The 3pm Blackout & Women's Football

[Alex W]

There's a potentially contentious issue brewing in football that affects both women's football and men's football, which places us squarely in the crosshairs - proposals to add an exemption to the Saturday 3pm TV blackout for women's football. What's everyone's view?

Saturday 3pm TV blackout should be lifted for women’s football, says Government

My two cents is that if you think any exemption to the 3pm blackout won't just empower the massive vested interests within the men's game to push for further exemptions for men's football ("what about the national league? what about overseas football?"), then I have a bridge to sell you.

I worry that overtime this will mean the blackout is chipped away until it doesn't meaningfully exist, which would have a catastrophic (possibly terminal) effect on many non-league clubs. Having such a deep and well-attended pyramid is utterly unique in world football, and we should do everything we can to preserve it IMO.

 

[wtfftw]

I've never quite understood how the 3pm blackout works. Is the idea that football fans go to see lower league teams play as they can't watch the big one on tv (or in a stadium as can't get tickets)?

 

[Roger D]

Yes it is. The noticeable drop in gates at many non league clubs when Champions League is on TV midweek suggests it's probably pretty effective too.

I personally think removing the blackout would be an error.

 

[Bus Honeygun]

Yes it is. The noticeable drop in gates at many non league clubs when Champions League is on TV midweek suggests it's probably pretty effective too.

Yeah, not just non-league but League 1 and 2 as well.

 

[Cat Daisy]

Yes it is. The noticeable drop in gates at many non league clubs when Champions League is on TV midweek suggests it's probably pretty effective too.

I personally think removing the blackout would be an error.

I think there are other reasons why midweek games are not so attractive - and the poorer gates apply to teams who play Monday's too. Exacerbated by the endless minutes now added on, late night travel being one.
And I won't be watching WSL games at 3pm Saturday. I don't like the "drawbridge raising" by the top tiers of the womens' game - anything that was fresh about those levels of the game is now stale with big money as the rich continue to get richer.

 

[Roger D]

Many non league clubs suffer a drop on normal Tuesday gates when CL is on telly. In my time at Hamlet it was noticeable any CL day but exacerbated if cold and / or wet or a London team was playing. I see a similar pattern where I now live and am aware of it elsewhere in England.

I totally agree other factors influence the overall reduction in gate for midweek matches, live CL football on TV causes a further drop at many clubs.

 

[scousedom]

Germany has no blackout. German attendances through the pyramid are fine.
The problem isn’t the blackout. The problem is admission prices.

 

[Roger D]

I went to Petersfield Town the other day. £7 to get in for adults, dirt cheap for kids (£1 I think) and free for members of their junior set up. The locals were saying the gate was substantially down due to Portsmouth being at home (a normal occurrence apparently.) Given the cost base of running a team at that level it's going to be a challenge to drive their admission prices much lower. Imagine if Pompey started to be televised regularly?

Admission prices for families at the top end of non league are heading towards stupid levels but further down it normally remains a relatively cheap family at out. Those are the clubs I fear for. Bigger clubs can cut the wage bill by x% if gates fall, further down the pyramid that's not quite so easy as it then starts hitting players currently on little more than petrol money to travel to away games, training etc. Then they start staying at home to watch their team on TV instead of playing, you risk a vicious circle.

 

[scousedom]

Okay maybe it’s a little reductive to say it’s all admission prices. It’s part admission prices and part the PL not passing down the wealth.

However, as a fan of a PL club I’d say that it’s a ridiculous state of affairs that someone in the US can legally watch on TB every game my side play but if I want to I have to break the law.

So. Scrap the blackout, which will increase the amount TV rights go for, but pass that down the food chain so lower league clubs can charge next to nothing in admission.

(I realise though that the realpolitik of that is dubious at best. Even if it did happen lower league clubs would use it to subsidise admission, they’d just pay higher player wages).

 

[Alex W]

Germany has no blackout. German attendances through the pyramid are fine.
The problem isn’t the blackout. The problem is admission prices.

The lower end of German pyramid isn't anywhere near as well attended as the same level in England.

For comparison, Altona play in the 5th tier. I don't know what the average attendance at that level is, but it's certainly nowhere near the thousands that are watching National League games every week.

 

[scousedom]

The lower end of German pyramid isn't anywhere near as well attended as the same level in England.

For comparison, Altona play in the 5th tier. I don't know what the average attendance at that level is, but it's certainly nowhere near the thousands that are watching National League games every week.

That’s not a fair comparison though. From fourth tier down is regional. I think there are 5 regions? Someone will correct me. If so, and if 16 teams per league, the top team in the fifth tier regionally are effectively ranked 18+18+20+(5x16)=136. Not 93rd (as top of National League would be). A fairer comparison to the very top of the fifth tier then is probably somewhere halfway down Conference North/South.

 

[Alex W]

From fourth tier down is regional.

So we're agreed that the German pyramid isn't as deep as the English pyramid then?

 

[scousedom]

No. We’re agreed Germany is a bigger country with a stronger cultural tradition of federalisation / regionalisation.

 

[Alex W]

No. We’re agreed Germany is a bigger country with a stronger cultural tradition of federalisation / regionalisation.

And how do German attendances compare to English attendances at the 4th and 5th tiers? As you say, it's a more populated country so they should be higher, but they're not. They're also not higher at the 6th and 7th tiers.

My point still stands - the English league pyramid has uniquely high attendances at the lower end, and the UK is the only country with a 3pm Saturday blackout. If you believe that's unrelated, that's fine. But it's a remarkable coincidence if it is, and I don't think it's worth the risk of putting it to the test.

 

[scousedom]

And how do German attendances compare to English attendances at the 4th and 5th tiers? As you say, it's a more populated country so they should be higher, but they're not. They're also not higher at the 6th and 7th tiers.

My point still stands - the English league pyramid has uniquely high attendances at the lower end, and the UK is the only country with a 3pm Saturday blackout. If you believe that's unrelated, that's fine. But it's a remarkable coincidence if it is, and I don't think it's worth the risk of putting it to the test.

I don’t know. Your point may still stand. I didn’t say it didn’t. I just said you don’t prove your point by comparing the 93rd team in one country with the 136th in the other.

If you want to test your point vs Germany, by all means compare attendances like for like.

 

[Alex W]

I don’t know. Your point may still stand. I didn’t say it didn’t. I just said you don’t prove your point by comparing the 93rd team in one country with the 136th in the other.

If you want to test your point vs Germany, by all means compare attendances like for like.

Anyway, this is all a bit of a sideshow.

As you say, you're a fan of a Premier League club who would like to watch them more on the TV. If you're watching them on SkySports at 3pm on a Saturday, it means you're unlikely to be at a local non-league club. That's fewer non-league attendees, which hurts the vibrancy and community role that these clubs play.

And even if the Premier League was guilt-tripped into giving more money to non-league sides (and I'd trust them to do that as far as I could throw them), it turns non-league clubs into vassals that are reliant on the generosity of massive superclubs, when they should be local businesses that are viable in their own right.

 

[scousedom]

Anyway, this is all a bit of a sideshow.

So we agree you agree.

If you're watching them on SkySports at 3pm on a Saturday, it means you're unlikely to be at a local non-league club.

No. If my non league club are at home I’ll be there. And if my non league club are away then once my kids are old enough to do aways, I’ll be there. I was just pointing out the perversity of someone in America (e.g.) having more right of access to English teams than I do.

I think I misunderstood the bit at the top where you asked for peoples view. I thought you were asking for peoples views. I didn’t realise you were asking for peoples agreement.

As to the point on clubs being viable business in their own right etc, I completely agree. But just as it’s highly unlikely that the PL will share the wealth of a dropped blackout, it’s equally unlikely that (most) football clubs will ever run themselves sensibly, or would see greater PL payments as anything other than a short term boost to the wage budget and piss it up the wall accordingly.

 

[DHFC_Programmes]

It does not specifically cover 3pm blackout but Scolly has written a decent article for this Sunday's programme about these changes and we will be putting it on the website on Monday (but please buy a programme)

Alex W If you want to write a column on a regular/semi regular basis on this I am happy to publish it as you know your beans.

 

[Alex W]

I think I misunderstood the bit at the top where you asked for peoples view. I thought you were asking for peoples views. I didn’t realise you were asking for peoples agreement.

I am interested in people's views, but it's perfectly fair to challenge those views when I disagree or when I believe the facts they're using to make their argument are objectively wrong.

Overseas fans having greater access to televised English football is, as you say, an oddity. I personally don't think correcting that oddity is worth imperiling the status of non-league football, which has few (if any) comparable peers globally.

You appear to have a slightly different set of priorities and are more relaxed about the trade-offs that removing the blackout will involve. That is an entirely reasonable stance, but I don't have to agree with your view just because you expressed it.

 

[scousedom]

I am interested in people's views, but it's perfectly fair to challenge those views when I disagree or when I believe the facts they're using to make their argument are objectively wrong.

Overseas fans having greater access to televised English football is, as you say, an oddity. I personally don't think correcting that oddity is worth imperiling the status of non-league football, which has few (if any) comparable peers globally.

You appear to have a slightly different set of priorities and are more relaxed about the trade-offs that removing the blackout will involve. That is an entirely reasonable stance, but I don't have to agree with your view just because you expressed it.

Okay. But when your views are challenged with logic, maybe come back with logic - or challenge that logic - rather than ignore it as a “sideshow” and try and dismiss me and what I’m saying on the grounds I’m some less pure non league fan than you when you haven’t any idea who I am.

Even accepting for a moment (which I don’t but park that) the premise that putting on a single women’s game at 3pm on a Saturday would “imperil”, would have a “catastrophic impact”, would be “terminal” for lower league / non-league men’s football - do you have any more pearls to clutch? - why shouldn’t womens football be on TV at a time that’s unique to it?

Yes, there are too many existing non Sat 3pm time slots taken meaning this is effectively the only one left but… how sound would it be if instead of bowls or rugby league or international dog walking or whatever Grandstand is reduced to showing these days, people (kids, girls) across the country could get to see the best women’s footballers instead and really get into that competition? And why should the “won’t someone think of the fabulously well run models of sensible businesses non league clubs who will all immediately perish” worry that forty middle aged men might not turn up to Canvey Island vs Potters Bar stand in their way of that?

And is that it just possible that, seeing women’s football in that time slot that new audience of kids, girls might not want to go and watch it live, causing it to seek out its lower / non league option…?

People go to non league precisely because it isn’t the PL on telly or the PL in real life. They’ll continue to do that as long as non league is a fun thing to do for them. 3000 people a week think DHFC is and I don’t see how watching Everton vs Leicester women on their sofa will remotely give them the same experience as Champion Hill. If the matchday experience a club offers is good, it will thrive and if it isn’t it won’t and that’s the case with or without a womens game on tv.

 

[Roger D]

For me the concern is the 3.00 women's slot will be a Trojan horse with Sky etc soon pushing to show mens PL there in return for a few more squillion. I don't see football saying no.

The experience in a stadium v a match on TV is indubitably different. However attendance figures on CL days at numerous grounds prove it's a swop many are happy to make.

Why look to protect the lower set up? Personally I think lower level sport - not just football - potentially has a massive role to play in breaking down the worrying levels of social isolation, particularly amongst the elderly, and the national obesity crisis. The smaller teams often run large junior set ups, over 80 teams at Farnham Town last time I checked whilst a mile away Badshot Lea are over 50 I believe. It would be folly to imperil that sort of set up in order that the top six can pay someone another £200k a week..

There's a simple solution, the TV deal is used to compensate lower level teams for lost fans. As long as the big boys aren't prepared to countenance that then I believe there is a case for protecting lower levels from their greed. I'm not just talking non league either, the EFL needs help too.

 

[Alex W]

Okay. But when your views are challenged with logic, maybe come back with logic - or challenge that logic - rather than ignore it as a “sideshow” and try and dismiss me and what I’m saying on the grounds I’m some less pure non league fan than you when you haven’t any idea who I am.

It's nothing personal, I just don't think everyone else in this forum wants to scroll through two people having a multi-page discussion on the nuances of sixth tier German attendance figures that's of peripheral relevance to the title of the thread.

 

[nogojones]

No. There's far too much football on telly already. They should extend the blackout to all week.

 

[Paula_G]

Given the majority of women’s football kicks off at 2pm on a Sunday afternoon it seems a strange choice to put WSL games into that 3pm Saturday slot. The majority of female players I play with and against have allegiances to male football teams (PL, EPL & Non League) & are often more concerned with their progress at 3pm on a Saturday. The 12pm Saturday KOs are okay but players are more than happy to settle down with a beer after their Sunday afternoon exertions and watch a late game.

 

[Pink Panther]

No. There's far too much football on telly already. They should extend the blackout to all week.

When I was growing up the only live televised football was the FA Cup Final and a few (but not all) England games, plus any European club final if an English team was in it. Maybe 5 or 6 games a typical year. The World Cup Finals was a binge every fourth summer, with almost every game shown live as now, but the Euros didn't exist in a recognisable format until 1980 and was only an 8 team tournament until 1992. You had Match of the Day on Saturday night and The Big Match on Sunday afternoon on ITV, each of which featured highlights of 3 selected matches.

Now there's so much live televised football I find it quite dull compared to actually attending a match. I'll watch highlights but I don't think I'd miss it if there was none televised live.

It's fair enough to lobby for a dedicated time slot for showcasing the WSL, but the saturation coverage of men's football leaves only the least attractive slots when fewest people are likely to watch.

 

[scousedom]

It's nothing personal, I just don't think everyone else in this forum wants to scroll through two people having a multi-page discussion on the nuances of sixth tier German attendance figures that's of peripheral relevance to the title of the thread.

Fair. And in that spirit, apologies for continuing it but hopefully it concludes it (although spoiler alert it sort of doesn't) but, I wanted to know the answer so I found it out. The answer is, we're both right.

There is higher attendance lower down in England.....



but it's entirely a function of population density (England having a smaller population but concentrated in a much smaller country) - once you correct for that then Germany has higher attendance.



So I'm happy to shake hands on, you think it will have a huge impact, I think it will be minimal, we've each got a graph. In passing, I take Roger D 's point too on the Tuesday CL drop off, but that drop off is also there when there aren't CL games on, so it's indisputably something that happens anyway, it's not all, or even majority, down to the CL.

I think I just think that after 100 years of deliberately suppressing the womens game, the mens game should be prepared to undo the wrongs it has done. This (3pm tv game for womens football) would be a positive step for womens football, I think that's unarguable; if there is a little collateral damage on the mens side, well, weighed against the damage the mens game has wreaked on the womens, frankly its miniscule by comparison and it should suck it up.

 

[Roger D]

Would mens football sucking it up really aid women's football substantially? Or would it aid a tiny number of elite players and clubs?

When I talk to people out here about the challenges women's sections / clubs face none of them have ever mentioned a lack of TV coverage. They talk about being unable to meet demand from potential players (increasingly an issue in boys football here too), about a lack of pitches and training facilities, about poor quality pitches and training facilities, a lack of trained coaches and off field volunteers and a lack of referees. None of which will be improved by televising more women's football, some could even be exacerbated by it. (The clubs range from grass roots to one division ahead of Hamlet btw.)

If mens football does suck it up and gates at lower levels do suffer badly, are the women's sections in a position to buy the grounds of failed clubs or does the local property developer out muscle them thus making the women's team homeless? If they do get a ground, how many would in a position to take on the full running costs of a ground and to replace the volunteer groundsmen etc who decided that a change of ownership may be time to retire after decades of service?

Women's football absolutely deserves support. Money going into facilities,, coaching and officiating will deliver a much better long term return than the elite hoovering up more money. I simply don't see how taking an action which is likely to weaken lower level mens football will aid women's football when so many of the teams, facilities and officials involved in women's football are intrinsically linked to lower level mens outfits. Take Badshot Lea, their fifty plus sides includes girls and women's outfits. Women's football out here would be weakened if the men's club was imperiled by the loss of the blackout.

 

[scousedom]

Participation - both playing and going to games - will obviously increase if the game is given a platform - albeit a minor one relatively speaking - and people see that it looks fun and see people they identify with doing it. So yes it will help.

And again I think you are massively massively overstating the risk with talk of failed clubs etc. What percentage decline in gates are you factoring in there?

 

[Roger D]

Participation.rates will struggle to increase around here. Many clubs don't have vacancies, there's a lack of teams, pitches, referees and volunteers. Without something changing there, new want to be player simply won't find a team.

As previously mentioned, it's a increasing issue in boys / mixed junior football out here. Farnham Town have one of the biggest junior set ups here, north of 80 sides, but were having to turn players away earlier this season. They can't get any more pitches and it's an open secret locally developers are eying up their main junior base for housing. They have united with Farnham RFC and Aldershot & Fleet Hockey, both based within a couple of minutes walk and also full up at several age groups, to try and drive public opinion against the loss of the playing fields.

It's not possible to put a single cross UK figure on the potential hit. The CL hit varies. At Hamlet in the 90's the hit varied between weeks, depending what the weather was like and who was on TV. (Bad weather and Arsenal = a very bad gate.) However many grass roots clubs live day to day. They have little / no wage budget so can't easily cut outgoings. My gut reaction is a 3.00 Saturday slot for women won't take too many fans away but once the Trojan horse works and Premier League starts appearing at 3.00 on Saturdays some club will be in real trouble.

The next step will then be to brodcast all Premier League matches live (happening in the new Rugby League deal next season). At that point I fear real problems for many community clubs.

 

[Pink Panther]

I think I just think that after 100 years of deliberately suppressing the womens game, the mens game should be prepared to undo the wrongs it has done. This (3pm tv game for womens football) would be a positive step for womens football, I think that's unarguable; if there is a little collateral damage on the mens side, well, weighed against the damage the mens game has wreaked on the womens, frankly its miniscule by comparison and it should suck it up.

If any part of men's football takes a hit from this it'll be our level and lower, while it won't make a blind bit of difference to the Premier League.

If the men's game really wants to make a difference perhaps it should give up one of its current prime live tv slots to the WSL?

My gut reaction is a 3.00 Saturday slot for women won't take too many fans away but once the Trojan horse works and Premier League starts appearing at 3.00 on Saturdays some club will be in real trouble.

The next step will then be to brodcast all Premier League matches live (happening in the new Rugby League deal next season). At that point I fear real problems for many community clubs.

That's my gut feeling too. Is televised women's club football irresistible to many of those who watch men's non-league, even on a casual basis? I suspect its less of a threat than 6 Nations rugby, which often fills pubs on Saturday afternoons, but it will grow more popular with younger generations and we all know the Premier League will inevitably use it as a wedge to push for all their men's games to be broadcast live sooner rather than later.

I found this article interesting, regarding impending changes to the top levels of the women's game:

Women’s football must be wary of following men’s game into financial cesspit | Jonathan Liew

New breakaway competition is expected to attract massive investment but comes with familiar risks of vulture capitalism

www.theguardian.com