BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
Do we? We must have missed that part. If we're getting 90% then the last 10% isn't worth piss to be honest.
The concept of work post lockdown
- Thread starter BristolEcho
- Start date
Do we? We must have missed that part. If we're getting 90% then the last 10% isn't worth piss to be honest.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Of course you do. Do you think pay rises, improvement in conditions, enforcement of health and safety that union members win only applies to members? I mean at this very moment unions are fighting for better protection from COVID-19, that's not just going to help union members is it, it is going to help everyone.
Union wins help all workers, not just in that sector, not just in the UK but every worker worldwide, that is precisely why scabbing is such an anti-social action.
BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
Go back and read my original post and the one at the very start of the thread.
I am a member of a union it's just not the one that your pushing. We help workers that aren't members because we believe everyone deserves help, and we recognise that union membership is alien to many. We've also got a little go fund me on the page if you know anyone that needs some unconditional funds message us.
It says everything that any critique of the mainstream Union movement and how it's left us behind is met with this response.
BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
Ps: I'm well aware of how better terms and conditions are won and none of them have been due to the unions that forgot us, but thanks again we are truly grateful for our minimum wage and SSP.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Absolute fucking rubbish. I'm perfectly happy to criticise the union movement, it has become overly bureaucratic, it is often undemocratic, and far too many unions are service based.
But if you don't think things like the pay rates, working hours, anti-discrimination legislation, job security measures, health and safety even the minimum wage (with all it's problems) weren't based on union action then frankly you are utterly ignorant of history.
BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the pay rates you got us (inadequate) and our working hours (long without breaks) and our safety measures (no training, high risk and low pay) we are truly grateful.
I should have undercut my original post by recognising all the work and struggle that has gone into us even getting basic rights though you are right.
I'm not really sure what your problem is to be honest. You're part of a union that has no relevance in the workplaces I've been in. We've found other ways to support eachother and build solidarity. You're an example of why I never trusted mainstream unions, but that's okay too.
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BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
ME: As a worker Ive found it very hard to connect to unions and no one I know is a member of a mainstream union.
Union Member "ABSOLUTELY RUBBISH YOU ARE WRONG THANK US FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE"
Union Member "ABSOLUTELY RUBBISH YOU ARE WRONG THANK US FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE"
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Seriously, you asking me what my problem is when you are coming out with this crap.
I asked you, perfectly politely, what (unconditional) support mean and challenged your claim that unions don't help members. You then came out with some ahistoric nonsense about none of the better terms and conditions workers have achieved be due (partly) to the union movement (and note you just said unions in post #27 not "mainstream" unions)
I'm perfectly happy to have a discussion about the failing of unions, about trade/industry unions vs syndicalist unions. FFS I'm an anarchist I'd prefer it if more unions both worldwide and in the UK were syndicalist but it is utterly mad to suggest that many of the gains made by workers in the UK and across the world have not be achieved (in part) by workers using the tools of "mainstream" trade unions.
And I don't believe even the most syndicalist union would support non-members unconditionally, indeed even members should not be supported unconditionally.
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BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
Do you not see that everything that is wrong with your approach is encapsulated in these few words? That it's our choice as workers to stand outside rather than a failure of yours to bring us in. I'll also never be critical of those that I organise with who can't commit money and time as I recognise they are limited resources.
Unconditional is broad and was probably stretching to be fair, but we'll always work with non members wherever we can.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Not joining a union (trade, industrial or syndicalist) is a political action. Its a political action that we need to try and get people to change their mind on. Yes unions need to be more inclusive, yes they should try to be bring as many workers in as possible, yes there has been a failure to reach out to casual workers.
But that does not excuse scabbing, that doesn't excuse attacking other workers for years. When someone choose to cross a picket line it is exactly that, a choice, sometimes a very hard difficult choice but a choice nevertheless.
Members are also limited in time and money, nevertheless they give up their time and money not only for each other but for all workers. Asking someone who wants to use the power and resources that workers have collectively developed to make some sort of commitment to those workers, i.e. asking them to show some solidarity themselves, is not unacceptable.
Well that is quite a way from unconditional support. But any political group, union or otherwise, should (will!) place conditions - political, strategical and tactical - on the actions it takes for both members and non-members
Running open workshops on organising, trying to build workplace democracy, etc absolutely agree that such initiatives should be happening.
Providing legal support for someone who's still not willing to pay dues, no way. Supporting (formally) someone who crossed your picket line the week before, well I'd want to see some bloody good justification.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
No not that thread - I think it was a thread concerning gender pay equality but it was a few years ago.
I am a union member. I know that weekends off, 35 hour weeks, safety equipment, safer working conditions, etc,etc, that all workers have benefitted from are thanks to past union actions.
I've also lived through a time when I saw women not being supported in the fight for equal pay and union members not seeing the need for queer rights. I remember the closed shop being used to protect jobs for the boys and I mean boys. In the 80s I supported LGSM. I never cross a picket line. My own union couldn't help me when my employer rewrote my contract (requiring me to work bank hols and xmas day for no extra pay) or when I found a similarly 'unskilled' male co worker was paid more then me and most of the other people (mostly women) doing traditionally 'female jobs'. I understand that unions can only do so much and have limited resources themselves. So my feelings about unions are mixed.
99% of the people I worked with in the care home were not in any union - I think union membership is very low amongst cleaners/ care staff generally. When I tried to get my care home work mates to talk about unions no one was interested. Even the ones who were aware of what unions could do, felt they couldn't afford even a few pounds in dues, as every penny counted for them. Many had also subconciously bought into the strivers v scivers / work hard / daily fail / rascist / it's all someone elses fault.
I dont think that many low paid carers and cleaners (the majority of whom are women and migrants) working in the lowest paid people in the most precarious employment and often in poor housing - they don't really have any choices at all. We can't exclude the most oppressed then simly blame them for their own oppression.
If unions can only help their own membership then they are not the only answer to the problem of capitalism.
If solidarity isn't for everyone it isn't solidarity.
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friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Sorry I didnt mean to be adversarial. I feel hopeful that change can happen. Lots of people are re evaluating the whole concept of work now and we need to change the language we are all using and stop seeing everything as 'us and them'. Thank you to BristolEcho for starting this thread.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I wasn't thinking primarily of your post, but wanted to say that despite (or not 'despite' - that's the wrong word) heartfelt disagreements I think there is a lot of value in this discussion.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
The first section of your posted (that I have not quoted) I am in agreement with. The only comment I'd make would be that some closed shops reflected the discrimination of society, and that while it is clearly crucial that such discrimination be tackled I absolutely advocate a system where workers, not bosses, decide who can work.
On the above quoted paragraphs. s you stated unions (of all types) don't only help their membership, they help all workers in any numbers of ways. Of course economics constricts the choices of people and does so unequally. But by definition solidarity isn't for everyone, the solidarity of labour is made in opposition to capital. The solidarity of those on a picket cannot be extended to those attacking that solidarity by crossing the picket line.
And crossing a picket line is a choice, sometimes it is a an incredibly hard one but when other workers are taking industrial action crossing a picket line is breaking solidarity.
sunnysidedown
caput mortuum
A question for the squirrel. Do you support wildcat strikes? What if they were non-unionised workers? Would you attempt to funnel these into your union to subdue/control them?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
As I mentioned above I am an anarchist, and I've repeatedly stressed that when talk about unions I am not limiting this to modern trade unions, I am talking about all types of workers unions.
So of course I support wildcat strikes. Indeed where possible I'd much prefer wildcat strikes to legally protected industrial action. Ideally I want to see worker led unions that are able to take wildcat action.
So of course I support wildcat strikes. Indeed where possible I'd much prefer wildcat strikes to legally protected industrial action. Ideally I want to see worker led unions that are able to take wildcat action.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Ideally I'd like to see the need for wildcat action done away with
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Not to mention that when unions gain things for workers, they don't just gain them for members of the union. Rather more, as you know, could be gained if more people were union members.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
this is such an important question - how do we reverse it? We live in society were care isn't valued at all - when you do it for your own children, parents or family. you are expected to do it for for love and live on fuck all income. Or you pay a fortune for others to do the caring - when those doing the work and care are paid minimal wages and yet private companies can still make a profit out of it. It doesn't add it its a mad system.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Do closed shops still exist now? - and if they do do they tackle such discrimination?
I dont disagree with you about picket lines, I'd never cross one - but I think you are going off the point of this thread. What picket line? what action, has anyone mentioned industrial action? - who is striking for the low paid /unpaid parents/ carers / workers mentioned in the OP by BristolEcho or by kalidarkone.
Are you talking about the concept of work post lockdown? or the concept of work in the 1970s?
How do we - ordinary people - protect the low paid/ overworked essential workers? how can trade unionists work to support them them if they are not in unions?[snip]....the truth is we are cannon fodder and being massively shafted.
Our good will is relied on, has always been and we/the unions have failed to act using the power we have. If we collectively withdrew it at anytime people would die. People are massively dying now. We key workers are collectively expected to risk everything and no one is protecting us.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
The concept of work pre lockdown was alien to me. Fuck knows where I go from here...
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Closed shops are effectively illegal.
I'm mentioning then because they are most obvious and clear example where you cannot have a solidarity between all (workers), where some workers are taking actions that harm others and that it is just that those taking that action are not supported in the same way as those taking action.
Now not joining a union is not equivalent to scabbing but it is also a political action, and I don't believe it is unjust for the support provided by workers who is not willing to reciprocate that support to be less than the support they provide to each other.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On low pad migrant workers who are mainly women. Here is example of them organising themselves and winning.
www.theguardian.com
Note that the organising and action was initiated by the cleaners themselves.
They did have support of Unison and the students.
This was SOAS so high profile employer ( who outsourced cleaning) who are more likely to get into media due to the industrial action.
So this is case of low paid mainly women workers plus traditional trade union plus public support being sucessful. This of course is a particular case. A small care home isn't likely to get into the news.
I don't agree with all redsquirrel says. ( on not supporting non members) but think redsquirrel is being unfairly criticised here.
College cleaners defeated outsourcing. They’ve shown it can be done | Aditya Chakrabortty
They swept up after Soas’s lectures on exploitation, but got no sick pay. Then one worker decided she had to act, writes Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty
Note that the organising and action was initiated by the cleaners themselves.
They did have support of Unison and the students.
This was SOAS so high profile employer ( who outsourced cleaning) who are more likely to get into media due to the industrial action.
So this is case of low paid mainly women workers plus traditional trade union plus public support being sucessful. This of course is a particular case. A small care home isn't likely to get into the news.
I don't agree with all redsquirrel says. ( on not supporting non members) but think redsquirrel is being unfairly criticised here.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Ive joined my local mutual aid group.
These have sprung up across the country to offer assistance to people during the pandemic.
They are independent of the local Council.
Example of people organising and coming together to work with no boss or manager looking over ones shoulder.
Another thing. Unlike the Council where one has to fill in loads of forms to get help,the awful gatekeeping bureaucracy of the welfare state, help from the Mutual Aid is bsed on trust.
Its not the usual way of doing things. But rather refreshing.
Id be quite happy doing bits of mutual aid in my locality and spending the rest of time catching up on reading.
Rather than have to go back to "work". (Though I really need to as funds are getting low)
Going back to thread title. If work could be based around freely given mutual aid then what a different society this could be.
The idea that work is something that only happens if people are under compulsion to do it is shown to be wrong by the number of people volunteering to aid others.
This is modern example of what the anarchist Kropotkin talked about when he discussed lifeboats.
These have sprung up across the country to offer assistance to people during the pandemic.
They are independent of the local Council.
Example of people organising and coming together to work with no boss or manager looking over ones shoulder.
Another thing. Unlike the Council where one has to fill in loads of forms to get help,the awful gatekeeping bureaucracy of the welfare state, help from the Mutual Aid is bsed on trust.
Its not the usual way of doing things. But rather refreshing.
Id be quite happy doing bits of mutual aid in my locality and spending the rest of time catching up on reading.
Rather than have to go back to "work". (Though I really need to as funds are getting low)
Going back to thread title. If work could be based around freely given mutual aid then what a different society this could be.
The idea that work is something that only happens if people are under compulsion to do it is shown to be wrong by the number of people volunteering to aid others.
This is modern example of what the anarchist Kropotkin talked about when he discussed lifeboats.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
On low pad migrant workers who are mainly women. Here is example of them organising themselves and winning.
College cleaners defeated outsourcing. They’ve shown it can be done | Aditya Chakrabortty
They swept up after Soas’s lectures on exploitation, but got no sick pay. Then one worker decided she had to act, writes Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty
Note that the organising and action was initiated by the cleaners themselves.
They did have support of Unison and the students.
This was SOAS so high profile employer ( who outsourced cleaning) who are more likely to get into media due to the industrial action.
So this is case of low paid mainly women workers plus traditional trade union plus public support being sucessful. This of course is a particular case. A small care home isn't likely to get into the news.
I don't agree with all redsquirrel says. ( on not supporting non members) but think redsquirrel is being unfairly criticised here.
I heard there was a an action supporting outsourced cleaners at Greenich uni too, I heard an activist giving a talk about it a while back. But in that case the activist (who was staff and not a cleaner herself) made it her mission to support and organise the cleaners. She organised a staff and student action to draw attention to their poor pay and conditions. She got enough of the cleaners to join the union and they won, cleaning was brought back inhouse. Unfortunately I think these examples are very much the exception and not the rule.
BTW I'm not criticising Redsquirel I'm trying to debate the thread subject. It's not the same thing.
bmd
Island in the stream.
I think it’s easy to talk about how outraged we are about the value of labour but, really, if you believe that time is the most precious resource on earth and your time is the most precious of all, then how much is that worth?
I work at Tesco and I am in USDAW. What will change After this? Nothing. Not a single thing. Will you pay for more expensive food? Will the general population? Most importantly, will Tesco shareholders vote for it? No, they won’t.
Dave Lewis, ‘Dave’ the CEO or whatever the fuck he is, sends us emails telling us how proud he is of our work. Dave sent us one yesterday saying he thought it was probably ok if we started wearing face masks. This is 5 weeks after he said that he didn’t think they were ‘appropriate’. He actually sends these messages from his work email address so I sent him my thoughts. I asked him why it had taken him so long to give us the go ahead? I said I thought I knew what his reply would be. That he was following govt advice. I said that the govt would say that they were following the expert’s advice and that would dribble off into nothingness and that would be a great way to shirk responsibility. I also said it was really annoying being told someone was proud of you when you knew they were nowhere near the shop.
We are literally being kept alive by the opposite of Tory ideologies and yet no one knows this. In fact, it seems to me that the Tories are claiming whatever they want as their own. It’s not them I blame, they were always like this, it’s Jeremy Corbyn who fucked us.
I work at Tesco and I am in USDAW. What will change After this? Nothing. Not a single thing. Will you pay for more expensive food? Will the general population? Most importantly, will Tesco shareholders vote for it? No, they won’t.
Dave Lewis, ‘Dave’ the CEO or whatever the fuck he is, sends us emails telling us how proud he is of our work. Dave sent us one yesterday saying he thought it was probably ok if we started wearing face masks. This is 5 weeks after he said that he didn’t think they were ‘appropriate’. He actually sends these messages from his work email address so I sent him my thoughts. I asked him why it had taken him so long to give us the go ahead? I said I thought I knew what his reply would be. That he was following govt advice. I said that the govt would say that they were following the expert’s advice and that would dribble off into nothingness and that would be a great way to shirk responsibility. I also said it was really annoying being told someone was proud of you when you knew they were nowhere near the shop.
We are literally being kept alive by the opposite of Tory ideologies and yet no one knows this. In fact, it seems to me that the Tories are claiming whatever they want as their own. It’s not them I blame, they were always like this, it’s Jeremy Corbyn who fucked us.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The reason I use Tesco , at this time, is because its affordable. I lost my job, the street market stalls I use are gone and Ive found Tesco is one of the few places I can use safely. Previously I didn't use Tescos. I used street market , local shops and the Coop.
Its not the fault of those who use Tesco that the company pays poor wages and conditions. This is the fault of the bosses.
It also not Corbyns fault.
Big companies like Tesco must be raking it in at the moment.
This pandemic has hit a lot of people hard. But some sectors are doing well out of it.
Given that there is no reason why post lock down that a bigger percentage of the profits goes to the workforce in pay increases.
Its not the fault of those who use Tesco that the company pays poor wages and conditions. This is the fault of the bosses.
It also not Corbyns fault.
Big companies like Tesco must be raking it in at the moment.
This pandemic has hit a lot of people hard. But some sectors are doing well out of it.
Given that there is no reason why post lock down that a bigger percentage of the profits goes to the workforce in pay increases.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Oh absolutely, happy to have this discussion.
bmd
Island in the stream.
Tesco’s online business has risen hugely, 75% by some estimates. They’ve just paid out a dividend to their shareholders, whilst paying their staff 10% more during this time. To put that in context, Sunday working used to pay 100% more. There is no more pay than the minimum wage (when it was raised, Tesco told their employees that was the reason they were being laid off) at Tesco now unless it’s mandatory. There is no overtime.
This is not Corbyn’s fault, you’re right but I do believe that he would have been unable to capitalise on the Tories’ incredible ineptitude, to save his life. Never mind mine.
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