Tell me about heat pumps

[danny la rouge]

This is hypothetical as I don’t have the money, but there’s a climate crisis and I want to find out. But I have exhausted my web search attention span threshold.

I live in a flat in Glasgow. It’s not the ground floor and I don’t have a balcony. It can get as cold as - 8 C in winter. (Lowest temp was I believe - 20 C in 1995).

What are my potential options?

 

[ska invita]

You need a sizeable bit of land iirc

 

[High Voltage]

From my very limited "research" into said, heat pumps, the one thing that stuck was that, I think, they're popular in Norway(?) where the temperature hovers around -20ºC in winter, so the balmy temperatures you quote for Glasgow, if you find a solution, you'd probably have to leave the windows open it'd be generating so much heat

This would be for an air heat pump not a ground heat pump

 

[danny la rouge]

From my very limited "research" into said, heat pumps, the one thing that stuck was that, I think, they're popular in Norway(?) where the temperature hovers around -20ºC in winter, so the balmy temperatures you quote for Glasgow, if you find a solution, you'd probably have to leave the windows open it'd be generating so much heat

This would be for an air heat pump not a ground heat pump

I think they tend to have additional heating sources, such as log burners, though. We have only gas ch, no other heating source.

 

[danny la rouge]

You need a sizeable bit of land iirc

For ground source, yes. So that would require city planning, as I don’t have land.

But I was wondering if we got the whole close together, could we have a joint air source? Would that work for several flats and across four storeys?

 

[High Voltage]

I think they tend to have additional heating sources, such as log burners, though. We have only gas ch, no other heating source.

Also, because it's a different level of heat there's a fair to middling chance that you'll need larger radiators. Something about less heat but on all the time so it balances out. They were also banging on about underfloor heating as an and / or heating option

Whichever way it sounded like it could get expensive very quickly

But if your with Octopus (other robbing bastards are available) they have a scheme where they'll claim the governments grant on your behalf and all you have to do is top up the shortfall, which in our case was £2-3000 odd

But then your in Scotland so this may not be an option

 

[skyscraper101]

IIRC the whole cost/benefit of air source heat pumps is largely dependent on how well insulated your flat is. The fact that Nordic homes are way better insulated makes the case for heat pump heating a lot better.

 

[danny la rouge]

IIRC the whole cost/benefit of air source heat pumps is largely dependent on how well insulated your flat is. The fact that Nordic homes are way better insulated makes the case for heat pump heating a lot better.

Yes, that’s likely to be a huge issue. If only we’d known decades ago. (Sarcasm).

 

[Leafster]

For ground source, yes. So that would require city planning, as I don’t have land.

But I was wondering if we got the whole close together, could we have a joint air source? Would that work for several flats and across four storeys?

I watched an interesting Youtube video recently on community ground source heat pump systems.



Check out their other videos on heat pumps as they may give you some insights. As has already been said, insulation is the first thing to consider.

As for air source heat pumps, I think you can get them which fix to the wall (just like all those AC units you see in the US) so being above ground shouldn't be an issue.

 

[what]

Heat pumps are nowhere near as efficient as manufacturers claim, so will cost you alot more to run than they claim. That said as the electricity grid keeps decarbonising they do become a low carbon heat source.
Fairly new to the market are CO2 heat pumps which generate water upto the temperatures a gas boiler does, so can be a replacement without changing rads etc. If you have a combi boiler you're looking to replace then you also need to think about how you're going to generate hot water for you're taps/shower etc.

 

[danny la rouge]

If you have a combi boiler you're looking to replace then you also need to think about how you're going to generate hot water

Aye, well, I was assuming that was part of the technology.

I’m not so much “looking to” do anything. More wondering. I believe the experts who say “the technology currently exists to decarbonise”. I’m just wondering what that looks like for someone where I live (a Victorian sandstone flat in Glasgow), on my “budget” (disability benefits).

 

[High Voltage]

Heat pumps are nowhere near as efficient as manufacturers claim, so will cost you alot more to run than they claim. That said as the electricity grid keeps decarbonising they do become a low carbon heat source.
Fairly new to the market are CO2 heat pumps which generate water upto the temperatures a gas boiler does, so can be a replacement without changing rads etc. If you have a combi boiler you're looking to replace then you also need to think about how you're going to generate hot water for you're taps/shower etc.

Tell me more about these CO2 heat pumps

Only our emersion tank needs replacing. Our boiler, whilst working is getting on. We have an on going concern with the cold water tank / over flow tank / lack of final run out which needs addressing. We have no hot water pressure so running a bath is impractical.

We've looked at a thermal heat pump but lack of available space is knocking that one on the head

We're considering changing to a combi boiler so there's some budget

 

[Leafster]

Aye, well, I was assuming that was part of the technology.

I’m not so much “looking to” do anything. More wondering. I believe the experts who say “the technology currently exists to decarbonise”. I’m just wondering what that looks like for someone where I live (a Victorian sandstone flat in Glasgow), on my “budget” (disability benefits).

There's definitely large costs involved for all householders even if the technology to decarbonise is available.

Something else to consider is that heat pumps are efficient (more efficient than gas or oil boilers) but electricity is more expensive than gas at the moment. It seems to be the same with other heating solutions available like infra-red heating panels. They are very efficient but at current electricity prices I think they're still more expensive than gas central heating.

 

[what]

Aye, well, I was assuming that was part of the technology.

I’m not so much “looking to” do anything. More wondering. I believe the experts who say “the technology currently exists to decarbonise”. I’m just wondering what that looks like for someone where I live (a Victorian sandstone flat in Glasgow), on my “budget” (disability benefits

If youre in a flat, the first question is, are you allowed to mount the external part of the kit on an external wall/in the garden (if there is on)

 

[what]

There's definitely large costs involved for all householders even if the technology to decarbonise is available.

Something else to consider is that heat pumps are efficient (more efficient than gas or oil boilers) but electricity is more expensive than gas at the moment. It seems to be the same with other heating solutions available like infra-red heating panels. They are very efficient but at current electricity prices I think they're still more expensive than gas central heating.

Not sure where the efficiency comes from. The only independent test said they were pants

 

[what]

Tell me more about these CO2 heat pumps

Only our emersion tank needs replacing. Our boiler, whilst working is getting on. We have an on going concern with the cold water tank / over flow tank / lack of final run out which needs addressing. We have no hot water pressure so running a bath is impractical.

We've looked at a thermal heat pump but lack of available space is knocking that one on the head

We're considering changing to a combi boiler so there's some budget

Best thing to do is a google search for CO2 heat pump and take the efficiency figures as a hope not reality

 

[andysays]

This is hypothetical as I don’t have the money, but there’s a climate crisis and I want to find out. But I have exhausted my web search attention span threshold.

I live in a flat in Glasgow. It’s not the ground floor and I don’t have a balcony. It can get as cold as - 8 C in winter. (Lowest temp was I believe - 20 C in 1995).

What are my potential options?

By coincidence, there's a story on the BBC website today about this very subject (on phone so no link)

 

[danny la rouge]

By coincidence, there's a story on the BBC website today about this very subject (on phone so no link)

I’ll look for that, cheers.

 

[equationgirl]

This is hypothetical as I don’t have the money, but there’s a climate crisis and I want to find out. But I have exhausted my web search attention span threshold.

I live in a flat in Glasgow. It’s not the ground floor and I don’t have a balcony. It can get as cold as - 8 C in winter. (Lowest temp was I believe - 20 C in 1995).

What are my potential options?

Not heat pumps.

If you want solar you might need to get everyone in your close (block of flats for the non-Scottish readers) to agree and as there's no subsidies now for residential solar the practicality of using it across multiple dwellings might not work.

Also it got to -20 overnight for multiple nights in the winter of 2010/2011 here in the city.

If you have double glazing and a modern boiler, there might not be more you can doto a traditional Scottish tenement property.

 

[what]

By coincidence, there's a story on the BBC website today about this very subject (on phone so no link)

It quotes the magic efficiency of 3. Only independent field trials I have seen returned average result of about 1.8. Nearly half of that being bandied about. The article also does not address the issue of water for taps etc.

 

[WouldBe]

For ground source, yes. So that would require city planning, as I don’t have land.

But I was wondering if we got the whole close together, could we have a joint air source? Would that work for several flats and across four storeys?

You'd be lucky. Before even considering air source heat pumps your property needs to be highly insulated otherwise it will cost a fortune to run.

 

[what]

You'd be lucky. Before even considering air source heat pumps your property needs to be highly insulated otherwise it will cost a fortune to run.

Just checked my bills elecy is 4.2 times more expensive than gas. So if efficiency is 1.8 then your bill for heating and hot water will be 2.3 times higher. If you can't use a CO2 heat pump then bills will probably be 2.3 times higher for heating and 4.2 times higher for hot water.

 

[danny la rouge]

By coincidence, there's a story on the BBC website today about this very subject (on phone so no link)

It’s here: The truth about heat pumps and the power needed to run them The truth about heat pumps and the power needed to run them

 

[andysays]

It quotes the magic efficiency of 3. Only independent field trials I have seen returned average result of about 1.8. Nearly half of that being bandied about. The article also does not address the issue of water for taps etc.

To be clear, I have no axe to grind in favour of either that article or heat pumps in general.

I'm simply bringing the article to people's attention in case they're interested in reading it.

 

[what]

To be clear, I have no axe to grind in favour of either that article or heat pumps in general.

I'm simply bringing the article to people's attention in case they're interested in reading it.

Not a pop at you, just the lazy journalism around heat pumps, even in the technical press.
Apologies if it came over as a pop against you.

 

[Riklet]

Air source heat pump would be fine if your building is semi well insulated. If a drafty period fridge well not so much. the whole building could have a bigger one in theory too but this is I think less common (sadly).

If you own a place but not got a lot of money im aftaid to say it's a if it aint broke dont fix it kinda situation. Unless you have some cash and can get various grants.

Personally I would get cavity wall insulation and underfloor heating if I could afford it. My gas central heating works fine though.

 

[equationgirl]

Air source heat pump would be fine if your building is semi well insulated. If a drafty period fridge well not so much. the whole building could have a bigger one in theory too but this is I think less common (sadly).

If you own a place but not got a lot of money im aftaid to say it's a if it aint broke dont fix it kinda situation. Unless you have some cash and can get various grants.

Personally I would get cavity wall insulation and underfloor heating if I could afford it. My gas central heating works fine though.

There's no cavity space to incorporate insulation into typical Scottish stoneclad tenement flats. The only way to include insulation is a) to insulate between floors which has to be done by the upstairs neighbour and b) internally insulate which means losing square footage and possibly period decorations like cornicing.

 

[WouldBe]

Personally I would get cavity wall insulation and underfloor heating if I could afford it. My gas central heating works fine though.

Even that's more than likely not good enough for an air source heat pump.

 

[two sheds]

I'm still thinking of a portable air-source heat pump like these:

Best Portable Air Conditioners for 2024 - Versatile Air Conditioners for Easy, Efficient Cooling | Heat Pump Source

Our expert portable air conditioner reviews and buying guide to help you choose from the top portable air conditioners available to buy online.

www.heatpumpsource.co.uk

They're down as air conditioners but some (most?) have heat pump & dehumidifier functions. If I do get one I'll put it upstairs in the room I'm in during the evenings rather than the fan heater so hopefully giving me 3 kW output for 1 kW input. You can get window converter kit so the air hose goes through the window with the rest of the bottom of the window blocked off. As some wise person on urban remarked one of the main problems is the noise - often 50 dB or more. I've been looking out for a quiet version.

I'm also wondering how much benefit that will give me compared with the desiccant dehumidifier I was using last winter - it takes 300 W and warms the air while drying it so does make the room feel warmer, with the fan heater topping up where needed.

 

[teuchter]

This is hypothetical as I don’t have the money, but there’s a climate crisis and I want to find out. But I have exhausted my web search attention span threshold.

I live in a flat in Glasgow. It’s not the ground floor and I don’t have a balcony. It can get as cold as - 8 C in winter. (Lowest temp was I believe - 20 C in 1995).

What are my potential options?

• air source heat pump could work in principle
• problem is finding the outdoor space to put the unit (which looks much like an air conditioning unit)
• people like to say that they can't work in badly insulated flats but it's not as simple as that. Don't write them off.
• if you have access to gas, then it can be cheaper to heat with gas (for now), but that doesn't mean it's more climate friendly to heat with gas.

This problem with finding space for the external units is one that I am keeping an eye on for now, because I think so far most of the demand for them has been in detached/rural/suburban houses where the size, visibility and noise of the unit isn't too much of an issue. But I think there will be increasing demand in urban locations and for flats etc. and I think we might start to see new solutions appear. For example I've seen that some that fit within roofspaces are under trial. And maybe we will see ones that can sit inside dwellings and draw air in through a vent instead. Or sit partly within a window opening. In a few years there might be better options.