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The U.K. Gig Economy

hash tag said:
There are many reasons why the gig economy is crap and it's not just workers being restricted in how many breaks they can take, worried about losing their jobs etc. Delivery drivers when working when too tired to do so. Hgv drivers are restricted in the hours they are allowed to work and for good reason and many other drivers.
Just stumbled across this again Rail worker killed by train was fatigued and on zero-hours contract
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Multidrop drivers are covered by the current driving hours legislation it's just not enforced and the responsibility to comply is down to the 'self employed' driver, the managment of these delivery companies are well aware that the delivery rounds will require the driving time to be exceeded, the break times non existant and the speed limit to be broken in order to complete the allocated number of drops.

Driving a van

In the UK
If you drive a van for business for more than 4 hours a day, you must follow the Great Britain domestic rules on drivers’ hours.

They outline your working hours and the rest periods you must take.

You can be fined up to £300 for exceeding daily driving limits.
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If a driver has 150 drops(separate delivery destinations) thats about 14 an hour or one every 4-5 minutes, ie 4-5 minutes to ger out of the van, get in the back and find the parcel, find the front door and ring or knock, wait for the person to answer or not answer the door, (if not in then write out a card and/or tap up a neighbour), get back to the van, get in it and drive to the next drop and park before repeating the same. This is why drivers often dont use the seatbelt and why you might find that theyre filling out the card even though they've only just rung the doorbell, you might think or say to them 'can't you wait a minute?' but they only have four and a half minutes to make your delivery and drive to the next one.
 
Thats well informed pug cheers. HGV's have taco's whereas a van driver doesn't. For the self employed drivers, there is no way of enforcing those limits, thus putting
themselves and others at risk. I am not sure employers will be that hot on enforcing the hour limits.
I was reading during the night that Amazon have been taking a hit because they are working hard on Prime - 24 hour delivery. This can only make, matters worse :(
 
Your timings, of course, pug are for easy, straight forward house drops. There are flats near me when finding the block entrance...5 minutes to be let in, then another 10 minutes to find the flat after that. I visit these places on emergencies :facepalm:
Often fancied bit of couring work, driving round in a van with a few drops, not. I don't envy you guys, not one bit.
 
hash tag said:
Thats well informed pug cheers. HGV's have taco's whereas a van driver doesn't. For the self employed drivers, there is no way of enforcing those limits, thus putting
themselves and others at risk. I am not sure employers will be that hot on enforcing the hour limits.
I was reading during the night that Amazon have been taking a hit because they are working hard on Prime - 24 hour delivery. This can only make, matters worse :(
Click to expand...

The whole point of them being self-employed means that they don't have employers, they're contractors, I don't want to sound hair splitty because I know what you mean but its an important point to distinguish,- that the responsibility has been shifted onto the worker. And thats not the only thing that's shifted, if there's a turndown in business the driver still has to deliver the packages alotted to the round which could mean doing 20 drops, the fuel cost is not much less and effectively the driver is paying to work, this is shifting the business risk onto the worker.
This arrangement is really a situation where a whole lot of loopholes are being allowed to be exploited and the costs bourne by by society in terms of lower road safety, loss of tax revenue and damage to peoples lives and health as depicted in the film.
If a self-employed contractor were to abide by the letter of the law in respect of driver hours, rest breaks, speed limit, seatbelts and driving whilst unfit due to illness theyd soon be charged for the deliveries they didn't make and then the contract terminated leaving them indebted to the insurance and the hire/purchase charges for the vehicle so once theyre in theyre almost indentured to continue until the debt for the vehicle is paid off.
 
pug said:
The whole point of them being self-employed means that they don't have employers, they're contractors, I don't want to sound hair splitty because I know what you mean but its an important point to distinguish,- that the responsibility has been shifted onto the worker. And thats not the only thing that's shifted, if there's a turndown in business the driver still has to deliver the packages alotted to the round which could mean doing 20 drops, the fuel cost is not much less and effectively the driver is paying to work, this is shifting the business risk onto the worker.
This arrangement is really a situation where a whole lot of loopholes are being allowed to be exploited and the costs bourne by by society in terms of lower road safety, loss of tax revenue and damage to peoples lives and health as depicted in the film.
If a self-employed contractor were to abide by the letter of the law in respect of driver hours, rest breaks, speed limit, seatbelts and driving whilst unfit due to illness theyd soon be charged for the deliveries they didn't make and then the contract terminated leaving them indebted to the insurance and the hire/purchase charges for the vehicle so once theyre in theyre almost indentured to continue until the debt for the vehicle is paid off.
Click to expand...

Yup, there’s absolutely zero protection for drivers, it’s exactly as Ken Loach remarked on QT, it’s a master - servant relationship.
 
hash tag said:
Your timings, of course, pug are for easy, straight forward house drops. There are flats near me when finding the block entrance...5 minutes to be let in, then another 10 minutes to find the flat after that. I visit these places on emergencies :facepalm:
Often fancied bit of couring work, driving round in a van with a few drops, not. I don't envy you guys, not one bit.
Click to expand...

No, timings just an average, the easy drops (residential drops are not the easy ones really for various reasons) could be bashed out at 2-3 minutes each and that provides the time to piss about at the block of flats, if it's a bad day then the block of flats could be skipped claiming that the person wasn't in. I don't do this work anymore thank fuck but I cant imagine taking 10 minutes to find a flat once i'm in the door.
 
Marty1 said:
Yup, there’s absolutely zero protection for drivers, it’s exactly as Ken Loach remarked on QT, it’s a master - servant relationship.
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The thing is the shift of the business's business risks onto the worker makes the companies more profitable for shareholders it's more or less direct effect of freemarket capitalism on the worker and that's where the individualistic notion that people buying stuff that's delivered by these workers are responsible for their conditions don't hold much water, it's the owners/shareholders of the companies that are responsible.
 
pug said:
The thing is the shift of the business's business risks onto the worker makes the companies more profitable for shareholders it's more or less direct effect of freemarket capitalism on the worker and that's where the individualistic notion that people buying stuff that's delivered by these workers are responsible for their conditions don't hold much water, it's the owners/shareholders of the companies that are responsible.
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Amazon are now starting to muscle in on the profits of the logistics companies they use to deliver by leasing out their own Amazon liveried vans.

The various logistics companies make a handsome return by the lease of their vans to their drivers, company I used to ‘sub contract’ with charged £188 per week, (£9776 per annum), deducted from wages, so Amazon being the insatiable greedy mercenaries that they are see an opportunity.

I use/used my own van as it’s cheaper than renting a van long term but it may be possible that one day Amazon only allow logistics companies to lease vans off Amazon.
 
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I know someone who delivers for one of the supermarkets, I don't think it's as bad as the courier companies but when they went to make a suggestion to one of the managers about how something could be better, the manager just said "if you don't like it you can fuck off!"
 
weltweit said:
I know someone who delivers for one of the supermarkets, I don't think it's as bad as the courier companies but when they went to make a suggestion to one of the managers about how something could be better, the manager just said "if you don't like it you can fuck off!"
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The point was made on QT that van drivers are the tip of the ice-berg.I doubt whether reliable figures exist for the numbers of Agency-Workers in sectors such as distribution-but its the norm-they are doing the bulk of the work that is done at very many sites.The majority of these could be described as being on zero-hours contracts-all of these cannot raise objections without being told "if you don't like it you can fuck-off"-all could be described as being in a "master-servant" relationship with their employer.None of this is news except to the middle-classes.
 
hash tag said:
5* review for the film, which, judging by today's paper sounds grim. From earlier in the week though Sorry We Missed You review – Ken Loach's superb swipe at zero-hours Britain | Peter Bradshaw's film of the week
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I saw it earlier today. It’s a great film but one of the most depressing I’ve seen for a while. I liked that it also showed up zero hours contracts in care and how shit they are for both the carers and the “clients”. I see a lot of care agency staff round my way during the day and I often think about how they aren’t paid for travel time and the like.
 
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I come into contact with a few carers and many people they try and care for, or not maybe. I haven't seen film yet, but wonder if it's a bit OTT to be believable. Might see it tomorrow.
 
hash tag said:
I come into contact with a few carers and many people they try and care for, or not maybe. I haven't seen film yet, but wonder if it's a bit OTT to be believable. Might see it tomorrow.
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I think it’s not in the slightest from the care perspective. Possibly a tiny bit on the delivery front, but not so much to make it unbelievable. And tbf the case it’s based on was totally unbelievable were it not actually real. Extreme but not unbelievable. I know people who’ve worked in both worlds.
 
Saw this on Saturday at the newly accessible Ritzy (yay!). Very good I thought - rang true and horribly depressing.

Smuggled the kids in (12 and 14 - film has a 15 certificate) and the 12 year old found it quite upsetting. I suspect it got a 15 because of the swearing; in fact the subject matter is the thing that’s difficult to take, and quite right too.
 
Great film, suitably gritty, perhaps a little OTT. Seb and Liza deserve mentions.
I suspect, to a point it's preaching to the converted. As for others, I hope it hits a nerve with them but have my doubts.
saying this, I've seen things close up from the carers viewpoint and felt the film glossed over some of their issues.
 
I am working with 3 others today, 2 are "leftie", the other is a film buff. None will go to see sorry. I'm trying to encourage my film buff daughter to go see it.
 

Very good article.

It’s heartening to see the likes of the Guardian keep update reporting the delivery driver field as it keeps it in the public focus and reminds the likes of Amazon how unjust and ultimately untenable the current system is.

Three drivers were ‘off boarded’ (sacked) by Amazon from the agency I work for last week for failing to ask for photo ID on age verified parcels (alcohol, vape stuff etc) - we used to be able to use our discretion before and only ask for ID off customers if they looked under 25yrs old but Amazon decided to make it mandatory which is pretty pathetic when you’re delivering a bottle of wine to a pensioner.
 
So sat around in a holding yard for 2 hours this morning only to be told that there isn’t any work for me today, so - have a day off (unpaid of course), but they will definitely have work for me tomorrow, so I’m told.

Fks sake, but I should be used to this by now as after the glut of non-stop work of Xmas peak season, January is the polar opposite and if you make it past the mass cull of excess drivers, you then face days like this.

But basically, the gains you make over Xmas only act as cover for losses incurred in January.
 
Oh Marty, swings n roundabouts, highs and lows......I guess you don't turn up ou pay a penalty. Whats good for them.....they cant offer you anything, how about they pay a penalty? Seems fair.
 
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