Subway vigilante kills Michael Jackson impersonator

[Yossarian]

This is just fucked - a mentally ill man was acting erratically on the subway and some ex-Marine who was not being directly threatened decided to place him in a chokehold until he stopped moving.

The ex-Marine wasn't charged but that might change now that the death has been ruled a homicide.

The Coalition for the Homeless blamed the "complete failure to provide the critical mental health services desperately needed by so many people in our city," calling it an "absolute travesty."

"This horrific incident is yet another reminder of Governor Hochuls' and Mayor Adams' complete failure to provide the critical mental health services desperately needed by so many people in our city," the statement said. "What's more, the fact that someone who took the life of a distressed, mentally-ill human being on a subway could be set free without facing any consequences is shocking, and evidences the City's callous indifference to the lives of those who are homeless and psychiatrically unwell. This is an absolute travesty that must be investigated immediately."

Man involved in subway encounter killed by chokehold; death ruled homicide: medical examiner

Many believe Jordan Neely did not need to die and there is growing backlash and outrage over the case.

abc7ny.com

 

[8ball]

I don’t think the “not directly threatened” thing is relevant at all. Think of those cases where women have been sexually assaulted on public transport and othere who were “not directly threatened” just stood by.

The criticism of mental health services seems totally justified, though.

 

[belboid]

That's fucking horrific. Tho I would have to say your title is kinda misleading and a little trivialising (considering the general Urban view of MJ)

 

[8ball]

That's fucking horrific. Tho I would have to say your title is kinda misleading and a little trivialising (considering the general Urban view of MJ)

Being a fan of MJ is not a capital offense. I think posters here understand that.

 

[Yossarian]

I don’t think the “not directly threatened” thing is relevant at all. Think of those cases where women have been sexually assaulted on public transport and othere who were “not directly threatened” just stood by.

The criticism of mental health services seems totally justified, though.

He apparently hadn't threatened or attacked anybody, according to a witness who recorded video. I think there'd be a very high body count if we all went around killing everybody we saw acting erratically on public transport

"He started screaming in an aggressive manner,” Vazquez told The Post. “He said he had no food, he had no drink, that he was tired and doesn’t care if he goes to jail. He started screaming all these things, took off his jacket, a black jacket that he had, and threw it on the ground.”

That’s when he said the straphanger came up behind Neely and took him to the ground in a chokehold — keeping him there for some 15 minutes, Vazquez said.

 

[8ball]

He apparently hadn't threatened or attacked anybody, according to a witness who recorded video

"He started screaming in an aggressive manner,” Vazquez told The Post. “He said he had no food, he had no drink, that he was tired and doesn’t care if he goes to jail. He started screaming all these things, took off his jacket, a black jacket that he had, and threw it on the ground.”

That’s when he said the straphanger came up behind Neely and took him to the ground in a chokehold — keeping him there for some 15 minutes, Vazquez said.

15 minutes.

Have to wonder what really happened. Anyone with any training knows it takes a tiny fraction of that time in a chokehold to kill someone.

And obv there’s no excuse for a chokehold unless someone is directly threatening someone.

 

[Gromit]

I read 2 mins and 55 seconds on the bbc

 

[Dystopiary]

This is just fucked - a mentally ill man was acting erratically on the subway and some ex-Marine who was not being directly threatened decided to place him in a chokehold until he stopped moving.

The ex-Marine wasn't charged but that might change now that the death has been ruled a homicide.

The Coalition for the Homeless blamed the "complete failure to provide the critical mental health services desperately needed by so many people in our city," calling it an "absolute travesty."

"This horrific incident is yet another reminder of Governor Hochuls' and Mayor Adams' complete failure to provide the critical mental health services desperately needed by so many people in our city," the statement said. "What's more, the fact that someone who took the life of a distressed, mentally-ill human being on a subway could be set free without facing any consequences is shocking, and evidences the City's callous indifference to the lives of those who are homeless and psychiatrically unwell. This is an absolute travesty that must be investigated immediately."

Man involved in subway encounter killed by chokehold; death ruled homicide: medical examiner

Many believe Jordan Neely did not need to die and there is growing backlash and outrage over the case.

abc7ny.com

From that link (bold mine):

Neely has a history of prior arrests and was known by the MTA and police, but many believe Neely did not need to die and there is growing backlash over the case.

That's pretty f'd up reporting. I know America's pretty messed up but surely most people wouldn't think someone who'd been in trouble with the police "needed to die." You'd hope so anyway. JFC.

 

[petee]

"He started screaming in an aggressive manner,” Vazquez told The Post. “He said he had no food, he had no drink, that he was tired and doesn’t care if he goes to jail. He started screaming all these things, took off his jacket, a black jacket that he had, and threw it on the ground.”

having been in a subway car as recently as this very afternoon with someone who was getting loud and weird, that in the quote is quite enough. you're trapped: a lifetime NYer like me will know how to extricate himself but alot of people won't and some cars will have locked doors at either end, and you don't know what's going to happen next.

I don't hold it against the marine for intervening, but I imagine you could take the guy down, pin his arms, and someone will call 911 and/or pull the cord. people having episodes grow superhuman strength: a friend of mine who's smaller than I am had a cocaine freakout once and admitted it took half the stationhouse to hold him. but he survived, so there's a way to do it that that doesn't involve choking someone.

 

[Riklet]

15 mins in a chokehold cos someone was aggressive and nuts.

the guy should be tried for murder or manslaughter for sure. The states is crazy.

 

[skyscraper101]

I remember this guy. He used to feature in some of Joey Boots videos (ex-Howard Stern Wack Packer, also now deceased) around New York City.

 

[A380]

It’s very sad how many people with untreated psychosis ( yes, using that as shorthand for any number of conditions ) you see in American cities.

Sadly whilst you hardly ever saw this in public spaces here in the UK the decade plus of fucking the NHS means that it’s starting to be seen.

 

[A380]

.

 

[Spymaster]

The ex-Marine wasn't charged but that might change now that the death has been ruled a homicide.

Any death caused by another person is a homicide, but not necessarily murder or manslaughter.

From the currently available reporting it seems difficult to justify self defence so it's one worth watching.

 

[A380]

Any death caused by another person is a homicide, but not necessarily murder or manslaughter.

From the currently available reporting it seems difficult to justify self defence so it's one worth watching.

Not quite. Accidents or lawful killing aren’t homicide

In the UK homicide is, from memory, murder, manslaughter, infanticide, and death by dangerous driving.

 

[Spymaster]

Not quite. Accidents or lawful killing are’t homicide

Not in the US. Pretty sure homicide can arise from an accident with no intent.

 

[A380]

Not in the US. Pretty sure homicide can arise from an accident with no intent.

You will pronouncing aluminium weirdly next.

 

[MickiQ]

Not quite. Accidents or lawful killing are’t homicide

In the UK homicide is, from memory, murder, manslaughter, infanticide, child destruction and death by dangerous driving.

If you kill someone in self-defence in the UK then that is an absolute defence in a court of law, I would imagine even more so in the US. Even though he wasn't directIy threatened I doubt the marine will come to trial and even if he does I find it hard to imagine any court likely convicting him. Putting him on trial doesn't even sound like a good idea to me anyway because the message it immediately sends is don't get involved if you see someone else being threatened in public.
Yes it's a tragedy that Neely died but any blame if any for this situation lies with the lack of mental health services in the USA in general and NY in particular not with some guy who probably thought he was doing a good deed, misjudged how much force was needed and probably feels bad about it.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I read 2 mins and 55 seconds on the bbc

I choked my Judo teacher unconscious in less than 90 seconds. He hadn't tapped to submit, so I let him go and he fell forwards out cold.

 

[Sasaferrato]

If you kill someone in self-defence in the UK then that is an absolute defence in a court of law, I would imagine even more so in the US. Even though he wasn't directIy threatened I doubt the marine will come to trial and even if he does I find it hard to imagine any court likely convicting him. Putting him on trial doesn't even sound like a good idea to me anyway because the message it immediately sends is don't get involved if you see someone else being threatened in public.
Yes it's a tragedy that Neely died but any blame if any for this situation lies with the lack of mental health services in the USA in general and NY in particular not with some guy who probably thought he was doing a good deed, misjudged how much force was needed and probably feels bad about it.

I think we must disagree on this.

A choke hold is never justified, not ever. They are deadly. I would have expected a 24 year old marine to be able to subdue and restrain someone without using a choke hold.

 

[Yossarian]

If you kill someone in self-defence in the UK then that is an absolute defence in a court of law, I would imagine even more so in the US. Even though he wasn't directIy threatened I doubt the marine will come to trial and even if he does I find it hard to imagine any court likely convicting him. Putting him on trial doesn't even sound like a good idea to me anyway because the message it immediately sends is don't get involved if you see someone else being threatened in public.
Yes it's a tragedy that Neely died but any blame if any for this situation lies with the lack of mental health services in the USA in general and NY in particular not with some guy who probably thought he was doing a good deed, misjudged how much force was needed and probably feels bad about it.

It seems like the person who most needed defending in this case was Neely, not the subway passengers. I don't know what Marine training involves but the man must surely have been aware that chokeholds can kill quickly.

 

[Riklet]

In Con Air the bad ex military guy went to jail so fingers crossed.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It seems like the person who most needed defending in this case was Neely, not the subway passengers. I don't know what Marine training involves but the man must surely have been aware that chokeholds can kill quickly.

In our unarmed combat training, choke holds were absolutely forbidden, for that very reason. A wrongly applied choke hold can also cause a broken neck. It takes a remarkably small amount of lateral pressure to dislocate the cervical vertebrae.

 

[MickiQ]

It seems like the person who most needed defending in this case was Neely, not the subway passengers. I don't know what Marine training involves but the man must surely have been aware that chokeholds can kill quickly.

Neely shouldn't have been there at all he should have been somewhere else being properly treated. Yes I'm sure that the guy applying the chokehold knew that they could kill but that they could incapacitate as well. As for 15 mins that is based on the guesswork of one witness. Maybe he timed it but looking at your watch and checking how long the chokehold was maintained strikes me as odd behaviour in that situation.
How do we know that Neely's probable poor health didn't contribute to his death? The guy has probably been trained the basis he might have to choke other fit young men not someone like Neely.
It isn't up to us of course but based on my reading of that article I'm giving the marine the benefit of doubt and consider it as a tragic accident. We will see how it turns out but I personally would be amazed if doesn't get dropped.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Neely shouldn't have been there at all he should have been somewhere else being properly treated. Yes I'm sure that the guy applying the chokehold knew that they could kill but that they could incapacitate as well. As for 15 mins that is based on the guesswork of one witness. Maybe he timed it but looking at your watch and checking how long the chokehold was maintained strikes me as odd behaviour in that situation.
How do we know that Neely's probable poor health didn't contribute to his death? The guy has probably been trained the basis he might have to choke other fit young men not someone like Neely.
It isn't up to us of course but based on my reading of that article I'm giving the marine the benefit of doubt and consider it as a tragic accident. We will see how it turns out but I personally would be amazed if doesn't get dropped.

I must say that your response astonishes me.

 

[MickiQ]

I must say that your response astonishes me.

Why? you don't have to agree with it but why does it astonish you?

 

[Joe Chi Min]

Black People Twitter on reddit was quite chilling to read on this. Comments on their were a mixture of ‘what the fuck?’ with a side of ‘everybody knows NY public transport is crazy’. Even worse than that was the apparent apathy I picked-up from a good number of people toward it.

The images are fucking gruesome, that white dude wasn’t letting go for hell nor high heaven. He only let go when the victims bowels released his effluence.

Neely shouldn't have been there at all he should have been somewhere else being properly treated. Yes I'm sure that the guy applying the chokehold knew that they could kill but that they could incapacitate as well. As for 15 mins that is based on the guesswork of one witness. Maybe he timed it but looking at your watch and checking how long the chokehold was maintained strikes me as odd behaviour in that situation.
How do we know that Neely's probable poor health didn't contribute to his death? The guy has probably been trained the basis he might have to choke other fit young men not someone like Neely.
It isn't up to us of course but based on my reading of that article I'm giving the marine the benefit of doubt and consider it as a tragic accident. We will see how it turns out but I personally would be amazed if doesn't get dropped.

It takes no more than half-a-dozen to a dozen seconds to put somebody to sleep like that. That motherfucker held on for 3 minutes solid.

 

[Joe Chi Min]

It’s very sad how many people with untreated psychosis ( yes, using that as shorthand for any number of conditions ) you see in American cities.

Sadly whilst you hardly ever saw this in public spaces here in the UK the decade plus of fucking the NHS means that it’s starting to be seen.

I was a witness to a man trying to break the (locked) doors of a Tesco Express on my 2nd night back (they were locked because of his appalling behaviour).

You must live a very sheltered life cos I have seen/and do see this stuff all the time in my corner of Little England.

 

[krtek a houby]

It’s very sad how many people with untreated psychosis ( yes, using that as shorthand for any number of conditions ) you see in American cities.

Sadly whilst you hardly ever saw this in public spaces here in the UK the decade plus of fucking the NHS means that it’s starting to be seen.

Remember seeing it quite a fair bit, the so called care in the community replacing the treatment of mentally ill people.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I must say that your response astonishes me.

Because you not only appear to think that the use of a potentially lethal action (indeed, it was a lethal action) was justified, and have defended the person who used it.