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The concept of work post lockdown

This thread was going to ask how and if we can build upon some of the themes that are coming from the current situation to start challenging deeply ingrained ideas of what skilled and important work actually is, and can we even use this period to highlight all the unseen work that we put into looking after our families, ourselves and our friends which has always been important and unpaid, but is being called upon now to hold us together.

How can we turn well meaning platitudes like clapping NHS and Care workers into action that fights for the wider rights of all paid and unpaid workers whose roles are currently unvalued economically and socially. How can we destroy the idea that the salary of the "work" we do is representative of not only our self worth, but our worth to society as a whole.

Cleaners go through my workplace almost unnoticed and the job they do is an afterthought only noticed when it's not been done. Very rarely are they seen as part of the "team." And yet their work is vital. Whether it's our office space, dancefloors, toilets, our homes, factories or the operating theatre before the "professionals" come in and complete surgery without cleaners none of this could happen, and yet they remain some of the most exploited workers in the UK with the dangers of their job largely going untalked about. The current situation is perfect to drive this point home to those that have scoffed when it's been brought up with people previously.

My personal experience of being a private sector health and social care worker working for fuck all wage and being treated like shit while managers/owners creamed off our labour. The scabby care home owner removing free staff meals for people working 12 hour days due to cost and retreating his mansion across the road. How did we ever let that happen? How do we reverse it?


Working class people are always turned against eachother and stray towards arguing our worth over people who aren't "economically active - on benfits", parents bringing up children, and other low paid workers. How often have you heard "they pay more in Aldi?" Or "Cleaners earn more than me" It hurts me every time I hear allies fall into this trap and it needs to stop.

This thought should be directed upwards. What is your boss doing right now? What are the shareholders doing? What are the wealth creators doing? Do we need them, or are they creating more complications in their detached meddling? Do we really need them to dictate how we do the jobs that we do every day? Maybe it's time to start asking them for the proof of the work that they are doing and justifying their sick days?

Clapping is lovely and all that, but the platforms for genuine change can be built here and now? I'm preaching to a converted crowd here, but I'm interested in how we can try to build momentum on this. The answer is we probably can't, but doesn't hurt to ask and you can guarantee that those who exploit us are already making plans on how they can continue with the status quo.
 
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I wondered too but you have expressed it better then I ever could.
The joke is that they do get paid more at Aldi then I do ....but that's ok its shit for both of us being potentially and increasingly exposed to c19. I have better protection then them though and get the chance to wash my hands and change my gloves and apron at least.

I'm really uncomfortable with being called a hero for doing my job and because the truth is we are cannon fodder and being massively shafted.

Our good will is relied on, has always been and we/the unions have failed to act using the power we have. If we collectively withdrew it at anytime people would die. People are massively dying now. We key workers are collectively expected to risk everything and no one is protecting us. :mad:

People will find it hard to hear but maybe this is the time to put our heads above the parapet and withdraw the goodwill? For me that means not going to work. However I'm not as at the same level of risk as alot of nurses and doctors.
This is my stream of consciousness......as it is starting to hit me what I might be going into next week and what potentially that might mean for me and my colleagues.

ETA - I will still be going to work. If only to support my colleagues but I'm getting clear about what I will and won't do -setting boundaries because I am not disposable-even if I was paid all the money in the world!
 
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Well said, BristolEcho and kalidarkone

My late father was very active in the trade union movement - starting when he was an apprentice at Hunslets in Leeds in the depression before WW2 right up until he retired in the early 1980s.

One of the many things he said has always stuck a chord with me - no-one would notice if most of the board of directors vanished, but complaints would soon start if the canteen and cleaners stopped their work, because all the "lower" activities are just as important to getting the job done as the top notch "decision - makers" ...

I attempt to run a small business, in which everyone has to pull their weight - they may be a specialist in certain things like jointery, but no-one is exempt from pushing a broom if needed. That applies to me - my speciality is getting in the work, but I'll sweep up, wash the cups and even apply paint - the main other thing which I do a lot - but usually when no other body is present (bar my safety cover).
Currently wfh as much as possible to reduce the number of people in the workshop and to protect the rest of my household. (OH is our designated shopper).

My brother recently bough chocs for the till staff at his local Aldi as well as speaking his appreciation of their efforts to deal with some really badly behaved panic shoppers.
The manager at one of our local food shops has been ruling on things like multiple buys and social distancing with a very firm hand - apparently, he recently told off a few people for breaking the rules in a sufficiently carrying voice that half the neighbours were impressed enough to praise him on social media. More importantly, people are behaving.

I do appreciate the risks and problems this pandemic is bringing to all the people who work so hard already in the health and social care fields, especially the un-sung front line and support workers. Really think the upper layers of unnecessary administration should be culled and the money saved redistributed as wages to the staff on the front line ....
 
BristolEcho said:
This thread was going to ask how and if we can build upon some of the themes that are coming from the current situation to start challenging deeply ingrained ideas of what skilled and important work actually is, and can we even use this period to highlight all the unseen work that we put into looking after our families, ourselves and our friends which has always been important and unpaid, but is being called upon now to hold us together.

How can we turn well meaning platitudes like clapping NHS and Care workers into action that fights for the wider rights of all paid and unpaid workers whose roles are currently unvalued economically and socially. How can we destroy the idea that the salary of the "work" we do is representative of not only our self worth, but our worth to society as a whole.

Cleaners go through my workplace almost unnoticed and the job they do is an afterthought only noticed when it's not been done. Very rarely are they seen as part of the "team." And yet their work is vital. Whether it's our office space, dancefloors, toilets, our homes, factories or the operating theatre before the "professionals" come in and complete surgery without cleaners none of this could happen, and yet they remain some of the most exploited workers in the UK with the dangers of their job largely going untalked about. The current situation is perfect to drive this point home to those that have scoffed when it's been brought up with people previously.

My personal experience of being a private sector health and social care worker working for fuck all wage and being treated like shit while managers/owners creamed off our labour. The scabby care home owner removing free staff meals for people working 12 hour days due to cost and retreating his mansion across the road. How did we ever let that happen? How do we reverse it?


Working class people are always turned against eachother and stray towards arguing our worth over people who aren't "economically active - on benfits", parents bringing up children, and other low paid workers. How often have you heard "they pay more in Aldi?" Or "Cleaners earn more than me" It hurts me every time I hear allies fall into this trap and it needs to stop.

This thought should be directed upwards. What is your boss doing right now? What are the shareholders doing? What are the wealth creators doing? Do we need them, or are they creating more complications in their detached meddling? Do we really need them to dictate how we do the jobs that we do every day? Maybe it's time to start asking them for the proof of the work that they are doing and justifying their sick days?

Clapping is lovely and all that, but the platforms for genuine change can be built here and now? I'm preaching to a converted crowd here, but I'm interested in how we can try to build momentum on this. The answer is we probably can't, but doesn't hurt to ask and you can guarantee that those who exploit us are already making plans on how they can continue with the status quo.
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Yep, cleaners are currently doing a highly valued and dangerous job - be nice to see a full time cleaner on £50k per year but sadly things will likely go back to ‘normal’ when this pandemic eventually passes.
 
Marty1 said:
Yep, cleaners are currently doing a highly valued and dangerous job - be nice to see a full time cleaner on £50k per year but sadly things will likely go back to ‘normal’ when this pandemic eventually passes.
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Or not. That will be the time to properly strike and take action and redress the balance in terms of what and how key workers are valued.
 
StoneRoad said:
Well said, BristolEcho and kalidarkone

My late father was very active in the trade union movement - starting when he was an apprentice at Hunslets in Leeds in the depression before WW2 right up until he retired in the early 1980s.

One of the many things he said has always stuck a chord with me - no-one would notice if most of the board of directors vanished, but complaints would soon start if the canteen and cleaners stopped their work, because all the "lower" activities are just as important to getting the job done as the top notch "decision - makers" ...

I attempt to run a small business, in which everyone has to pull their weight - they may be a specialist in certain things like jointery, but no-one is exempt from pushing a broom if needed. That applies to me - my speciality is getting in the work, but I'll sweep up, wash the cups and even apply paint - the main other thing which I do a lot - but usually when no other body is present (bar my safety cover).
Currently wfh as much as possible to reduce the number of people in the workshop and to protect the rest of my household. (OH is our designated shopper).

My brother recently bough chocs for the till staff at his local Aldi as well as speaking his appreciation of their efforts to deal with some really badly behaved panic shoppers.
The manager at one of our local food shops has been ruling on things like multiple buys and social distancing with a very firm hand - apparently, he recently told off a few people for breaking the rules in a sufficiently carrying voice that half the neighbours were impressed enough to praise him on social media. More importantly, people are behaving.

I do appreciate the risks and problems this pandemic is bringing to all the people who work so hard already in the health and social care fields, especially the un-sung front line and support workers. Really think the upper layers of unnecessary administration should be culled and the money saved redistributed as wages to the staff on the front line ....
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Spare a thought for the unseen and rarely considered medical librarians who support the information needs of nurses, doctors and consultants.
 
Often when on nights at the hospital I think about how invisible the night cleaners are....they are literally the cleaning fairies. I have made a point of saying hello to them and gradually getting to know their names. Always offer them some fresh filtered coffee if I've made some and they pop to the kitchen while I'm in there.

I'm also aware that the cleaners that do the deep cleaning of spaces where a potentially infectious patient has been are amongst the lowest paid of the hospital staff. Registered nurses on a band 5 wage only just make the national average wage and that's after a few increments. Cleaners are band 2.
 
Hospital cleaners are vital from a public health perspective and have some of the shabbiest contracts around after being tuped out of the NHS. Unfortunately I see another round of austerity coming after this is all over and it will be the people at the bottom who get to pay again
 
Good thread BristolEcho I think this whole situation throws up a lot of questions - "essential" vs "non-essential" work, work life balances, working environments, local control over work *(as StoneRoad points out things are being done outside managements directives).

One thing I'd be interested in is in seeing some comparisons to the three day week.
 
I think 15 to 18 pound an hour and double time during weekends and holidays, treble time at christmas. First year performance review, second year other skills first aid, traffic control, evacuation drills, bomb threats etc 5% annual raise, until 10 years service or retirement.
 
I agree with nadia its likely after this that the working class will get another round of austerity.

A comment on BristolEcho talking about unnoticed workers. Its worse than unnoticed the structure of work makes sure they are not noticed. The office buildings I ( used to go to) in the City of London are designed and managed in way that makes sure the working class is segregated.

Delivery people, maintenance workers, cleaners etc who do the work to keep a big office building functioning can't use the main reception. They have to go around the back and use the goods lift. Normally one goods lift unlike the row of lifts in front reception.

This is treated as just the normal way of doing things. In reality there is no need to do this. For example I have had to go to back entrance, take lift to basement,, walk along a tunnel and take another goods lift to reception to just deliver a letter. If I was allowed to use front reception it would have taken a few minutes instead of ten- waiting for the one goods lift and walking along a long tunnel. Going back the same way.

The City caused the last economic crisis which led to "austerity" for us but not for them. As the time there was talk of supporting the so called real economy and curbing the power of the City. It didn't turn out like that.
 
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On concept of work. People are being told to volunteer by the authorities

I think as part of what work is post lockdown voluntary work should be seen as work. In sense that it helps to reproduce society.

Work is defined as something one gets paid for. Doing voluntary work is imo work. It gets downgraded in a society that functions through buying and selling labour.
 
Gramsci said:
I agree with nadia its likely after this that the working class will get another round of austerity.

A comment on BristolEcho talking about unnoticed workers. Its worse than unnoticed the structure of work makes sure they are not noticed. The office buildings I ( used to go to) in the City of London are designed and managed in way that makes sure the working class is segregated.

Delivery people, maintenance workers, cleaners etc who do the work to keep a big office building functioning can't use the main reception. They have to go around the back and use the goods lift. Normally one goods lift unlike the row of lifts in front reception.

This is treated as just the normal way of doing things. In reality there is no need to do this. For example I have had to go to back entrance, take lift to basement,, walk along a tunnel and take another goods lift to reception to just deliver a letter. If I was allowed to use front reception it would have taken a few minutes instead of ten- waiting for the one goods lift and walking along a long tunnel. Going back the same way.

The City caused the last economic crisis which led to "austerity" for us but not for them. As the time there was talk of supporting the so called real economy and curbing the power of the City. It didn't turn out like that.
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Fks sake, it’s just pathetic isn’t it.

Ive had similar - pull up to swanky office building and being told by reception that they can’t accept an singular A4 parcel - it needs to be delivered to goods in at rear of building - quarter of a mile drive bk out of main entrance on ring road then wait to be buzzed in through barrier :facepalm:
 
Great post BristolEcho.

I've nothing as eloquent to say but as a support worker, the clapping boils my blood, of I'm honest.
It's typical Tory (or politics generally) platitude that was probably though at some brain storming session.

We got a letter from the MD saying how well we're doing, and that seemed to make it worse. It was like 'yeah, sound we know we're doing well - it's our job - it still doesn't stop the feelong that we're going to get financially fucked over when this is done with.'
 
I read two books on this issue recently by David Frayne (Refusal of Work) and Kathi Weeks (problem of work), and I was doing so through the lens of someone who claims Carer's Allowance for a High Care DLA daughter, that is classed by ONS as 'work' and contributes to the stats that the government compile to claim 'full employment'. But have been treated as 'a benefit scrounger' at the same time (by Daily Mail-type mentalities), a prejudice supposedly I can't answer back to because 'I don't work' (according to the prejudiced one's anyway).

It fucked my mental health as well so claimed ESA support (and I am not going to get into it here, but there is a certain 'work' involved in just keeping your head above water - when CMHT's say 'well you need to work at your 'recovery' - I think to myself my mind is working overtime ot stay sane - and Iend up thinking 'what is work?' W=FD? Anyways, not my main point).

When I tried to explain that the DWP required 35 hours of care for the (£66.15pw) Carer's this wasn't the same as a care worker doing the same thing at £7.50ph which according to them is 'proper' work because it's not benefits and is 'paid'. When I challenge this I then often get people through cognitive dissonance questioning whether my daughter 'really needs the care'. But even that isn't the main point.

I remember certain people finding out that I had given up a PhD in political theory to care for my daughter (it was impossible to do both), the person ostensibly defending me, by way of telling me I am supposed to know my oats (I don't always obviously, it isn't carte blanche, still needs the evidence and decent argument, it's not the person or the 'title'), but used the phrase that Ian Duncan smith used about benefits that the unemployed were a waste of resources, and was shocked that I might consider my caring for my daughter whilst she went through double figures General Anaesthetics (including 6 or so skull operations) in her first 6 years, might be more important 'work' than a bloody PhD, and not a 'waste of resources'. Of course as gossip goes people got wind of this, but then it turns out before I started the PhD at age 39 I drove taxis having recovered from a previous mental health issue, so I then had that I was a 'waste of resources' because 'I could drive taxis', so the affective labour (and to be honest by then really poor mental health) wasn't good enough as I had the skills of up to PhD, but really I should be taxi driving, not being a scrounger.... but that isn't the main point! ;-)

But even then it was ,'it's ok to bash benefits because we've always worked'. So I give the bog standard, 'well it's insurance because you never know! And if you get rid of it you won't have it when the time comes." (i also point out sometimes that rather than Cameron's claim that people who arfe working shouldn't earn less than people on benefits, given benefits are fixed and are related to below the minimum wage (except in the case of disability, and even then not by much... but I joke, it's ok mate if you are jealous of people's disability you have Munchausen, get yourself a sick note), then what Cameron meant as propaganda is if people create an ideological climate where it's ok to bash benefits, then those benefits can be lowered (effectively the 1% freeze - as also in public services that also had to be maligned with arguments about disparity between public and private sector pay) and this means the ironically given austerity was partially about lowering the average wage to reconsolidate capital after the crisis, and creating the climate through scapegoating and mantras about 'hard work' to do that (even though in the formula of inequality r>g (where r is the return on capital investment and g growth) the 'labour-time' is in g not r and austerity was to reconsolidate r.) then benefit bashing is pretty much taking part in the ideology of lowering their own average wage. so... after all this tl;dr

It is with interest that many people who have previously said they can participate in benefit bashing are having to claim Universal Credit (bear in mind the system is so understaffed than even without the 'special measures' that of necessity lower staff levels, the number claiming is 9.5 times the weekly average (around 950,000 I believe).

Wasn't this the point of the welfare state in the first place?

[edit: I will say that during this time, despite my mental health and the care I did, I set up a small publishing company on DWP permitted earnings (and as it was a Ltd Company B16 form for directors claiming ESA) and a founded a mental health activist group, but you know I am now both a cheat AND still lazy


So, as to the main post, yeah, i fucking hope it gets people to reassess!
 
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Alastor Trivia said:
I read two books on this issue recently by David Frayne (Refusal of Work) and Kathi Weeks (problem of work), and I was doing so through the lens of someone who claims Carer's Allowance for a High Care DLA daughter, that is classed by ONS as 'work' and contributes to the stats that the government compile to claim 'full employment'. But have been treated as 'a benefit scrounger' at the same time (by Daily Mail-type mentalities), a prejudice supposedly I can't answer back to because 'I don't work' (according to the prejudiced one's anyway).

It fucked my mental health as well so claimed ESA support (and I am not going to get into it here, but there is a certain 'work' involved in just keeping your head above water - when CMHT's say 'well you need to work at your 'recovery' - I think to myself my mind is working overtime ot stay sane - and Iend up thinking 'what is work?' W=FD? Anyways, not my main point).

When I tried to explain that the DWP required 35 hours of care for the (£66.15pw) Carer's this wasn't the same as a care worker doing the same thing at £7.50ph which according to them is 'proper' work because it's not benefits and is 'paid'. When I challenge this I then often get people through cognitive dissonance questioning whether my daughter 'really needs the care'. But even that isn't the main point.

I remember certain people finding out that I had given up a PhD in political theory to care for my daughter (it was impossible to do both), the person ostensibly defending me, by way of telling me I am supposed to know my oats (I don't always obviously, it isn't carte blanche, still needs the evidence and decent argument, it's not the person or the 'title'), but used the phrase that Ian Duncan smith used about benefits that the unemployed were a waste of resources, and was shocked that I might consider my caring for my daughter whilst she went through double figures General Anaesthetics (including 6 or so skull operations) in her first 6 years, might be more important 'work' than a bloody PhD, and not a 'waste of resources'. Of course as gossip goes people got wind of this, but then it turns out before I started the PhD at age 39 I drove taxis having recovered from a previous mental health issue, so I then had that I was a 'waste of resources' because 'I could drive taxis', so the affective labour (and to be honest by then really poor mental health) wasn't good enough as I had the skills of up to PhD, but really I should be taxi driving, not being a scrounger.... but that isn't the main point! ;-)

But even then it was ,'it's ok to bash benefits because we've always worked'. So I give the bog standard, 'well it's insurance because you never know! And if you get rid of it you won't have it when the time comes." (i also point out sometimes that rather than Cameron's claim that people who arfe working shouldn't earn less than people on benefits, given benefits are fixed and are related to below the minimum wage (except in the case of disability, and even then not by much... but I joke, it's ok mate if you are jealous of people's disability you have Munchausen, get yourself a sick note), then what Cameron meant as propaganda is if people create an ideological climate where it's ok to bash benefits, then those benefits can be lowered (effectively the 1% freeze - as also in public services that also had to be maligned with arguments about disparity between public and private sector pay) and this means the ironically given austerity was partially about lowering the average wage to reconsolidate capital after the crisis, and creating the climate through scapegoating and mantras about 'hard work' to do that (even though in the formula of inequality r>g (where r is the return on capital investment and g growth) the 'labour-time' is in g not r and austerity was to reconsolidate r.) then benefit bashing is pretty much taking part in the ideology of lowering their own average wage. so... after all this tl;dr

It is with interest that many people who have previously said they can participate in benefit bashing are having to claim Universal Credit (bear in mind the system is so understaffed than even without the 'special measures' that of necessity lower staff levels, the number claiming is 9.5 times the weekly average (around 950,000 I believe).

Wasn't this the point of the welfare state in the first place?


So, as to the main post, yeah, i fucking hope it gets people to reassess!
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I should say re: W=FxD it means Work = Force times Distance, it is a basic physics formula
 
I'll have to track it down and I don't have a subscription, but there was an article a month or so in of all right wing mainstream media outlets, The Economist, that pointed out that remuneration was in an indirect relation to the importance of the work. ie the more important the work the lower the pay.

Which is being played out right now,'lower' paid workers having to work and middle class earners working from home in lockdown
 
Pickman's model said:
Spare a thought for the unseen and rarely considered medical librarians who support the information needs of nurses, doctors and consultants.
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Yep - this is the crux of the issue isn't it? Often on shit pay, through agencies etc. I spoke to someone in a similar role who had never had any form of supervision and was scared to speak about due to their temporary contract. Needs to be a focus for organising.

kalidarkone said:
Often when on nights at the hospital I think about how invisible the night cleaners are....they are literally the cleaning fairies. I have made a point of saying hello to them and gradually getting to know their names. Always offer them some fresh filtered coffee if I've made some and they pop to the kitchen while I'm in there.

I'm also aware that the cleaners that do the deep cleaning of spaces where a potentially infectious patient has been are amongst the lowest paid of the hospital staff. Registered nurses on a band 5 wage only just make the national average wage and that's after a few increments. Cleaners are band 2.
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Done similar with the people in our offices. It makes my blood boil when they come around cleaning and people don't even acknowledge them. I probably go over the top and am patronising though.

I've noticed in some services that there is a clear divide between day and night staff and often an atmosphere of contention. Again something that needs to be worked on as this divide is one that helps bosses. I'd imagine this is less of an issue for hospitals due to the cross over between day and night staff?

Gramsci said:
On concept of work. People are being told to volunteer by the authorities

I think as part of what work is post lockdown voluntary work should be seen as work. In sense that it helps to reproduce society.

Work is defined as something one gets paid for. Doing voluntary work is imo work. It gets downgraded in a society that functions through buying and selling labour.
Click to expand...

I agree - I know volunteer work is looked down upon amongst people that share similar views to me, but within the current system volunteering was the best thing that I ever did and probably changed my direction in life. The organisation took it seriously and treated me as a member of staff, which as you say I was, and as a result it opened up a line of work that I hadn't considered. It needs to be done properly though and a lot of the volunteering I've seen since then hasn't been conducted in this way. Really if we could change the way things work so that we didn't have to work for our basic needs to be met then all work could be voluntary and non-coercive. (Sorry straying into clichés there)

steveo87 said:
Great post BristolEcho.

I've nothing as eloquent to say but as a support worker, the clapping boils my blood, of I'm honest.
It's typical Tory (or politics generally) platitude that was probably though at some brain storming session.

We got a letter from the MD saying how well we're doing, and that seemed to make it worse. It was like 'yeah, sound we know we're doing well - it's our job - it still doesn't stop the feelong that we're going to get financially fucked over when this is done with.'
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The private/charity health and social care sector makes my blood boil. I could write all day on it! I'm not going to today though! The state of this sector highlights the failings of the current trade union approach.
 
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I'm glad that the entire world has suddenly realised the worth and the dedication of those working in care homes. Lets hope all care work will stop being routinely described as low skilled.

For too long care workers have been described as low skilled and they remain some of the lowest paid workers in the country, yet recently we have seen their dedication and bravery in working through the Coronavirus. A workforce that is overwhelmingly made up of female and migrant workers, which has a lot do with the exploitation they have been subjected to, has shown just how essential they are
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I found very little solidarity on these boards a few of years ago when I was frustrated with the low pay and worsening conditions while working in a care home (can't recall which thread) Some urb posters even said it was my own failing for not trying to organise a union, but with no union experience, no support - I didn't see how I could change the entire culture, the entire system. Most of the staff were women and not british - and most were far too busy working all the hours/ or juggling several low paid jobs while raising families to have any time or energy to stand up to employers. Can we really expect the 'unskilled' lowest paid, overworked non-unionised workers to do everything to change this system? Unions seem to be battling only to save their own - but most cleaners and carers are not protected by unions.

We need real change at the top and a change in the way that care is funded or it will always be about underpaying staff at the sharp end.
 
I felt and still feel utterly betrayed by the trade union movement. When I ask how have we let this happen, the question is aimed at the unions as they have been complicit in it and are the ones that have allowed it to happen. How is the fact that organising and trade unionism are alien concepts to many of us in the sector a fault of us as individuals? That bosses have been allowed to abuse us so much that we believe they must be right as otherwise they surely wouldn't get away with it.

It is a reflection of how Unions have failed to connect to us as workers individually and collectively. The fact that you got blamed highlights that to be honest. That simply joining a mainstream union that is so entwined and reliant upon the people that exploit us is an answer is hilarious.

The classic line is "If you feel that the union doesn't represent you then join it and change it." Why should we have to fight against supposed allies? It's exhausting enough going to work and putting up with our bosses.

It is a lie of those trade unions that joining them is the only the way to fight for change collectively. Engaging, educating and supporting members and non members unconditionally is the best way to build trust and solidarity. I agree that it can't just fall upon us, but also we can't rely on them so the aim is for some of us to share skills, experience and support that we have learnt through our own struggles with those that need it.

My partner in sin absolutely hated the idea of organising and going to meetings so never did, but has been by far one of the most successful that I've ever known simply by being there for their workmates. It doesn't need to be formal, jargon/theory led or wrapped up in policy which often puts people off. It can take 1-3 people working together to cause a storm for bosses. :D

To be honest the seemingly smallest wins are the favourite most of the time, and sometimes all we can do is listen and understand what someone's situation is without making them feel like it's on them individually to do anything about it.

Sorry I hope that this has come across the right way as I kind of feel like I've now said what others said in that thread. In a wider context I think those of us that can should strive to build the platforms that allow all of our voices to be heard - this situation does give us more hope of being able to achieve this.
 
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friendofdorothy said:
I found very little solidarity on these boards a few of years ago when I was frustrated with the low pay and worsening conditions while working in a care home (can't recall which thread) Some urb posters even said it was my own failing for not trying to organise a union, but with no union experience, no support - I didn't see how I could change the entire culture, the entire system. ]
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Are you talking about the conversation here? If so I think you have massively misunderstood what was being said.

friendofdorothy said:
Unions seem to be battling only to save their own - but most cleaners and carers are not protected by unions.
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BristolEcho said:
Engaging, educating and supporting members and non members unconditionally is the best way to build trust and solidarity.
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What are you two actually saying here? What does "support" mean?
Personally I'd much prefer it is unions were able to bargain for their members separately (i.e. that pay and conditions won by union struggle would only apply to members) but that's not the case, when unions win a fight all workers (both those in the industry and those outside) benefit from the win.
Or are you saying that unions should formally/legally represent staff that are not members of the union?

As for engaging and educating non-members, well I don't accept that most unions don't do that. Many unions will have workshops that are open to both members and non-members, will be at the forefront of things like publishing pay gaps or anti-racism activities.

The service focused nature of much of modern unionism has been and continues to be a disaster, and certainly contributed to many unions being too slow to address issues like casualisation. There are real issues that need to be challenged within the union movement but the idea that unions only fight for their members is actually bloody insulting to millions of union members. There's a fuck load I'll criticise about UCU but as members we took 22 days strike to fight for things that would have benefitted all staff, including the scab filth that walked passed our picket lines.
 
Last edited:
redsquirrel said:
Are you talking about the conversation here? If so I think you have massively misunderstood what was being said.



What are you two actually saying here? What does "support" mean?
Personally I'd much prefer it is unions were able to bargain for their members separately (i.e. that pay and conditions won by union struggle would only apply to members) but that's not the case, when unions win a fight all workers (both those in the industry and those outside) benefit from the win.
Or are you saying that unions should formally/legally represent staff that are not members of the union?

As for engaging and educating non-members, well I don't accept that most unions don't do that. Many unions will have workshops that are open to both members and non-members, will be at the forefront of things like publishing pay gaps or anti-racism activities.

The service focused nature of much of modern unionism has been and continues to be a disaster, and certainly contributed to many unions being too slow to address issues like casualisation. There are real issues that need to be challenged within the union movement but the idea that unions only fight for their members is actually bloody insulting to millions of union members. There's a fuck load I'll criticise about UCU but as members we took 22 days strike to fight for things that would have benefitted all staff, including the scab filth that walked passed our picket lines.
Click to expand...

Above is an example of everything that I listed in my post.

I'm glad you don't accept it.
 
BristolEcho said:
Above is an example of everything that I listed in my post.

I'm glad you don't accept it.
Click to expand...
Solidarity goes both ways. Not being in a union is itself an attack on solidarity. You seem to be arguing that unions should spend their, relatively scare, resources formally/legally and unconditionally(!) representing non-members.

People who are not union members already get 90+% of the benefits of union membership. When we strike they don't give up their pay or put their necks on on the line but they get the benefits of whatever pay/conditions are won.
The main benefit union members take from their membership that non-members don't get is individual representation in grievance/disciplinaries/etc, if unions represent all non-members unconditionally (leaving aside whether that is possible) what the fuck would be the point of membership?

If a non-member comes to me asking for my help too fucking right that the very minimum I'm going to ask of them is to join the union. Whereas others have been putting their money and (hopefully) time into organising and fighting, this person has chosen to stand outside. OK that's their choice but then they go behind members in the queue when they help.
 
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