Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

SPGB

Crises are the result of disproportionate growth between different sectors of the economy - the relative overproduction of one sector in relation to the demand from some other sector (s) which then generates ripple effects that spread outwards to engulf most of the economy. This is because enterprises are blindly producing for a market in the expectation of profit which may not always be forthcoming. Crises take a cyclical form. Capitalism restores the conditions of profitability by such means as the cheapening of the means of production , as Marx argued, but as production steps up again the same tendency towads disproprotionate growth manifests itself once again leading to yet another crisis. It is part of the nature of capitalism
In fairness to Butcher's, this isn't really Marx's explanation of the economic crisis, it's a underconsumptionist, Keynesian, explanation. The crisis does come from the change in the ratio of dead labour to living labour, the rise in the organic composition of capital.

LTV. If profit comes from living labour, and not from dead labour (ie factory, machinery raw materials etc), as the level of investment in dead labour rises proportionately to the level of investment in living labour, so the rate of profit falls.
The rate of profit = Total investment ratio to profit. So £100 invested in £50 dead labour and £50 living labour, with £10 profit, has a 10 per cent rate of profit. However if because of pressures the ratio was shifted to So £100 invested in £70 dead labour and £30 living labour, the proportion of investment in that that produces profit, living labour, is reduced and so is the rate of profit. And so the labour theory of value is central to the crisis.

Bloody hell, even in your crude mechanical marxism you should be able to see how it outlines the pressures that capital faces from the w/c. The rise in organic compostion of capital caused by intra-capitalist competition driven by rising labour costs, the associated concentration of capital and overproduction, the local monopolies leading to the same, the falling rate of profit from the decreasing amount of variable capital - all offest by counter-tendencies which can themselves heighten crisis and so on - it's all there if only you know how to read Marx.
:D:D If only we had Butch's higher level of consciousness. hypocrite.:D
 
I posted this link to counter the accusation that the SPGB is vanguardist. This article from the Socialist Standard sets out our case against political leadership.
I would have thought that if the SPGB is a vanguardist Party this article would be grist to the mill of those that criticise it.

I look forward to your thoughts.

Butch only cherry picks attributes from SPGB which fit his childish definition vanguardist.
 
In fairness to Butcher's, this isn't really Marx's explanation of the economic crisis, it's a underconsumptionist, Keynesian, explanation. The crisis does come from the change in the ratio of dead labour to living labour, the rise in the organic composition of capital.

LTV. If profit comes from living labour, and not from dead labour (ie factory, machinery raw materials etc), as the level of investment in dead labour rises proportionately to the level of investment in living labour, so the rate of profit falls.
The rate of profit = Total investment ratio to profit. So £100 invested in £50 dead labour and £50 living labour, with £10 profit, has a 10 per cent rate of profit. However if because of pressures the ratio was shifted to So £100 invested in £70 dead labour and £30 living labour, the proportion of investment in that that produces profit, living labour, is reduced and so is the rate of profit. And so the labour theory of value is central to the crisis.
please explain why dead labour (or, more concisely, machinery and infrastructure) would be more pricey than workers. because, in the long term, I don't see it that way at all.
 
but marx and labour the theory value never said Capitalism is a merry go round that passes fixed points in it's cycle every few years.

For marx the economic crisis was innate to capitalism, produced by the capitalists, not the working class. According to the labour theory of value, and it's developments in the capital volume one, the economic crisis occurs because of the rise in the organic composition of capital, and this is driven by the capitalists raison d'être, "Accumulate, accumulate! That is Moses and the prophets". Without going into what the organic composition of capitalis etc., it is fact that marx firmly placed responsibility for the economic crisis with the capitalists, period.

PS. You need to clarify this; "The crises are a result of the working class and capitalists reaction to theses crises are reactions to the the working class."
The crises are reactions to the crises??????????:confused:


You can't have a capitalist class without a working class. It's a dialectic. That's how I understand it anyway.
 
please explain why dead labour (or, more concisely, machinery and infrastructure) would be more pricey than workers. because, in the long term, I don't see it that way at all.
Over investment.

Sorry mate, don't really want to get sidetracked. I am much more interested in Butcher's cliques underdtanding of consciousness, and how we get from capitalism to anarchism. Can I have a rain check on that question please?
 
Over investment.

Sorry mate, don't really want to get sidetracked. I am much more interested in Butcher's cliques underdtanding of consciousness, and how we get from capitalism to anarchism. Can I have a rain check on that question please?

There is no consciousness
 
This brings us back to the interesting question to Butchers, random, louis, jim, freddy etc.
There is no consciousness
If they reject the notion of contradictory levels of consciousness, how do they explain the working classes choosing to not to control of the means of production? How do you explain them not sharing your different, 'better' level of understanding of capitalism and the anarchism alternative?







Also explain to me how these statements are wrong or right;

Butchers, Jim, Random Freddy etc,,, are saying they have no consciousness whatsoever of what they are trying to achieve, and how to achieve it?

The working class have no consciousness whatsoever of what you are trying to achieve, and how to achieve it?
 
This brings us back to the interesting question to Butchers, random, louis, jim, freddy etc. If they reject the notion of contradictory levels of consciousness, how do they explain the working classes choosing to not to control of the means of production? How do you explain them not sharing your different, 'better' level of understanding of capitalism and the anarchism alternative?

Also explain to me how these statements are wrong or right;

Butchers, Jim, Random Freddy etc,,, are saying they have no consciousness whatsoever of what they are trying to achieve, and how to achieve it?

The working class have no consciousness whatsoever of what you are trying to achieve, and how to achieve it?

I dunno who else is saying there is no consciousness but I am. I've got no explanation for people having a different view of capitalism to me, I haven't asked everyone, anyone in fact. I don't see any need - they don't need me, or Butchers or Random or the SPGB or you and whatever strange sect you belong too. People do what they need to do in the situations they find themselves in and if those people are working class then they are by definition in conflict with capitalism whether they think of it in those terms or not. COnsciousness is just a silly way for people like you to think themselves important. You aren't. Not even slightly.
 
I dunno who else is saying there is no consciousness but I am. I've got no explanation for people having a different view of capitalism to me, I haven't asked everyone, anyone in fact. I don't see any need - they don't need me, or Butchers or Random or the SPGB or you and whatever strange sect you belong too. People do what they need to do in the situations they find themselves in and if those people are working class then they are by definition in conflict with capitalism whether they think of it in those terms or not. COnsciousness is just a silly way for people like you to think themselves important. You aren't. Not even slightly.


:cool:
 
In fairness to Butcher's, this isn't really Marx's explanation of the economic crisis, it's a underconsumptionist, Keynesian, explanation. The crisis does come from the change in the ratio of dead labour to living labour, the rise in the organic composition of capital.


Well no disproportionality theory is not the same thing as underconsumptionist theory at all. It is about uneven growth between different sectors of the economy due to the fact that enterprises produce "blindly" for the market and do not coordinate their output with other enterprises. So there is a relative overproduction in one part of the economy leading to cutbacks which have knock on effects resulting ultimiately in an economic crisis.

This is Marx's theory of crisis. It is not the same as the "profit squeeze" thesis advanced by people like Glyn and Sutcliffe in British Capitalism, Workers and the Profit Squeeze (Penguin Books, 1972) - a thesis which I think Butchers holds though I am not entiurely sure about this. Admittedly it can easily be read as a marxist theory of crisis insofar as Marx himself talked about the "fall in the rate of profit consequent upon the general rise of wages" Value Price and Profit) At first blush this might appear to lend credence to the claim that economic crisis is a consequence of workers "pricing themselves out of job", as the expression goes, by imposing unrealistic wage demands on their employers, eroding the latter's profit margins. Marx's observation above as well as his comment that " crises are always prepared by a period in which wages generally rise" might seem to support this conclusion.

However, Marx was adamant that the wage rate was the dependent variable, while the rate of capital accumulation or investment (which in turn is heavily influenced by the rate of profit) was the independent variable.(Capital Volume I p. 770). In other words, the ability of workers to secure increased wages was dependent upon the profitability of the businesses employing them. This was the point I put to Butchers but he evidently didnt see the significance of it. He is mistaking the symptoms for the cause of the problem.

If profit margins are too low, a large wage increase could jeopardise the very viability of the business. Then, should that business collapse, the workers employed in it would cease to have a job. Not only that, the consequence of this would be to swell the "industrial reserve army" of the unemployed. The larger the size of that army, the greater the downward pressure it would tend to exert on the wages of workers still currently employed. That, in turn, would tend to enhance the profit margins of existing firms and thus, on the face of it, serve to avert a crisis.

In any case as people like Brenner have pointed out, the crisis of 1974 was a fairly generalised one affecting a large number of countries irrespective of whether they had a strong tradition of labour militancy or not ("The economics of global turbulence", New Left Review no. 229 May/June 1998 ). So it is difficult to see how labour militancy as such could have been a factor in this crisis. Rather it is something that tends to be responsive to changing economic circumstances instead of directly bring about these changing circumstances


BTW there is quite an interesting article from the Education department of the SPGB on economic crises. Its a bit dated but still very useful . Check it out at http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/education/Education Series Crises.html
 
I dunno who else is saying there is no consciousness but I am.
so there is no are uniting philosophical strands, which groups all you u75 anarchists? It's just pure coincidence the u75 anarchists say exactly the same things?

I've got no explanation for people having a different view of capitalism to me, I haven't asked everyone, anyone in fact. I don't see any need - they don't need me, or Butchers or Random or the SPGB or you and whatever strange sect you belong too. People do what they need to do in the situations they find themselves in and if those people are working class then they are by definition in conflict with capitalism whether they think of it in those terms or not. COnsciousness is just a silly way for people like you to think themselves important. You aren't. Not even slightly
you seem talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. You, Butchers, etc have clearly delineated you think you have a superior, higher level of consciousness of what needs to be done, Vanguardism, etc in this thread,,,,, haven't you??


It seems to me it is clear, butcher's is far more conscious of anarchism, than anyone I know in my neighbourhood. He clearly has a better understanding of capitalism. To deny the fucking obvious, is nonesense. Well that IS, from what I can discern, what they are claiming. "There is no difference between the political revolutionary anarchist, and the mechanic not interested in politics whatsoever." It is like saying there is no difference between the brain surgeon, and the hairdresser when it comes to cutting hair???? Your position doesn't make sense, and none you even try to explain it.

ETA "sect"? Is that how anarchists refer to people they politically disagree with? You don't think that's a bit elitist, arrogant?
And for your information, I am a member of no political organization, and I am indeed of no consequence to the class struggle, or feel a need to be. Can you say the same?
 
Quote wars will get you nowhere - lenin said many things at many different times depending on what specific aims were at that point. Why aren't you quoting his anti-vanguardist stuff from the years immediately after 1905? I know why and so do you - because, like Marx, you can cherry pick from his millions of words on millions of issues.

And you didn't even cherry pick a good one :D You've given me one in which Lenin argues that only the vanguard party with the support of the conscious majority of the w/c (i.e before the revolution) must take power and instill socialist consciousness in the non-w/c sections of the population. You didn't miss the very important difference between the 'proletariat' and the ' toilers and exploited' did you? Oh yes you did.

What a pathetic attempt to rationalise the irrational.
 
chinglish-signs-19-fragrant-and-hot-marxism-560x417.jpg
 
and I am indeed of no consequence to the class struggle, or feel a need to be. Can you say the same?

I think I just did[/QUOTE]

An anarchist, anarchism, has no intention/design/"need" to be of "consequence to the class struggle"? Think you've got that wrong mate. Anarchist activists clearly do have vested class and vocational interests in,,,,, and a desire/need for the working class to adopt those tactics, which will best suite the working classes objectives. You therefore do have a vested interest in 'showing' those tactics are superior to,,,,,, say Vanguardism. Why else, besides ego, would Butchers etc spend 1400 post's 'delineating' the 'inferiority' of the SPGB's 'Vanguardism'?
 
I've come back to this, because my discussion with you as reiterated my point "axe to grind".
You see GD, if you misunderstand butch, that's your fault. if Butch misunderstands you, that's your fault. And if he ask's you to clarify, your obligated, BUT if you ask him to clarify anarchism, he throws a hissy or stonewalls.

Your waisting your time, if you are interested in an honest exchange of ideas.
You've got an axe to grind but all you're achieving is making yourself look like a twat.
I wouldn't say I have an axe to grind, I'm intrigued. It has always fascinated me how butchers can condemn any expression that somebody can hold a superior understanding as elitist, whilst he for 64000 post's appears to flaunt his 'superior' understanding.

The other thing that intrigues me is the way U75 anarchists, collectively, behave like clams. Look at this thread for example. The SPGB have been absolutely battered, [mostly justified IMHO] from every political direction, and yet they have steadfastly attempted to engage in discussion of their politics. Like every other topic the U75 anarchists have laid in, unabel to keep their mouths shut, when discussing other people's ideas. But as soon as the conversation turns to the U75 anarchists views, like clams their mouths snap shut. They "if you misunderstand butch, that's your fault. if Butch misunderstands you, that's your fault. And if he ask's you to clarify, your obligated, BUT if you ask him to clarify anarchism, he throws a hissy or stonewalls."

And this isn't just about anarchism. Butchers must have been asked about 100 time, for his definition of Vanguardism. And to be fair to Butchers he did throw people a few scraps,,, eventually. But there has been no honest discussion of his definition. He just imposes it, with no justification, and even in recognition of the fact that Vanguard parties would not accept that the SPGB is Vanguardist. His attitude is elitist and arrogant, crimes he postulates against the Vanguardists.

In the end, the SPGB don't really interest me. They have made crystal clear their position, it makes sense, but I disagree with it. U75 anarchists do intrigue me, because they make no sense. And their reticence to discuss their ideas, only makes it more intriguing. I am a bit sad, like that, I admit.:D it isn't about a need for me to feel "superior", it is just the entertainment of understanding other people's views.
 
The other thing that intrigues me is the way U75 anarchists, collectively, behave like clams.

We anarchists don't actually agree on anything because agreeing with anyone on anything just shows that you haven't thought it through for yourself. Only people in cults agree with each other.
 
We anarchists don't actually agree on anything because agreeing with anyone on anything just shows that you haven't thought it through for yourself. Only people in cults agree with each other.

What utter fabricated nonsense, if it is indeed the case that, "Only people in cults agree with each other." how do you explain the fact that the greater majority agree the earth is round? Or that the moon does not consist of cheese. By your definition the greater majority belong to the cult of round earthers.
 
What utter fabricated nonsense, if it is indeed the case that, "Only people in cults agree with each other." how do you explain the fact that the greater majority agree the earth is round? Or that the moon does not consist of cheese. By your definition the greater majority belong to the cult of round earthers.

He may have been taking the piss slightly...
 
your tagline clearly isn't true.
[/QUOTE]
He may have been taking the piss slightly...
[/QUOTE] if only, YouSir, he was jesting. And no, Spanky Longhorn, this isn't a case of Two Sheds being "daft". Two Sheds is being honest. This is precisely the U75 anarchists 'excuse' "We anarchists don't actually agree on anything because agreeing with anyone on anything just shows that you haven't thought it through for yourself. Only people in cults agree with each other.". And so if there is any "daftness" or perhaps absurdity, it does not lie with two sheds, it lies with U75 anarchism. This is indeed the basis of upon which they CONSTANTLY refuse to debate anarchism. And when I say, CONSTANTLY refuse to debate anarchism, I mean> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=15723575
 
if only, YouSir, he was jesting. And no, Spanky Longhorn, this isn't a case of Two Sheds being "daft". Two Sheds is being honest. This is precisely what the U75 anarchists 'agree' on "We anarchists don't actually agree on anything because agreeing with anyone on anything just shows that you haven't thought it through for yourself. Only people in cults agree with each other.". And so if there is any "daftness" or perhaps absurdity, it does not lie with two sheds, it lies with U75 anarchism. This is indeed the basis of upon which they CONSTANTLY refuse to debate anarchism. And when I say, CONSTANTLY refuse to debate anarchism, I mean> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=15723575

I agree with that, actually.
 
[/QUOTE]so go on, clarify. Be as honest as the SPGB, and explain your 'logic'. We will not hang all U75 anarchists by your words, we will accept for the purpose of a novel experience, debating anarchism, you speak only for yourself.


PS. Every single post I have made to this thread has been in the same vain. I have asked Louis, Random, Jim W, Butchers, Fred, Two Sheds etc questions not just on anarchism, but on their personal opinions, and not one of them has answered honestly.
 
if only, YouSir, he was jesting. And no, Spanky Longhorn, this isn't a case of Two Sheds being "daft". Two Sheds is being honest. This is precisely the U75 anarchists 'excuse' "We anarchists don't actually agree on anything because agreeing with anyone on anything just shows that you haven't thought it through for yourself. Only people in cults agree with each other.". And so if there is any "daftness" or perhaps absurdity, it does not lie with two sheds, it lies with U75 anarchism. This is indeed the basis of upon which they CONSTANTLY refuse to debate anarchism. And when I say, CONSTANTLY refuse to debate anarchism, I mean> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=15723575

As Urban's quietest (and laziest) Anarchist I'll say that I do, on occasion, agree with people, but that may be besides the point. Either way I wouldn't choose the handful of people who actively expouse Anarchism on Urban as the ultimate exhibitors of what most Anarchists are like, largely because there is no generalised archetype tied to the beliefs. You just don't get on with a few people, that's not a political issue (and it's not one that I'd take any sides on).
 
Either way I wouldn't choose the handful of people who actively expouse Anarchism on Urban as the ultimate exhibitors of what most Anarchists are like, largely because there is no generalised archetype tied to the beliefs.
that's complete utter excuse. There is probably more divisions and less of a generalised archetypal Marxist, it doesn't mean we can't discuss Marxism.

There is no excuse for not explaining what you as an individual anarchists stand for, and any element that you would suggest, IYO, all anarchists share in common. For example,,,,,,,,, I'm going to come back on Two Sheds.
 
Back
Top Bottom