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the role of language

fela fan

sunny thailand
I say that language, although the thing that separates us from other animal forms and therefore is apparantly what makes us better, is actually a double-edged sword.

It shapes our perceptions, create boundaries, and allows us to be manipulated by those who have ulterior (negative) motives.

I'd rather see if this is of any interest to debate before adding more. But in short, i'd say that so much of the fucking bullshit that goes on is coz we limit our thinking and perceptual capabilities by language.

Real truth lies outside of language. No?
 
fela fan said:
I say that language, although the thing that separates us from other animal forms and therefore is apparantly what makes us better, is actually a double-edged sword.

It shapes our perceptions, create boundaries, and allows us to be manipulated by those who have ulterior (negative) motives.

I'd rather see if this is of any interest to debate before adding more. But in short, i'd say that so much of the fucking bullshit that goes on is coz we limit our thinking and perceptual capabilities by language.

Real truth lies outside of language. No?

Is there any real truth in the first place? And even assuming that there is, could humanity ever actually comprehend it? Even if we were able to break from the reality created by language we would still be a species ruled by our nature, a nature which perpetually hunts for objective, quantifiable truth and, I suspect, the universe doesn't think the same way and doesn't give a tinkers toss about our labouring on in ignorance. Language allows us to create a comfortable, plausible idea of reality, whether it's even vaguely accurate or not who can say? But it satisfies our basic desire for 'truth' and as such is essential to us as a species.

'Truth' is an abstract result of language and our need to define the universe, I remain unconvinced that it actually exists in any form.
 
It doesn't separate us from other species. Plenty of other species have languages of one form or another - perhaps less advanced than human languages. The difficult thing is working out what the vocabularies are because the sounds are so different to human language.
 
Japey said:
It doesn't separate us from other species. Plenty of other species have languages of one form or another - perhaps less advanced than human languages. The difficult thing is working out what the vocabularies are because the sounds are so different to human language.

Do other species use language to define reality though? Or simply to react to it? As far as I know we are the only species that seeks to quantify intangiable ideas, of course this is a human assumption, perhaps dolphins are just as desperate as we are to find the 'Universal Truth', I shall be sure to ask next time I see one :)
 
It doesn't separate us from other species.

No animal on earth has the linguistic capabilities of human beings. It is truly the one thing that seperates us from lower animals. Animal communication is a reality, and we might even talk in terms of bird dialects, or whale pod accents, of turn-taking and telegraphing. There are monkey calls for bird's flying overhead, and other calls for snakes on the ground, so animals diplay discrete meaning their vocalisations - but put a snake in the air, or a bird on the ground, and there is no call for that because the essential human trait of creativity is lacking.

I'm not devaluing animals when I say that, just stating a linguistic and anthropological truth. Animal communication is a fascinating area, and one well worthy of study (which I have) but to compare the human ability with the animal is to misunderstand the gulf between the two.

To answer Fela, I agree with you that language, which in many ways is the only vehicle capable of rescuing us from the human dilemma, of delivering us from the confusion that is the world, also carries the potential to be used as a weapon against us. It is one of our only communicable definitions of the world around us, arguably the strongest in the sense that it lasts, it's sustained communication. But it can be subverted to represent to us someone else's truth masquerading as our own, and in that way undermines our individuality.

But as for the question, can truth lie outside language, I say no. Not least because the concept of a real truth doesn't work with my feelings about the universe, but also because in a practical sense, graphic or vocal communication is really the only way to convey the complex histories and arguments involved in discovering the truth. It can't be conveyed in a two-channel way, through dance or through pictorial art. So the philosophical negotation required to find a "truth" must occur in words.

Which have their flaws, as does the truth, I spose.
 
The first thing here is that by having complex language we can develop abstract ideas. We can then refine and communicate these ideas. Restricting language would restrict thought. This defines us as separate from the rest of the animal kingdom.

The second thing is that truth is not universal. Consider two people viewing a car crash. The truth would depend on the physical viewpoint and then the perception of the events, as seen from the witnesses point of view. For example:
From my point of view: we were in a queue of traffic, travelling at about 30-35, a car pulled out, my friend swerves, who was in front of me, hits a car coming other way, the fault of the car that pulled out.
From car behind me: my friend and I were travelling at high speed, he thought we were racing each other, my friend tried to pass a car, and hit a car coming the other way.
Police point of view: Car pulled out in front of my friend who tried to avoid it by swerving into the path of an oncoming car.

All are versions of the same story, all are true, but not universally so.
 
Wookey said:
But as for the question, can truth lie outside language, I say no. Not least because the concept of a real truth doesn't work with my feelings about the universe, but also because in a practical sense, graphic or vocal communication is really the only way to convey the complex histories and arguments involved in discovering the truth. It can't be conveyed in a two-channel way, through dance or through pictorial art. So the philosophical negotation required to find a "truth" must occur in words.

Agreed with a lot there mate, but not this!

Of course it depends on whether one is interpreting the meaning of 'truth' in the same way (and this in itself highlights the limitations of language), but humans have no hold or ownership over truth. Only nature and what it does can provide, can be, the truth. What is is.

I suggest that truth can be sensed by humans when they are happy, otherwise it remains hidden when one is afflicted by a negative emotion. It most certainly has nothing to do with language, although it may be possible to convey what 'truth' is using the medium of language. Truth occurs without language, it comes before language.

To me the result of having language is that things can become hidden from our consciousness because language dictates how we think. Hence the love of propaganda by those in power.

Nah mate, i reckon language actually does a good job of hiding the truth.
 
fela fan said:
Agreed with a lot there mate, but not this!

Of course it depends on whether one is interpreting the meaning of 'truth' in the same way (and this in itself highlights the limitations of language), but humans have no hold or ownership over truth. Only nature and what it does can provide, can be, the truth. What is is.

I suggest that truth can be sensed by humans when they are happy, otherwise it remains hidden when one is afflicted by a negative emotion. It most certainly has nothing to do with language, although it may be possible to convey what 'truth' is using the medium of language. Truth occurs without language, it comes before language.

To me the result of having language is that things can become hidden from our consciousness because language dictates how we think. Hence the love of propaganda by those in power.

Nah mate, i reckon language actually does a good job of hiding the truth.


Depends on what type of 'truth' you are attempting to find. Epistemologically, you seem to be arguing purely from the rationalist prspective that 'real truth' is objective and thus 'out there' BUT even the act of perception alters the 'reality' of what one is perceiving so it is impossible to really escape subjectivity. We use language as the best means available to try and turn our interpretations of phenomena into reality that we can understand and even communicate. Propoganda is the deliberate manipulation of reality but that does not mean that an honest attempt to express our perception of so-called objective reality is 'true'. This is before we even consider abstract truths such as 'happiness' 'love' 'nostalgia' or 'beauty' which are subjective emotions that can, at best, be only inter-subjectively true. The paradox of language is that without it there is no interpretation of reality, only an animalistic reaction to it, but with language the 'reality' one is attempting to understand is at best only partially defined and, at worst, it is distorted or false. In any case, one is unable to fully escape subjective interpretation. There are limitations on knowledge that will never be resolved either through language, perception, emotion or reason and we have to accept that. The closest we can get is to always be aware of these limitations.
 
YouSir said:
Do other species use language to define reality though? Or simply to react to it? As far as I know we are the only species that seeks to quantify intangiable ideas, of course this is a human assumption, perhaps dolphins are just as desperate as we are to find the 'Universal Truth', I shall be sure to ask next time I see one :)

How many humans use language to find the universal truth? And of those, how many succeed? The answers are 1, very few and 2, none.

Pondering on why we are here was a consequence of possessing an internal dialogue, not the motivation for inventing it.

Language was developed to respond to the environment early humans found themselves in, and to coordinate group strategies. i.e. exactly the same reasons that it has developed in other species. Philosophical meanderings came later.
 
Japey said:
How many humans use language to find the universal truth? And of those, how many succeed? The answers are 1, very few and 2, none.

Sounds good.

Language will never find the universal truth. It belongs to the universe, and humans are a tiny dot in that universe.

Truth is existence. It is in us, but our minds blind us to it. Specifically, since it's how the mind operates, it is language in the mind that blocks us from finding it.
 
Batley said:
Depends on what type of 'truth' you are attempting to find. Epistemologically, you seem to be arguing purely from the rationalist prspective that 'real truth' is objective and thus 'out there' BUT even the act of perception alters the 'reality' of what one is perceiving so it is impossible to really escape subjectivity.

You're kind of confirming to me that language brings limitations! I'm not actually arguing from any particular perspective, in fact none at all. So any word you bring in to try and understand my argument immediately blocks you from it!

As for subjectivity, wherever you have humans you cannot get away from it. Attempting to be objective is really rather futile. Give in and wallow in subjectivity for a while.

I'm actually arguing from my own experiences, the whole sum of them that equal my life today. There are no labels (as designated by words) that can get anywhere near what truth is. It is not objective, nor subjective, it is not anything to do with humans, and therefore language too.

My experience tells me that only upon accepting this can we 'find' the truth, which resides in all of us simply coz we are part of existence.
 
fela fan said:
I say that language, although the thing that separates us from other animal forms and therefore is apparantly what makes us better, is actually a double-edged sword.

It shapes our perceptions, create boundaries, and allows us to be manipulated by those who have ulterior (negative) motives.

I'd rather see if this is of any interest to debate before adding more. But in short, i'd say that so much of the fucking bullshit that goes on is coz we limit our thinking and perceptual capabilities by language.

Real truth lies outside of language. No?

Absolutely. We get confused and have arguments because we use words without defining what they mean first. Which is why I ask so many apparently stupid questions.
 
fela fan said:
You're kind of confirming to me that language brings limitations! .


how can it do anything but? and i'm sorry, but its limitations are outstripped immeasurably by its benefits.
 
Language is the highest analytical tool that humans posess. Saying it's not good enough is a bit shit unless you've got a better idea.
 
How would you know or express anything outside of L. Fela? Smiles? Is that going to create a body of knowledge that it's possible to transmit? Have you really only just now worked out what your thumb is for?
 
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