my tutor group want to go to university, and they've all been told they can (even the girl with special needs so pronounced she can't consistently write her own name). They're constantly told the can be barristers and doctors etc. psychologist is another popular ambition. we get local people from african carribean communities who have excelled in their fields to come and talk to them. we take them on visits to universities, kings college hospital, the houses of parliament (and also record labels, design houses, and media outlets) - under programmes designed to engage young people who might otherwise have no role models they can identify with.

These are brilliant programmes. For lots and lots of our girls they work to inspire and motivate them to achieve. But there is a significant number of students who might want to be a barrister or whatever, but are massively resistant to doing even the bare minimum of work. Some students want it, but don't want to work for it. We arrange for them to be involved in a local radio station, and after two weeks a significant minority can't be bothered to come (some have lives so chaotic that they can't come... but lots just CBA). They're given the opportunity to perform on stage at the young vic or the globe, in professional productions, and some will sack it off because the director expected them to turn up on time and put their phones away.

the thing is that you can throw opportunities and cool stuff at kids - and you should, because some of them will really value it - but at he end of the day they're kids, and being ungratful, lazy, self-defeating nihilists kind of goes with the territory.

it would be a mistake to think they get into gangs because they've nothing else to do, too. Gang membership has some very strong 'pull' factors.

That's a very good post, spangles, and I can see that I might have pushed the point about no jobs and no aspirations. I do get that gangs have a pull factor - it's edgy, you're cool, ill, bad, you belong for better and worse. But a lot of kids do that and then grow out of it. What makes kids here want to stay in gangs when all these opportunities exist? They're not stupid, they know that they face violence and persecution from peers as well as cops and the judiciary. So what gives? Honest question.

 

[leanderman]

I have no idea what the answers are - or any knowledge of the youths in these dire situations

The latter point shows how divided this society is.

So I like Nick H's idea of volunteering. Will look into it.

 

[quimcunx]

There's something going on in the town centre at the moment. Bus + ambulance & police

There were 4 or 5 fire engines when I went past; one firefighter on the top deck of a 133 looking out the back emergency exit window which was glassless. There was an empty stretcher outside the bus and several fire/ambulance types on the bus. Half the road taped off. someone said someone collapsed on the bus but how that would need more than one fire crew to get them off the bus I don't know.

 

[malice]

Article here:

http://www.streathamguardian.co.uk/...eenager_shot_dead_on_Tulse_Hill_estate_named/

 

[Stoat Boy]

from my experience in a peckham secondary. they have very high aspirations. all of my tutor group want to go to university, and they've all been told they can (even the girl with special needs so pronounced she can't consistently write her own name). They're constantly told the can be barristers and doctors etc. psychologist is another popular ambition. we get local people from african carribean communities who have excelled in their fields to come and talk to them. we take them on visits to universities, kings college hospital, the houses of parliament (and also record labels, design houses, and media outlets) - under programmes designed to engage young people who might otherwise have no role models they can identify with.

These are brilliant programmes. For lots and lots of our girls they work to inspire and motivate them to achieve. But there is a significant number of students who might want to be a barrister or whatever, but are massively resistant to doing even the bare minimum of work. Some students want it, but don't want to work for it. We arrange for them to be involved in a local radio station, and after two weeks a significant minority can't be bothered to come (some have lives so chaotic that they can't come... but lots just CBA). They're given the opportunity to perform on stage at the young vic or the globe, in professional productions, and some will sack it off because the director expected them to turn up on time and put their phones away.

the thing is that you can throw opportunities and cool stuff at kids - and you should, because some of them will really value it - but at he end of the day they're kids, and being ungratful, lazy, self-defeating nihilists kind of goes with the territory.

it would be a mistake to think they get into gangs because they've nothing else to do, too. Gang membership has some very strong 'pull' factors.

You see thats all lovely but the reality is for working class kids that the best way of gaining social mobility is by getting a trade.

There is no shortage of Barristers,Doctors. Actors and so on.

The realistic role models for working class black kids are people who are electricians and plumbers and so on. People who came from those same areas but who now live in the suburbs and play golf and go on foreign holidays and just do normal stuff.

I am not saying that working class kids cannot enter the top proffessions but the reality of things today is that its harder now to do this than it was in the 50's and 60's and that is not going to change any time soon.

You really want to change a 13 year old kids life then get teaching him how to re-wire a house or how to fit a bathroom and so on. Ditto with the girls.

Just dont waste their time building up aspirations that are simply unachievable for almost all working class kids now days.

 

[agricola]

You see thats all lovely but the reality is for working class kids that the best way of gaining social mobility is by getting a trade.

There is no shortage of Barristers,Doctors. Actors and so on.

The realistic role models for working class black kids are people who are electricians and plumbers and so on. People who came from those same areas but who now live in the suburbs and play golf and go on foreign holidays and just do normal stuff.

I am not saying that working class kids cannot enter the top proffessions but the reality of things today is that its harder now to do this than it was in the 50's and 60's and that is not going to change any time soon.

You really want to change a 13 year old kids life then get teaching him how to re-wire a house or how to fit a bathroom and so on. Ditto with the girls.

Just dont waste their time building up aspirations that are simply unachievable for almost all working class kids now days.

I think you are missing spanglechick's point - even if you did teach them to be (and to aspire to being) plumbers, carpenters, rocket scientists or makers of quality biscuits, the issue of them not being arsed would still raise its head - after all nearly everything requires some element of hard work and effort to become successful at it.

 

[stuff_it]

Bollocks, it takes a lot of effort to be a successful drug runner and work your way up as well. Trouble is that the benefits are more immediate....if some kid sees their mate with the latest xbox games, a scooter, buying their kid sister clothes, etc after working for not that long as a drug dealer; and they see the 'big men' out in their mercs and audis...well it all seems more attractive for some kids than doing some kind of training and then maybe still not finding work, or maybe still getting stabbed up or shot on the estate. Even more so if some of your mates have gone down the quick cash route.

Kids are and always will be a bit impetuous and head strong....if someone offered you as a kid to have access to stuff you never dream you could get for years otherwise, as well as a way to avoid ribbing or worse from the other kids in your area, well I think a lot of you might take that chance, especially if your family are struggling to get by and you see it as a way to help.

 

[London_Calling]

It's not "kids" though is it, it's boys.

I don't know anything about this as a subject but I've spent a lot of time in several libraries in the past 7-8 weeks and I'd guess well over 90% of the school students in there studying for their end of year exams are girls - hardly a boy anywhere.

I did though see a group of younger supervised kids in the swimming pool today, the girls were doing the lesson as per the female teachers instructions, the couple of boys in the group were being told off for what seemed to be being energetic. And it was constant telling off. From a distance I felt sorry for them, like they couldn't be 'good' unless they conform to the female standard.

I don't even know . . . I dunno, it just felt that if classrooms work like this only a little bit you can almost see why the boys aren't in libraries a few years further along their schooling . .

 

[stuff_it]

Drug dealing is one of the few careers you can get a jump on while you are still at school though, there may be elements of what you are saying, but for boys feeling that they should be 'providing' for their family and thmselves is something else they can't escape from.

 

[agricola]

Drug dealing is one of the few careers you can get a jump on while you are still at school though, there may be elements of what you are saying, but for boys feeling that they should be 'providing' for their family and thmselves is something else they can't escape from.

No offence, but I think that emboldened part is just a variation on the very old myth that someones criminal activity is justified because they "help the family" by doing so. Its a myth that isnt true when one talks about organized crime generally (especially dealing), and even less true when talking about a group of youths from estate X going onto estate Y and blowing someone away.

 

[Greenfish]

Since when has not having any job opportunities been a reason for shooting someone five times in the head? Would you allow a son or daughter off for that excuse? These bastards are destroying lives. And as for pontificating about whether brixton has gone trendy, do me a favour. What is urban if it's not a chattering hove of white educated liberals, exactly the type who is gentrifying brixton. I know everyone likes to feel cool and "edgy" cos they live in bricky, but the pontificating on this board is a world away from what life is like on the social housing estates that are riddled with gangs, drugs, and violence. Be fascinating to see a poll of how many people on here send their kids to schools in brixton and live in social housing - 10%?. It might be "awesome" to stroll about the market and feel superior to everyone who can't brave brixton then going back to you house share and post on here, but just remember your life is a world away to how some people live in brixton.

 

[kittyP]

Bollocks, it takes a lot of effort to be a successful drug runner and work your way up as well. Trouble is that the benefits are more immediate....if some kid sees their mate with the latest xbox games, a scooter, buying their kid sister clothes, etc after working for not that long as a drug dealer; and they see the 'big men' out in their mercs and audis...well it all seems more attractive for some kids than doing some kind of training and then maybe still not finding work, or maybe still getting stabbed up or shot on the estate. Even more so if some of your mates have gone down the quick cash route.

Kids are and always will be a bit impetuous and head strong....if someone offered you as a kid to have access to stuff you never dream you could get for years otherwise, as well as a way to avoid ribbing or worse from the other kids in your area, well I think a lot of you might take that chance, especially if your family are struggling to get by and you see it as a way to help.

Of course it takes hard work to become a drug runner/dealer but the gratification is much more 'instant' than with most other stuff.
Which you kind of said

 

[Belushi]

Well done Greenfish on a rant consisting entirely of straw men.

I mean, do you ever stop frothing at the mouth long enough to read what people are actually saying?

 

[kittyP]

It's not "kids" though is it, it's boys.

I don't know anything about this as a subject but I've spent a lot of time in several libraries in the past 7-8 weeks and I'd guess well over 90% of the school students in there studying for their end of year exams are girls - hardly a boy anywhere.

I did though see a group of younger supervised kids in the swimming pool today, the girls were doing the lesson as per the female teachers instructions, the couple of boys in the group were being told off for what seemed to be being energetic. And it was constant telling off. From a distance I felt sorry for them, like they couldn't be 'good' unless they conform to the female standard.

I don't even know . . . I dunno, it just felt that if classrooms work like this only a little bit you can almost see why the boys aren't in libraries a few years further along their schooling . .

This is often cited to be a problem in homes and education that they are often (especially when kids are younger) very female centered.
It's definitely been a problem over the years in my school.

 

[clandestino]

The Leander Road/Tulse Hill shooting was trailed as a story on the 10 O Clock News on the BBC...hasn't appeared on the programme yet.

 

[Greenfish]

Christ, people getting into dealing because they feel they want to provide for their family. Fuck me, I've heard it all now.

 

[malice]

The Leander Road/Tulse Hill shooting was trailed as a story on the 10 O Clock News on the BBC...hasn't appeared on the programme yet.

has just been on London news

 

[Greenfish]

has just been on London news

Right after boris's bike fuck up. Nice to see they've got their priorities right.

 

[Streathamite]

You see thats all lovely but the reality is for working class kids that the best way of gaining social mobility is by getting a trade.

There is no shortage of Barristers,Doctors. Actors and so on.

The realistic role models for working class black kids are people who are electricians and plumbers and so on. People who came from those same areas but who now live in the suburbs and play golf and go on foreign holidays and just do normal stuff.

I am not saying that working class kids cannot enter the top proffessions but the reality of things today is that its harder now to do this than it was in the 50's and 60's and that is not going to change any time soon.

You really want to change a 13 year old kids life then get teaching him how to re-wire a house or how to fit a bathroom and so on. Ditto with the girls.

Just dont waste their time building up aspirations that are simply unachievable for almost all working class kids now days.

Is it just me, or does this read like "we must educate young people to know their place"?

 

[footballerslegs]

Some comment from Stockwell News: http://www.stockwellnews.com/2011/0...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I asked a bus driver standing near the Academy why the traffic was held up at tea time - he said someone had been taken ill on a bus near Barclays.

 

[ericjarvis]

I hear what you're saying but worry this'll descend into a "there's a problem with black English culture wrt aspirations". Which tbh I'm not sure is true, and really not sure whether it's a good strategy.

I didn't specify black kids. The gang round here are bunch of equal opportunity thugs. The lack of aspiration affects most working class kids in Lambeth. It's more extreme when it comes to lack of role models for black kids, but it isn't a "black community" problem, it's a Lambeth problem.

 

[ericjarvis]

It sounds like you aren't clear on skills required to be a barrister or a retailer.

Actually I'm very clear about them. I'm just simplifying to point out that these aren't worthless idiots. The tragedy isn't just lives being lost. The tragedy isn't just the fear they generate. The worst thing of all is the complete waste of talent and potential.

 

[ericjarvis]

and memespring helpfully publicised the Lambeth CPCG ("Community-Police Consultative Group") monthly meetings, of which there is one tonight. The minutes for the May meeting are online here and make interesting reading (the meeting happened just after the Easter shooting outside the church on Lambert Rd).

I'm glad to see that the police, community leaders, Councillors and local MPs are taking this problem seriously, although clearly there are no easy answers, and what's particularly depressing is that the action which can be taken long term to address the problem is coming under funding pressure. As the police chief said in the meeting, "enforcement should be the last and not the first line of defense".

Anyway, I can't go tonight, but will try to make it to the next meeting on 5 July.

I was there. Full minutes will be online some time relatively soon, and I didn't take notes. However generally it was a surprisingly united and constructive meeting given the distress and anger felt by so many who were there.

There were a lot of people (myself included) saying that the eventual solutions have to be found by the people of the borough and led by them, because there's only so much that the police and the council can do. There was a lot of concern that we are being left in the lurch by spending cuts and a lack of attention to the problem because it's just black kids killing other black kids. In particular cuts in youth services (specifically early intervention programmes) were pointed out. There was a "comedy" interlude from an "authentic voice of the Daily Mail". Over and over again speakers noted that there have been reports and studies, and recommendations made over many years that simply have never been followed through.

There was a recommendation made that the CPCG should liase with the council to set up a public forum to monitor on a wider basis the complete spectrum of police, council, government and community activity related to reducing youth crime. The idea being that the council and the police will facilitate the setting up of the body, but funding will be sought from elsewhere so that it's independent of both. I discussed this after the meeting with Rachel Heywood and one of Chuku Umunna's assistants. Hopefully the three Lambeth MPs will be publicly issuing a call for such a forum to be set up, and for EVERYONE to make the effort to get involved as much as they can.

However I suspect we'll come back to the traditional problem. The spate of murders will cease and there won't be anything in the papers or on the TV, so the vast majority of Lambeth residents will return to being apathetic, and the various bodies that are supposed to actually do something will all turn instead to the latest problem to hit the headlines.

The solutions don't lie with the police or with the council. The solution requires the vast majority of Lambeth people to look for what they can do, now, and on a long term basis. We have to choose a plan of action, and then for several years stay on top of the agencies delegated to deal with it to make damn sure they actually do what has been agreed. That means all of us staying angry even when nobody has been shot for months.

 

[Stoat Boy]

Is it just me, or does this read like "we must educate young people to know their place"?

Well I suppose it does in a way. Because its certainly better than this middle class utopia that some seem to want to encourage them to believe in. Working class kids are statisically unlikely to become Doctors. Ditto Barriesters. In fact ditto any of the 'professions'. But give them a trade skill and they can climb the social ladder. Thats real. Something that most of them can relate to. And then maybe their kids can go on to become middle class. If you say to some kid from an Estate 'hey dont become a drug dealer but focus on becoming a QC instead' its going to no doubt make the well meaning M/C teacher/social worker or what ever feel on warm and cuddly on the inside but realistically the kid is just going to look blankly at them. Where as if that same kid is given lessons in how to wire up a plug sockett or similar even if he does not know any sparks I guarantee somebody in his class will and start talking about how his Uncle has a nice house and goes abroad on holidays and so on. They can relate that to that, see that for themselves.

 

[co-op]

. But give them a trade skill and they can climb the social ladder. Thats real. Something that most of them can relate to. And then maybe their kids can go on to become middle class..

I'd agree with a lot of what you say but I think you are talking about cultural obstacles (which are very real) that prevent working class young people moving into middle class professions.

But unfortunately that isn't the real reason why your thesis about social mobility is basically wrong nowadays; low to middle income groups are standing still in terms of real wages (i.e. plumbers, sparkys etc) and have been for nearly 30 years. By contrast the QCs and accountants are roaring ahead financially. Social mobility out of working class backgrounds has gone and will stay gone until we get a radical re-direction of social and economic policy away from the free market oligarchy that all our major parties now endorse. It ain't going to happen any time soon as far as I can see.

 

[co-op]

Some interesting evidence about the causes of violence here if anyone's interested

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/publications/research-digest-1-violent-crime-web